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bris!

  
 
bitchiekittie
17:02 / 19.03.02
I was just invited to my first bris

wait.

I was just invited to a bris, for the very first time

Im not going. but Im left wondering about the significance of this ritual - I really know nothing about it. well, I know what they do, but thats about the extent of it. anything?
 
 
The Apple-Picker
17:21 / 19.03.02
Um, I don't know what a bris is.


And Mirriam-Webster won't tell me, either.

[ 19-03-2002: Message edited by: theapplepicker ]
 
 
kid coagulant
17:25 / 19.03.02
Ritual genital mutilation. You know, for kids (boys specifically).
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:35 / 19.03.02
Why aren't you going, bk? Aren't you at least curious to see what the rituals are like?
 
 
The Planet of Sound
17:40 / 19.03.02
quote:Originally posted by invix:
Ritual genital mutilation. You know, for kids (boys specifically).

Gggggggrrrrrrrrrrr..... we've discussed this in the Headshop.
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:41 / 19.03.02
actually, no. while Im not particularly squeamish (used to work in a path lab) babies crying in pain make me feel bad. the first time or two my girl got her shots, I cried myself (no, Im not joking). not to mention that I dont feel too terribly close to the mother, who is a coworker, and dont feel an obligation to go see it at 930 on a sunday morning
 
 
w1rebaby
17:45 / 19.03.02
is this just a reaction to the cock threads?

you know, they're not as valuable if they don't have the original cover
 
 
Mourne Kransky
17:55 / 19.03.02
Hope you enjoy it, bk. Think I'd wince and, perhaps, wish that "Covenant with the Lord" had involved being spanked with a tulip or something less permanent.

You might find this recent thread in the headshop informative, particularly the links Ganesh posted.

However, each to his own. I'm astonished it never caught on in Calvinist working class Scotland, really. Pleased though, nevertheless, to be intact still.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:02 / 19.03.02
A bris, for those of you who haven't sussed it out yet, is the ritual circumcision of an infant boy practiced under Judaeism.

From what I've heard, it's far less traumatic for an infant than for an older child- many babies sleep right through it, as the nerves in the penis aren't developed yet- and healing is rapid.

Which still leaves the vexed question of whether it's right to perform such an operation on someone who's to young to give consent, as disscussed in the thread that ZoCher has linked to above.
 
 
bitchiekittie
18:19 / 19.03.02
honestly, Im just wondering about the religious/historical/traditional significance and meaning. (which zocher mentioned but I need more!)
 
 
Turk
18:37 / 19.03.02
Teaches the boys to respect their parents. If they are willing cut bits of my willy off when I'm a baby, what will they do when I'm bad?
 
 
Reason
19:50 / 19.03.02
er. oops.

[ 20-03-2002: Message edited by: Reason ]
 
 
The Planet of Sound
19:54 / 19.03.02
quote:Originally posted by D:
Teaches the boys to respect their parents. If they are willing cut bits of my willy off when I'm a baby, what will they do when I'm bad?

Which, as I was trying to suggest in the thread mentioned, just may be the psychological imperative for the operation in the first place; calling Doctor Frood!
 
 
Captain Zoom
23:00 / 19.03.02
originally by Mordant C@rnival:

quote: From what I've heard, it's far less traumatic for an infant than for an older child- many babies sleep right through it, as the nerves in the penis aren't developed yet- and healing is rapid.



That, my friend, is pure myth. Not only are the nerves there, but the foreskin is still actually attached to the head of the penis. It's not until a little boy reaches 4 or 5 that the foreskin begins to move independantly of the rest of the penis. A circumcision causes the foreskin not only to be cut away from where it attaches for those of us with one, but also to be ripped away from the head. I don't care how politically incorrect it is to say this about a sacred belief of millions of people, but it is a disgusting, barbaric practice. I could not feel more strongly about this.

Zoom.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:05 / 19.03.02
I stand corrected. Actually, I sort of hunch over in vicarious pain and tearful nauseated horror corrected, but you get the general idea.

[ 20-03-2002: Message edited by: Mordant C@rnival ]
 
 
higuita
06:57 / 20.03.02
quote:Originally posted by Captain Zoom:
[QB A circumcision causes the foreskin not only to be cut away from where it attaches for those of us with one, but also to be ripped away from the head.
Zoom.[/QB]

Ow, ow, ow. Fuck. Ow.

And to think Mummy nearly made me have one of these for medical reasons.

For those that are interested, the wee hole wasn't big enough and I kept doing ickle balloon impressions.

So they thought about surgery, and then it ripped by itself. Now that's what I call baby empowerment. Or sheer mortal terror at having part of your old chap hacked off.

I still wonder what it must have felt like when it ripped. I wonder if I'm psychologically scarred.

Anyone know how I could tell?
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
07:08 / 20.03.02
quote:Originally posted by bitchiekittie:
honestly, Im just wondering about the religious/historical/traditional significance and meaning. (which zocher mentioned but I need more!)

Well, bris means "covenant", IIRC - the circumcision ceremony is in fact a bris milah, with its origins in cirumcision rituals common among the tribes of the area - the smart money is on this being a fairly common fertility or initiation ritual, rather than for any particular reasons of hygeine - the Philistines didn't circumcise, and are not generally attested to have limped through the Holy Land with crippling cockrot.

Anyway, circumcision is a sign of the Jewish covenant with God - check it out, Genesis 17:

[b]Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. And I will give to you, and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your descendants after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you. He that is eight days old among you shall be circumcised; every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house, or bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Pity poor old Abraham, who at the time was knocking 100 and had to get the snip. Nasty.

As for why the eighth day, probably to avoid wasting time circumcising children who are goign to die anyway; if you leave it eight days they will certainly have seen a sabbath, and are likely to be past most of the immediately postpartum mortality risks.

So, the bris is supposed to act as a physical representation of the relationship between God and the Jews, and his covenant with them that they are the chosen people, and to provide a sense of continuity and connection with Jewish history and culture. Also, it provides the joke about the Mohel's retirement present.

[ 20-03-2002: Message edited by: The Haus that shot Liberty Valance ]
 
 
grant
16:55 / 20.03.02
Note: Abraham circumcised himself and Ishmael first, before Isaac was born. Ishmael is the founder of the Islamic nation. Who also practice circumcision.

And poor Abraham... how about this: I, the LORD want you to invade these fortified cities, oh you desert wanderers. But first, would you mind lopping off part of your genitals? Yeah, I understand the chafing can be a bitch in combat, but still....

quote:Joshua 5: The Circumcision and Passover at Gilgal
1 So it was, when all the kings of the Amorites who were on the west side of the Jordan, and all the kings of the Canaanites who were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of the Jordan from before the children of Israel until we[1] had crossed over, that their heart melted; and there was no spirit in them any longer because of the children of Israel.
2At that time the LORD said to Joshua, "Make flint knives for yourself, and circumcise the sons of Israel again the second time." 3So Joshua made flint knives for himself, and circumcised the sons of Israel at the hill of the foreskins.[2] 4And this is the reason why Joshua circumcised them: All the people who came out of Egypt who were males, all the men of war, had died in the wilderness on the way, after they had come out of Egypt. 5For all the people who came out had been circumcised, but all the people born in the wilderness, on the way as they came out of Egypt, had not been circumcised. 6For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people who were men of war, who came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they did not obey the voice of the LORD--to whom the LORD swore that He would not show them the land which the LORD had sworn to their fathers that He would give us, "a land flowing with milk and honey." 7Then Joshua circumcised their sons whom He raised up in their place; for they were uncircumcised, because they had not been circumcised on the way.
8So it was, when they had finished circumcising all the people, that they stayed in their places in the camp till they were healed.

Might be a bad idea to bring that up in a bris.

Stick to the (difficult to understand) message of Deutoronomy:
quoteeuteronomy 30
5Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers. 6And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.
7"Also the LORD your God will put all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate you, who persecuted you.
 
 
MJ-12
17:05 / 20.03.02
quote:Originally posted by grant:
how about this: I, the LORD want you to invade these fortified cities, oh you desert wanderers. But first, would you mind lopping off part of your genitals?

Well, that would put me in the mood to kill something.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:22 / 20.03.02
quote:Abraham circumcised himself... first
now that's dedication
 
 
grant
17:44 / 20.03.02
Think they've got "Hill of the Foreskins" postcards?
 
 
MJ-12
17:58 / 20.03.02
You'd think they would have figured something was up when Joshua said "meet me at the Hill of Foreskins later. I just need to finish chipping out this flint knife."
 
 
bitchiekittie
18:36 / 20.03.02
quote:Originally posted by grant:
Think they've got "Hill of the Foreskins" postcards?

hey, Id pay big money for those. wheres the ambitious persephone?

thanks for the info.

it was one of many things Ive wondered - this woman was really paranoid about recieving gifts before the baby was born, so as not to risk her pregnancy..things like that. rather morbid, I thought. but I didnt want to ask her because, honestly, Im not too keen to engage her in any long discussions

so thank you!
 
 
m. anthony bro
18:37 / 20.03.02
So, some guy says to you "Meet me at the hill of foreskins at ten past", and you think 'cool, a hill made of foreskins', and maybe you'd think it was like a big bouncy castle, and that's how they suckered them in.
Man, speak of the devil in the details...
 
 
bitchiekittie
18:39 / 20.03.02
quote:Originally posted by mike [bro]:
....and maybe you'd think it was like a big bouncy castle...

HAHAHAHAHAHA

holy shit the visuals I get from this place!
 
 
Ganesh
21:33 / 20.03.02
Hearing voices, self-mutilation, child abuse... suspect the Maudsley has whole wards full of prophets...

The 'babies don't have the same sensory system' thing is broadly similar to the 'fish don't really feel hooks in their mouths' pro-angling argument in that both are predicated on the fact that the injured party can't articulate its pain sufficiently descriptively for us to care. It's pointless mutilation, simple as that.

And Hilary Bris, lest we forget, was the sinisterly sideburned butcher of Royston Vasey...
 
 
higuita
12:10 / 21.03.02
Isn't 'Bris Milah' part of the lyrics to Bohemian Rhapsody? You know, the operatic bit.

'Bris milah!
No! We will not let you go!
Let me go!
Bris Milah etc'

Sort of changes the song a bit. Or perhaps not.

And what happens to the Hill of Foreskins when you give it a quick rub and some dirty talk?
Mountain?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:07 / 21.03.02
If circumcision is the sign of the special covenant the Jewish people have with the (easily impressed) Lord which means they are the Chosen People then how come all the other circumcised people on the doorstep of Israel are not "chosen" too? Is it too much to expect logic to interfere with religion?
 
 
grant
16:52 / 21.03.02
Actually, I think you can argue some of them *are*. Just not... as chosen.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:59 / 21.03.02
B(r)ismillah, no!
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:11 / 21.03.02
quote:Originally posted by ZoCher:
Is it too much to expect logic to interfere with religion?

tee hee

I shall now run away to avoid any toe-stomping
 
 
Mystery Gypt
20:36 / 21.03.02
actually, circumcision is a blood sacrifice to yaweh and you should all be damned glad we keep doing it or else we'd be forced to go back to slaughtering christian children for the sabbath.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:40 / 22.03.02
And your problem with that is what exactly, hippie?

For the record, I think the Hebrew usage is brit milah, though I could be wrong.
 
  
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