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Are we mental?

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:58 / 30.11.01
Thinking about magick generally and the peace drive in particular, I can't help being struck by the similarity between what us git'ard practicing ritual magickians belive and certain aspects of psychosis. I mean, the whole "change the world with your mind" deal could almost have been lifted from the pages of a diagnostic manual. (Nobody hit me, okay? This is just an idea I'm floating.)

So, how do we tell if we've lost the plot? What is the difference between a fully-functioning magickian and a candidate for thorazine? I'm genuinely curious.
 
 
Mirakel Dreamer
09:58 / 30.11.01
A question I'm sure many of us have posed ourselves, especially when fairly new to magick, like myself, I've really only touched on anything beyond candle magick at this point.

Its easy to be skeptical, especially in something you can't exactly puts your hands on, but repeated obvious results sure keeps you going... and nothing like the rush the first time something actually WORKS...and you can SEE the results! What a rush!

Thank goodness for plain old blind faith, huh?

Break out the drugs

Mirakel
 
 
De Selby
09:58 / 30.11.01
I'm starting to wonder about this as well....

I'm starting to lose track of time a lot(I'm talking in the realm of days here), deja vu all the time, pre-cognition occasionally....

the edges are starting to fray, and although I guess this is what you ask for by taking this magick thing on, a dimmer switch would be good some of the time.

(and I haven't even mentioned the peace-mango/changing-the-world-through-masturbation thing either... )
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
09:58 / 30.11.01
Yeah, I've been experiencing deja vu, foretelling dreams and plain temporal dizziness for a while now. A few months after I started having success with Chaos magik, come to think of it. I've often wondered if I qualify as not seeing reality properly (although I don't really think there is such a thing, but amybe that's a sign of the phsycosis), but I suppose magik users are no more seperated from reality as, say, the hindus or christians. Hell, at least we've got results to speak for us.
 
 
Papess
09:58 / 30.11.01
I have been experiencing interesting phenonmenon as well. Incredible highs and lows in the events in my life. Sometimes remaining steadfast through this stuff can be so difficult. I question myself asking, "What the hell am I doing".
Really I am doing nothing. This is my most comforting thought.

-May Tricks

[ 30-11-2001: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
09:58 / 30.11.01
Just to up the psycho-ante a little:
Most of what we believe isn't that far off most major religions, ie a belief in spirits/deities, and changing the world with their help. Indeed because chaos magick has at least has some root in modern science, however speculative, it's arguably saner (I'm not really qualified to comment on other types of magick), than for example, believing in 'Creation Science', and so on...
However, the possibilities of sounding really psycho come in when you start considering what happens when you start considering if other people are using these techniques, such as the government(s). With a little paranoia thrown into the mix, it's perfectly possible to start believing George Bush Jr is projecting himself into your dreams, setting servitors to spy on you and make you miss the bus, reading your mind, and getting up to all sorts of mischief. In fact, it's entirely possible if you believe in magick, and almost reasonable that he would want do such things... "After all he must have been using magick to get into power, given the circumstances, and a mighty magickian like myself, especially one with such left libertarian leanings, would certainly be deemed a threat worthy of surveillance..."

Just managed to scare myself there. Course, I don't believe any of the above, (the bits about Bush,etc), just saying, that with an over-inflated opinion of oneself and/or your 'enemies' can put you in some very strange headspace. Which is, I suppose, part of the reason grounding and banishing and whatnot is so important...
 
 
Tamayyurt
09:58 / 30.11.01
I wanna live like common people!

Nah, I love being fucking nuts!
 
 
Gek
09:58 / 30.11.01
One eskimo says to another while sitting in an igloo "Is it cold in here?"
 
 
Tamayyurt
09:58 / 30.11.01
HAHAHA
 
 
nul
09:58 / 30.11.01
What is the difference between a fully-functioning magickian and a candidate for thorazine?

Mental patients have a prescription and don't buy it from the guy on the corner?

If believing in magic is crazy, I imagine most of the world is certifable. From elephant headed gods to old men in bathrobes watching from the clouds to... being reincarnations of old Hollywood starlits, we've all gone rotten in the head some how or another.

I'll consider you insane when come to my door with an ice pick and tell me you need to poke a hole in my chest to liberate Jesus.

 
 
Dr. Insect Horns
09:58 / 30.11.01
Out of the thousands of people I must have met over my life, three of them were possibly sane.

The rest of us may not be in good company, but hey! it's a big crowd.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
09:58 / 30.11.01
What about spinning this the other way around. What if people diagnosed as being seriously mentally ill are just in some way seeing what's really going on?
 
 
ghadis
09:58 / 30.11.01
'What about spinning this the other way around. What if people diagnosed as being seriously mentally ill are just in some way seeing what's really going on? '

As someone whos's had experience with both mental illness and magick i've come to the same sort of conclusion as above. The way i see it at the moment is that we all come with a set of 'psycic censors' which are both plumbed in when we are born and developed over the years. A number of these censors are necessary to go about our lives without flipping out completly. (The first line of Call of Cthulu sums this up well)

What various forms of mental illness seem to do is damage these censors with the result that we see,feel,hear etc strange scary shit.

What various forms of magick does is to attempt the same thing but in a more controlled way. We use cetain methods to hear the voices or feel the presence. We give ourselves multiple personalities in order to deconstruct the one etc.

When i was ill one of the main problems i had was dealing with the nature of scale and time. This seems to be a common problem and i guess its part of the idea of time being not as linear as we've been trained to think.

I don't in any way mean to imply that mental illness isn't an illness. I don't go around slapping scizophrenics on the back telling them to cheer up they're having a magickal experience. It is an illness and a very fucking scary one at that. It's a fine line.
 
 
Ganesh
09:58 / 30.11.01
Hah. Who here remembers my dear old 'Who Here Is Crazy?' thread? That was similarly-themed but more along the lines of asking which magickians actually had come in contact with the psychiatric services. Not that many, as I recall - which may be relevant.

Basically, definitions of psychosis are problematic. The important aspects to consider are a) whether there's been a sudden, dramatic change in someone's beliefs, b) whether they put him squarely at odds with his cultural (or, crucially, subcultural) context, and c) whether anyone is actually suffering (or likely to suffer) as a result.

So, looking at the question this way, the majority of posters here make use of magick within an established subculture (ie. they're not 'abnormal' within The Magick and the 'alternative spiritualities' scene, generally). Most, I'd guess, have developed their beliefs over time, through reading, talking, experimenting - rather than having the information suddenly 'dumped' into their brain from, say, a transmitter implanted by, ooh, the CIA. Most are not 'suffering' as a result of their magickal forays; nor are they causing those around them great physical or mental anguish (I don't think so, anyway).

So no, I wouldn't say any of you were immediately, obviously psychotic - although if I was completely unfamiliar with the context, you might seem so. Laila and @GOD, though, I've frequently wondered about; from the brief glimpses they've provided of how their beliefs took shape, I'd imagine they'd be more likely to fit my own 'treatment criteria', above...

From another angle, those who do suddenly fall ill with a psychiatric disorder - critical auditory 'voices', say, in schizophrenia - tend to seek an explanation for their symptoms, and are perhaps more likely than most to start reading up on the occult because the concept of 'demons', 'astral entities', etc. provides a ready explanation of their experiences. So there's a link there, albeit a somewhat tenuous one.

Another link might be drug use. Those who use hallucinogens regularly in order to access heightened or altered states are obviously more vulnerable to developing a drug-induced psychosis - or, if they're genetically-susceptible to developing schizophrenia, say, a more permanent psychotic disorder.

How do you tell when you've lost the plot? Tough one. I'll get back to you on that one.

[ 30-11-2001: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Ganesh
09:58 / 30.11.01
I'd say there's a fundamental difference between choosing to enter a certain mind-state temporarily and voluntarily and finding oneself more permanently trapped in a frightening experience one is apparently powerless to end. Abusive voices and 'multiple personalities' are an altogether scarier prospect when you can't get them to stop...

That's when you've lost the plot. Call me.

 
 
ghadis
09:58 / 30.11.01
quote: From another angle, those who do suddenly fall ill with a psychiatric disorder - critical auditory 'voices', say, in schizophrenia - tend to seek an explanation for their symptoms, and are perhaps more likely than most to start reading up on the occult because the concept of 'demons', 'astral entities', etc. provides a ready explanation of their experiences. So there's a link there, albeit a somewhat tenuous one.

Its that tricky chicken and the egg thing. Most magic message boards i've come across seem to mention, at some point, the high amount of depression, mental illness etc among magicians. The highs and lows and altered states of magickal work etc. But it does turn around very easily into the same people looking for something in their lives.Same goes for the Church.Scientology etc...

I was reading recently an interview with 2 magicians and the interviewer questioned why these 2 powerful Mages should have such boring mundane 'real life' jobs (caterer and builder i think).He then mentioned that if you turn the equation around you get the answer to an altogether different question.

Hum

It's too subjective to get a grip on really...I know that most people in my life that aren't connected to magick in any way see the second point of view. I'm pretty happy at the moment and getting good results from magick.I guess they're happy that i'm happy unless i ritually slaughter them...

And i'm not going to do that until the plantets are aligned...
 
 
Ganesh
10:11 / 30.11.01
Anecdotally, there may be a high rate of depression (and possibly psychotic illness) among magickians as compared with the population at large - but this is probably true for several other groups, including doctors, 'artistic types' and, judging from the profusion of "why is life so shit" theads, Barbelith posters.

And yeah, it is, to a large degree, a subjective evaluation. Since I'm frequently called upon to make that decision, however, and can't fall back on the "well, we're all mad, really" viewpoint, I guess I have to focus in a little more on the nitty-gritty. Which is one reason I value my contact with Barbelith: it helps me stay abreast of what's considered 'normal' in this or that subculture.
 
 
Mirakel Dreamer
10:17 / 30.11.01
posted 30-11-2001 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'What about spinning this the other way around. What if people diagnosed as being seriously mentally ill are just in some way seeing what's really going on? '

I think you are on to something here, maybe some of us can handle the truth, and maybe some of us can't.

My aunt is a diagnosed skitzophrenic, she not only heard voices, she saw things... like forks flying through the air, stuff like that, can't say I've ever had a spoon tossed at me in the middle of my supper hour (at least not one my 3 year old wasn't responsible for).

But that brings me to another thing.. she was extremely paranoid, thought the whole world was watching her, and out to get her (I saw her when she was in the ward and at one of her worst times)--but I had to make my husband get up last night and turn on the livingroom light so I could go to the computer and relax.. because I felt that I was being watched, and frankly, I really didn't like it... If that makes me insane.. break out the straightjacket...or maybe I'm on my way, and I'm just getting a taste of it.

AND-she complains that when shes on her meds she is unable to get a grip on HER reality, the reality she grew up with, that theres more then what you see when you walk down the street. Now was "her" reality one of alternative religion, or was she always just crazy.. hmmmmm...

So maybe, you ARE on to something, maybe they have just been exposed to the capable negatives of this world that we haven't experienced yet.

Fuck, I sure hope not.

Mirakel

[ 30-11-2001: Message edited by: Mirakel Dreamer ]
 
 
Ganesh
10:23 / 30.11.01
So you think maybe the whole fork-tossing world really is watching every one of us and out to get us, and the 99% not diagnosed schizophrenic just hasn't cottoned on to this yet?

OoOoOoo...
 
 
Bear
10:48 / 30.11.01
Sometimes I think this is the way things will be in the future, everyone using magick and having a huge understanding of the universe (unified theory) - but we cavemen have maybe found something that in the future will be comman place. But were not really quite advanced to understand it all and thats why somtimes its all a bit scary/weird...

or then again - I am actually insane to at least I have an excuse for the penguins chasing me
 
 
captain piss
13:03 / 30.11.01
The whole ‘yeah, we’re all mad really’ viewpoint does seem quite compelling, although I can see it’s limits for someone who has to make a judgement call like Nesh.
One view that’s been expressed about hallucinogens, for instance, is that they’re sometimes de-hallucinogens, wiping your mind clear of the filters and prejudices that support the ‘hallucination’ of contemporary social reality. Supporting the view is the fact that spiders fed LSD don’t wander around in a confused and purposeless manner but actually spin a much more perfect and symmetrical web.
The problem is that most of us don’t have the level of awareness or maybe just haven’t mastered the trick of staying in that state of mind for a prolonged period without eventually succumbing to delusion - or missing some of the vital details necessary for surviving in modern industrial reality (cos you’re busy looking at the wallpaper or whatever).
Magick seems to be a way to purposefully piss about with these mental filters, established through the socialisation and growing-up process, thereby rendering you more vulnerable to non-controlled loss of the biscuit at a later date, in the same way that most people I know who’ve experimented a lot with acid have been through at least one scary delusional period in their subsequent life.

Although I like Clive's idea of slapping schizo's on the back and going 'cheer up mate, you're having a magickal experience!'
 
 
Ganesh
13:51 / 30.11.01
In the interests of combatting stigma, Mr Buggerer, consider yourself officially bitchslapped for using the word 'schizo'...

Ah yes, the LSD/spiders thing; I've always wondered how the people who designed that experiment pitched it when they were applying for funding. Results-wise, it's kinda difficult to extrapolate from inferred arachnoid motivations to the human mental-state. Take your wood/trees/wallpaper point, though.

Hobby-horse alert!

I've always had a sli-i-ight problem with the whole "schizophrenic = unusually sensitive = able to truly perceive reality" argument, possibly because the schizophrenic people I see are usually rather damaged people, tortured by their symptoms (whether they be voices, crippling paranoia, whatever) and desperate for respite. Adopting a "don't worry, the world is mad" line seems, at best, glib, at worst, inhumane. Characterising them as slightly wonky avatars of a higher wisdom strikes me as comforting to the individual doing the characterising but not, generally speaking, to the schizophrenic person. Romanticising the voices doesn't, in my experience of schizophrenia, fundamentally change their unpleasant nature or make them any easier to bear.

Having said which, organisations like the Hearing Voices Network do try to help sufferers combat their symptoms in non-pharmacological ways: attempting to 'befriend' the voices or 'bargain' with them or whatever. It seems to work to a certain extent in a tiny subgroup of sufferers; some would argue that these aren't 'true schizophrenics'. I'm not sure.

So... the "we're all mad" viewpoint is fine as far as it goes - but coming in contact with severely psychiatrically disordered individuals who are seriously distressed by their symptoms tends to point up the qualitative gulf. Multiple subjective realities or no, the magickian (presumably) enjoys his voyages therein; the schizophrenic doesn't.

Okaaay. Rant over.

Who here is mental?
 
 
cusm
14:47 / 30.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
Multiple subjective realities or no, the magickian (presumably) enjoys his voyages therein; the schizophrenic doesn't.


Well, that would be the defining point, wouldn't it? If the condition causes you to suffer, its a problem. If on the other hand, the voices give you new insight into what people are really thinking about you behind your back, then you're not crazy, you have magic powerz

Seriously though, this reminds me again of scitzotypal disorder. This is used to define, basicly, magickal reality. That is, one takes external signs as having some deeper internal meaning. For instance, pretty much any form of divination falls under scitzotypal. Only, this is normally applied to the sort of free form divination where you think about something and the answer comes out of the lyrics of a song on the radio, or some other unlikely source.

quote:Mc900 ft Jesus - voices in your head
You don't read magazines anymore, because they all contain... secret messages


Scitzotypals generally are fully functional magical folks, who one might consider a bit quirky or superstitious. "No man, you can't go down that alley. That black cat I spotted just ran in front of some graphitti that looks like the Hagel rune. There's trouble that aways."

What I've wondered is, is scitzotypal generally considered a form of scitzophrenia?
 
 
Ganesh
15:44 / 30.11.01
No. I assume you're referring to the so-called schizotypal personality disorder, as described in the American Diagnostic & Statistical Manual, in which individuals must not fulfill criteria for actual schizophrenia but must show four of the following:

1) Magical thinking, eg. superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, etc.

2) Ideas of reference (which is basically a belief that events taking place around them are specifically directed at them)

3) Social isolation

4) Recurrent illusions, such as sensing the presence of a force or person not actually present

5) Odd speech - this has to be speech that is digressive, vague, over-elaborate, circumstantial or metaphorical, but without definite incoherence or loosening of associations

6) Inadequate rapport in face-to-face interactions

7) Suspiciousness or paranoid ideation

8) Undue social anxiety or hypersensitivity to real or imagined criticism.

Not just occasionally; most of the time. Before y'all start self-diagnosing, I should point out that a) it's aaall about how these criteria are interpreted, and b) personality disorders are slightly iffy diagnostic categories anyway.

In a series of papers from the Danish Adoption Study (1981), Kendler et al found that individuals judged to be 'schizotypal' do have genetic links with chronic schizophrenia. There've been no long-term studies with sufficiently high numbers, but it's suggested that the eventual outcome of schizotypal personality disorder is more like schizophrenia (in terms of social isolation, general functioning, etc.) than other personality types.

Go figure. I don't think you can equate a somewhat 'soft' psychiatric diagnosis with "fully functional magickal folks", Cusm, although I accept there may be some overlap - both with full-blown schizophrenia and with practitioners of magick.

And yeah, if someone's essentially undistressed by their 'odd experiences' - and not obviously distressing those around them - chances are they'll never come near a psychiatrist in the first place. Perhaps I only see voice-hearers in distress?

[ 30-11-2001: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
cusm
15:48 / 30.11.01
Yes, that's the one. Thanks for the clairification, Ganesh.
 
 
Ria
17:56 / 30.11.01
a friend (or former friend) married briefly to a woman I know I would always feel very strong energies from, strong force (not usual for me). we would hardly ever speak to each other but spoke with our eyes. my friends did marry as I said and at around that point she began to go mad and her precognitive and so forth and so on talents would pop up. they divorced. one time I did run across a schizophrenic woman... when I meet people like this I will stand and listen and have met at least friend that way... and she seemed to give a vocal rendition of the stream of consciousness in my own mind.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
20:19 / 30.11.01
Magickal thereapy?

Ganesh just to say that whilst it's easy for someone like myself to speculate that serious mental illnesses could be som kind of crossover from other realities/consciousnesses/whatever from the safety of my comfortable home I don't mean to trivialise what I'm sure must be the quite harsh realities (though again no frame fo refrence) for working with the mentally ill.

Mind you if it was the case you may have to swap your psychiatrist hat for, ooo I don't know a dimesnional engineer or something.
 
 
Captain Zoom
09:52 / 01.12.01
My wife has always been very sensitive. It really used to freak me out when she would stare just above my head and tell me she was looking at my aura. Or tell me that things (inanimate things) had told her their names. But then I finished reading the Invisibles, and I read Grant's postscript and all of a sudden my hair stood on end. It was like a whole new way of thinking had opened up. These days I do my best ot believe 100% in what I try to accomplish. I had a little bit of success with the weather, but there were a couple of times it really got away from me (flooded my campground!). I've no doubt that these things were results of my belief, but less in a direst way and more in a synchronistic way. Not sure if that makes sense, but my feeling of magic is that it is less influencing what's going ot happen than putting oneself in touch with what will happen, a kind of foreknowledge of how things will be.

Damn. I forgot to fill my Lithium prescription this month. This is not my room.....

Zoom.
 
 
Ganesh
09:52 / 01.12.01
Important to remember that, whatever one's views about the genesis of schizophrenia, a person is more than their 'diagnosis'; a diagnosis does not describe a person. Having been mentally ill does not invalidate someone's experiences - nor, in my opinion, does it lend them any particular gravitas. 'Psychic' abilities must be judged on their own merits...
 
 
Seth
09:52 / 01.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Johnny the fugitive:
I suppose magik users are no more seperated from reality as, say, the hindus or christians. Hell, at least we've got results to speak for us.


I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean this to sound like it sounds. It seems as though you’re saying that at least the two mentioned religions have results deficit problems. If this is what you meant, start another thread (so as not to rot this one), and I’ll kick yo’ uninformed ass.

quote:Originally posted by Johnny Haiku:
Indeed because chaos magick has at least has some root in modern science, however speculative, it's arguably saner (I'm not really qualified to comment on other types of magick), than for example, believing in 'Creation Science', and so on...


Not sure if I missed the point of what you’re saying, but I don’t think science is “sane” or “insane:” it simply is. Therefore I’m not sure that adopting an approach that seems to be more acceptable from a scientific standing will necessarily have any more beneficial psychological effects on sanity. Are there any studies on mental illness within the scientific community?

quote:Originally posted by The Redcap's futility.:
What about spinning this the other way around. What if people diagnosed as being seriously mentally ill are just in some way seeing what's really going on?


I’m not denying that the mentally ill do sometimes do seem to have fascinating insights (I have a friend who the doctors are having difficulty diagnosing - the say a form of schizophrenia - who often seems to have a means of observing and interpreting other people that is incredibly well attuned). I think these abilities are open to anyone who wants to train their mind in certain ways, however, and are probably better suited to someone able to turn those insights to something positive.

While I wouldn’t use the “the world is mad” defence, I would say that there are as many psychological states as there are individuals, and a resulting broad spectrum of positions on the sane/insane axis (which is much more a three-dimensional field than a straight line anyway). And I haven’t met anyone who fits the commonly held definition of sane.
 
 
Ganesh
09:52 / 01.12.01
Y'know, I don't think there is a commonly-held definition of sane...
 
 
higuita
11:28 / 01.12.01
Surely there is -
sane = people who think the way I do
This seems universally applicable.
 
 
Seth
10:55 / 02.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
Y'know, I don't think there is a commonly-held definition of sane...


I think I meant “sane” as being without any neuroses, psychoses, or general unsightly mental blips. I don’t think such a person exists. They may appear to sometimes, but they don’t.

Thinking about it more now, I reckon most people’s definition of “sane” would be whether a person is perceived to be functional in the societal role to which they are perceived to belong (ie; whether their personal psychoses gets in the way of their perceived role). I don’t think most people would even care about whether the person was suffering or not, as long as they’re still capable of living within other people's expectations...
 
 
Ganesh
11:10 / 02.12.01
S'what I mean. Sanity, like 'health' is generally defined in terms of absence of a) illness, and b) distress.

You're probably right in saying that few individuals have absolutely nothing by way of neurotic traits (psychoses are a little rarer within the population). It's also fair to say that the concept of functioning (how someone interacts with their social and cultural environment) is a large factor in deciding whether someone is 'mentally disordered'. Subjective distress is relevant, though...
 
 
Kobol Strom
12:54 / 02.12.01
Pure Sanity would be like the perfect car.
The original model design stored in a persons DNA,and once its out of the showroom it immediately reduces in value by about a half!Even when it breaks and get repaired,no mechanic in the world is going to get it back to showroom quality,unless they possess some particularly awesome tools.
Stretching this metaphor to the point of tedium,I would say that it is possible,in most cases,that part of the function of the brain during sleep is somehow connected with the minds' self-repair ability.In terms of how we experience this subjectively,I'd point to the subversion by the mind as it creates images in dreams,and its habit of producing trance-state awareness of repair-style dreaming experiences.Perhaps insanity is just the terminology for a lack of such an ability to achieve a semblance of conscious balance,if not the hypothetical sanity we assume we can have.This leads to the notion of -does the brain work like a machine anyway?
Since cognitive dissonance effects in Psychology can produce remarkable dream-states,there is still a realm of unknowable experiences which could possibly be the awareness of mind reparations which are too high level to understand.Maybe its in the interest of the mind to want us to remain ignorant of its machine-like qualities.-Thus you have experiences of Alien contact and other shields to possible awareness of mental processes, rather than confronting real extra-dimensional ones.Which is why we'd go insane at seeing a real Alien,or Cthulhu for that matter.

I think the point is that when we come face to face with the inner workings of our mind,we often percieve an alien landscape.
But if we ever came to meet an alien ,or see one in the flesh,it would run counter to the inner processes,and steal some if its fire.A new, popular Alien model,something to supersede 'The Greys' would by necessity take over the role of 'bizarre dream entity',and the function of this dream avatar would be secure again.That's why people who experience 'nirvana' and claim they 'suddenly knew everything' make me laugh,because if we suddenly knew everything we'd probably go stark raving mad.There would be no way for the mind to assimilate allo the information except over time,and this process as it is being carried out,is taking place in the mind of someone who has gone,'temporarily insane'.

So you can call the magick users mental,and you'd be absolutely right,but I believe that I'm more ready to see an alien than most.Heh.

[ 02-12-2001: Message edited by: kobol strom ]
 
  

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