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Issue with a mod in Games.

  
  

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I'm Rick Jones, bitch
16:02 / 05.08.05
So, here's my side of it:

There's a thread on the Chaos Engine. The discussion turns to what to do with the thread next. I make a mildly docile but well-intentioned post about the vague nature of "cyberpunk" games.

Now, here's where it all goes wrong. Haus, newly minted mod and no great fan of mine makes a snippy little comment ("Sparky"). In the following post I take a small but reasonably inoffensive jab back before fleshing out my earlier post, providing relevant screenshots and such. I used GIS, formatting and put the time in, as we are being told to.

Now, here's where it rolls off a cliff into the sea: Haus gets full on moody, disregards the relevant content and makes light of some recent personal problems I've been having. Now, aren't people supposed to steer clear from that kind of abuse around here? If I was more sensitive I'd be well with in my rights to throw a fit about the ADD comment, and I'm extremely saddened to see a newly minted mod in a newly minted forum airing this kind of grudge at the expense of a perfectly decent thread. Yes, I did take a shot back, but I don't like to be condescended to and I hardly went for the jugular.

You can see the rest and judge for yourself, but I'd like to point out H suggests I should have taken into consideration another post of his he later admits never to have written.

This isn't on. The last post in particular annoys me because he seems to be trying to claim moral superiority in a fight he started and escalated. The thread has been tarnished. I offered the chance to drop it then and there but that wasn't taken. If this is just going to slip past I might as well just fuck off to the insert credit forums, where no moderators are looking to pick at me for the time being.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:24 / 05.08.05
So, what you do is "mild", "inoffensive", "harmless". What I do is somehow not. Hmm. I think we may be seeing the problem, here.

This is the thing, EL. You are never prepared to take responsibility for your actions. You maintain to yourself that nothing you do or say is ever offensive or unjustified, and yet you lose your rag totally when anyone dares to contradict you. Then, as we saw in the "Countdown to Infinite Crisis" thread and your subsequnet claim that I entered it specifically to attack you, when challenged you lie to others and to yourself about what actually happened, and then, if corrected, ignore it completely. The fact that you have managed to get into fights with any number of moderators in any number of fora might suggest to a grown-up that you might want to have a look at your behaviour.

As for the ADD comment - yes, that was unkind. If you had actually been diagnosed as suffering from ADD, I would certainly never have made it. However, you have not. You just think you have ADD, based on as far as I can tell no medical advice or expert scrutiny. I think there's a difference, TBH.

Now, personally I think you're a net negative to Barbelith. You can't deal with any dissenting opinions and you don't know how to disagree with people without losing your shit and hoping you can Craig them into submission. However, I don't have a problem with you sticking around here, although your childish and rude behaviour over the last few years is going to affect my view of you, as is your insistence that whatever insults you throw at people are utterly harmless, whereas calling somebody WHOSE NAME IS ELECTRIC LUCIFER "Sparky" is tantamount to mumrape.

As such, if the insert credit forums are going to provide a happier huntiing ground for you, I very strongly suggest you go there.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:27 / 05.08.05
I make a mildly docile but well-intentioned post about the vague nature of "cyberpunk" games.


Oh, and steampunk, not cyberpunk. Remember the bit where I suggest that you're more interested in having a fight than paying attention to the thread?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:31 / 05.08.05
Here's a suggestion for you, why don't you (both of you actually) take your little ongoing war and contain it between the two of you. No one else cares that you don't like each other. We don't care and you cannot expect any of us to start when you have an exchange like this-

Yes, Sparky.


Is this you with your moderator hat on or are you just wearing one of those battery powered clapping things?

It's about time you accepted that you antagonise Haus as much as he reacts and antagonises you. The fact that he is a moderator is neither here nor there unless he has moderated something inaccurately, which is precisely why we have distributed moderation. This isn't his fault, you are both communicating here and I think you are both behaving like pumped up 5 year olds.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:33 / 05.08.05
Please guys - can we calm this one down a bit. Electric Lucifer - what are you expecting from this thread? What action would make you feel better? What's your aim in trying to start this thread? What are you asking us to do? Just expressing aggrievement isn't enough, I don't think, to let this discussion reach any kind of conclusion.

Haus, it's a pretty harsh leap to go from 'I'm having problems with this moderator' to the comments in the post above. You may have a lot of evidence for your statements, but it makes it difficult for us to assess the complaints if the tone's already getting so vitriolic. I can't talk for everyone else, but I personally would really appreciate a bit of context - could you post links to the problems you've had with Lucifer in the past?
 
 
Tom Coates
16:34 / 05.08.05
But yeah - can we try and keep this relatively civilised?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
16:38 / 05.08.05
This is the thing, EL. You are never prepared to take responsibility for your actions. You maintain to yourself that nothing you do or say is ever offensive or unjustified, and yet you lose your rag totally when anyone dares to contradict you

Oh now I'm sorry, this won't wash. You called me "sparky". That's condescension - and I should know, because that's how I've used it in the past. Pointing out that my current name has vauge spark conotations after the fact is lame and I would imagine dishonest.

Now, two zingers do not a flamewar make. Me parodying your use of "and now with my moderation hat on" just after you've fired off a pity zinger is not grounds for the shit you pulled after that (faking posts, strops and insults) YOU pushed this because you seem to think that somehow this is of benefit to the board. I offered to drop this if nothing more was said. You threw your weight around some more.

Your attitude problem caused this. You continued it. My posts may sometimes be terse and short (for your information, I'm seeking medical advice on the AD/HD thing and my symptoms have enough merit for me to be refered for assessment, thank you very much. It would be civil if I got the same treatment as everybody else, even if I'm not too bothered by it) but I do try to pull myself up by the bootstraps, for example by GIS cyberpunk games for his royal hausness.

You're either deluded or in denial of how insulting and thoroughly unpleasant you are and I couldn't care less either way, but don't ram it in my face when I try to contribute to a thread, OK?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
16:42 / 05.08.05
Nina, I don't go out of my way to look for trouble with Haus (it does seem to find me, however) and I offered to let this slip if nothing more was said. I took it here when something more was said and stated my case plainly. "Sparky" was in reply to something perfectly benign I posted and it was uncalled for. Do not insinuate that I am somehow at equal fault here because I did not seek this and I did not start it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:48 / 05.08.05
Yes you did. You always do. You are not some victim here, you are an adult and you chose to respond in an aggressive way. That was your choice. I have eyes and frankly I know how all of you are inclined to behave. If you want to argue it's fine but to come here and try to involve everyone else in your feud is beyond the pale. As a Policy moderator I am telling both of you that if you have a complaint with one another it is your responsibility as adults to hash it out between each other.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:53 / 05.08.05
Actually, Nina, it isn't. EL is specifically having trouble with _a mod_. That's a Policy issue. I'd rather he stuck to personal abuse, but that would not be dramatic enough, so it's a problem with a moderator, and quite possibly as we go on with the entire moderation system, thence Barbelith and ultiamtely Tim Berners-Lee.

As foor the rest - you're forgetting that EL hasn't done anything wrong ever. Remember, when I say something it is designed to cause maximum offence. Like "Sparky". When he says something, you would have to be a fool not to realise how sparkly and inoffensive it is. That's how the world works in Lucifer's Land of Craig.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
17:01 / 05.08.05
I made a complain to policy because moderator status was thrown around. I have a right to have this grievence aired, I think.

My conduct in the thread began impecably. I am telling you, because it is a fact as clear as day, that there is nothing condescending or insulting to Haus in my first post.

For this behaviour I get condescended to by a freshly minted mod. I add back a small, weak zing. This is not looking for a flame war, it's normal back and forth on the internet. I produced a fine post relevant to the discussion. This was met with a post focusing entirely on the weak weak zing (who knows, maybe my wit is of such Wildian strengh that I cannot control it?). The thread teetered close to derailment. I offered to drop it if he dropped it. I was told to refer to a post which did not exist. This is childish and pathetic behaviour from someone whose main tactic in this unwelcome little skirmish has been to claim that he's somehow more mature.

"Sparky" is not a deadly insult (nor was my response). The tone it was delivered in was however extremely condescending. That's what I took objection to. If I'd have known a tiny wee rejoiner would trigger this shit-storm I'd have stayed the fuck away from that thread.

Sigh. I have, I think apologised for any idiot shit I've pulled in the past. I wasn't in the clearest frame of mind when I first delurked here and I apologise for that. Doesn't look like I'm going to be allowed to forget it or make up for it when it's being dredged up in my face all the time though, does it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:04 / 05.08.05

For Tom's benefit, EL - where was the thread where you accused me of following you around, leaping into threads as soon as you post to them and insulting you, providing as an example the "Countdown to Infinite Crisis" thread that you were trolling for attention, which I entered a fortnight after you did, talking to somebody else entirely? The thread where, after I corrected you at some length because I was bored of your needly little personal attacks, you ignored completely the evidence that you had been deceiving yourself in order to feel victimised and heroic and instead posted a picture attempting to communicate, I believe, how ugly I must be? Somewhere in the Convo, I believe... you'll remember it as the one where you won and were best, I fancy. Was it in "Headsick and Rage"?

Tom: EL's problems with people not agreeing with him are pretty well-attested - threads like this one on the Strokes and this on Girls Aloud show some reasonable examples of this. His sense of aggrieved innocence also entitles him to bash off some nasty PMs with an entirely clear conscience.

Oh yes, and if you say "faking posts" again, EL, I am going to be very bored indeed. I cut and pasted the first paragraph from the ontopic post I had already mentioned I was writing some posts above. I know you are clutching at anything you can here, but remember that most people on Barbelith are smart enough not to fall for things which can convince you, just because you keep repeating them over and over again.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:04 / 05.08.05
The tone it was delivered in was however extremely condescending.

You know this how?
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
17:10 / 05.08.05
Oh yes, and if you say "faking posts" again, EL, I am going to be very bored indeed. I cut and pasted the first paragraph from the ontopic post I had already mentioned I was writing some posts above. I know you are clutching at anything you can here

You said to me that I should have responded to issues raised in your post, which you then quoted in bold tags, as is customary around here for quoting pre-existing posts. When I asked you where this mythic post I am somehow supposed to have travelled back in time to have responded to, you replied that it did not exist.

I'm not the one who's clinging on to things here Haus, and I'm not the one playing tricks. I've been entirely more civil than you about trying to resolve this but you cannot let the tiniest little things go and I am sick to death of it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:14 / 05.08.05
Thank you for providing examples within this thread of just how petty both of you are. I think the propriety of my response has been marvellously illustrated by both of you.

Haus you're giving moderators a responsibility above their means, they are allowed to behave as posters, they are allowed to feud with other posters. The remit of moderators lies only within their moderation actions. This is not a problem with a moderator, this is a problem with another member of the board, does every ongoing argument on barbelith end up in Policy? Should we change the remit of the forum to state that ongoing arguments may end up here? I think not.

I think you are behaving abhorrently. You are not rotting a thread but a forum.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:16 / 05.08.05
I'm pretty much with Nina on this.

Electric Lucifer - I've read the thread and I don't think that any action is warranted on the level of policy. I think you overreacted and were agressive. My advice is to take a step back and try to avoid these kinds of conflicts - it is actually surprisingly easy to do.

That said, I think the ADD comment wasn't really on, Haus. I have no recollection of the history you refer to, but that remark was antagonistic with predictable results.

In short, Nina is right, and this isn't policy material. Its a personal fight and I think you should both back away.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:19 / 05.08.05
Of course you've been entirely civil. You're always completely civil. The fact that you have twisted the facts in this regards to suit your need to be the victim of evil forces is entirely untrue. You would never do that, because that woudl be offensive. You would never be in any way offensive.

You said to me that I should have responded to issues raised in your post

Yes, you halfwit. I did. The post in which I asked:

Which games employ the setting, why it is not more popular, that kind of thing.

Which I was referring back to in the excerpt from the post I was writing, here:

Only, we're a bit keen not to have pointless list threads. that's one reason why I asked why it is not more popular. I was hoping for a slightly better answer than it is not very popular.

I have put in a mod request asking to put inverted commas around "it is not very popular", which was originally bolded in the post I was writing, to make it clear that I was asking you to respond to my question about why it was not very popular, rather than just telling us that it was not very popular. That has yet to be agreed. Of course, if I'd remembered that I was talking to you, and that you a) don't read people's posts with much attention and b) would compulsively attempt to misrepresent the facts to represent yourself as a heroic victim, I would have been more careful, but I assumed a coompetent audience. That was a mistake so heinous thhat I probably should be expelled froom Barbelith for it, as it has given you a toehold to Craig your way to victimhood.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:21 / 05.08.05
Nina: I was assuming that the point was that he wanted me removed as moderator. If not, then this is indeed a personal feud, and should be moved to the Convo immediately. I'm not really competent to do that, but I certainly wouldn't have a problem with someone else doing it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:31 / 05.08.05
Well Electric Lucifer, is this a simple complaint or do you actually think that Haus should be removed as a moderator?
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:36 / 05.08.05
I don't think it matters much, does it? I mean, since we are agreed that there are no grounds for a complaint there isn't much more to say.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
17:41 / 05.08.05
Repeating this, as I think it's pretty important that it be answered.

The tone it was delivered in was however extremely condescending.

You know this how?

See, this is apparently what this entire session of complaining hinges on - whether or not the use of the word "Sparky" was intended to be an attack. I'd like to know why you came to this conclusion straight away, before the rest of it all kicked off. Seems to me that there's absolutely no way you could have known exactly how it was supposed to be taken, in which case I'd have thought common sense would suggest either ignoring it or PMing Haus asking if it was intended as a snark.

Haus, you're supposed to be an intelligent man. As ever, I fail to understand how you could possibly be unaware that the wording of your subsequent post would lead to precisely this sort of shitstorm brewing up. Yet again. I'm beyond tired of seeing you bait other people and then throw your hands up in the air with a "what, me guv? I never touched her" when they come back at you. No, EL's big string of images wasn't exactly the greatest post ever, but there were plenty of better ways you could have dealt with that, none of which would have led us to where we are now. And if you think that anything you'd have said to him would have got this kind of reaction, then you could quite easily have asked one of your co-moderators to bring it up instead of doing so yourself.

I mean, for Christ's sake man, do you really think the use of the word "halfwit" is going to help calm this down, or prevent people from presuming that you're snarking at them in future? Have you ever considered that you may be at least partly to blame for the fact that it's always you at the centre of these things?
 
 
Hieronymus
18:59 / 05.08.05
Hear, hear.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:09 / 05.08.05
Right, what I want to put forwards now is that the images in EL's post be replaced with links and that all the bickering that followed be deleted. I'm suggesting these moves here before I go putting them into the moderation queue so that anybody who wants to save evidence of the bickering "for future reference" - because that tends to be the only excuse for not deleting this sort of thing, every time it appears - has a chance to do so.

Sound fair?
 
 
Hieronymus
20:05 / 05.08.05
I like the idea of a steampunk game thread but I'm a bit uncomfortable at seeing yet another Haus squabble with a member being swept under the rug as if it never happened. It is an ongoing issue regarding tone that never seems to get addressed around here.

Maybe by locking the current thread and starting a new one that deals specifically with the topic? As I'm not sure, from the first two or three posts, that steampunk was originally what the thread was about.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:25 / 05.08.05
Yes, I second what Heironymous is saying.

And, while I'm not exactly Trisha, it seems obvious that Haus and Electric Lucifer are arguing needlessly. You've both dealt the same ammount of damage to eachother. You're at a stage where you can call it quits. Can't you just stop this argument?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
20:38 / 05.08.05
The main reason I was suggesting deletion is because it's a horrible boil on a forum that I'm pretty heavily invested in, but I take your point.

Instead, I'll go with your idea and transfer Haus' main post into a new thread, as I've got a reply to post to it. The current thread can be locked and I'll PM secret goldfish and Stoatie to ask them if they want to repost their opening comments into a new Chaos Engine/Bitmap Bros thread.

Okay?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
20:38 / 05.08.05
yet another Haus squabble with a member being swept under the rug as if it never happened. It is an ongoing issue regarding tone that never seems to get addressed around here.

Haus is not required to be nice to people.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:43 / 05.08.05
Shall we tackle this once and for all. Look everytime someone says something like this -I'm a bit uncomfortable at seeing yet another Haus squabble with a member being swept under the rug. I try to ask why it is perceived that we're hiding something. There seems to be an assumption that Haus has more responsibility towards the board than Electric Lucifer. Now is my perception here wrong or is that the case. Why does it bother you so much that Haus sometimes behaves badly in contrast to every other member of the board? I just don't understand what it is particularly that is being hidden.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
20:44 / 05.08.05
Let's have some clarification of what you actually really mean, what's behind the statement?
 
 
Triplets
20:56 / 05.08.05
Haus is not required to be nice to people.

He's not, but he's required, as a mod, to be polite (And he's certainly not required to be a nasty, little instigator, either).

Throwing my hat in, I think there is truth to the idea that these feuds between H and X do, for the most part, have their criticisms (of the feuds themselves) lessened be it because of Haus' tenure or because of the old nugget, "but that's what The Haus is supppppossssseeed to do." Maybe this is the case, but I believe myself and other posters are getting bit sick of it and I don't think it should be used as a catch-all defense (excuse?) for behaviour that borders on the vile.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:15 / 05.08.05
Trips>

While I agree with your point about politeness (and I do - I said something about it just this morning) like Nina says, is that really what happens? The odd person may do, yeah - Qalyn did it a few posts ago - but you're going to have to provide me with some decent amount of evidence before I accept that it's something that most people, even most moderators, do.

I know for a fact that others have called Haus on aspects of his behaviour when they think it was warranted, just as they would do and have done anybody else. And yet these people manage to do so without getting themselves dragged into this rather rubbish little game of "you slag me/I slag you".
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:35 / 05.08.05
As per Randy's suggestion, I'm more than happy to start the thread again, so it can be about, y'know, games. And possibly gaming, too. (Specifically The Chaos Engine, and broadening to The Bitmap Brothers).
With the proviso that this likely won't happen until tomorrow- I've just got back from the pub and am probably not in the best position, sobriety-wise, to write a lengthy thread-starter of a post. Even if "writing" in this case would partly, or indeed largely, consist of cutting and pasting.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:57 / 05.08.05
Why do moderators have to be politer than the average poster? Where's the rule that says you have to behave like a moderator when you're having a simple exchange with someone? Whether that exchange is an argument or a nice chat there is no impetus to behave any differently then anyone else. We have around 50 moderators and almost all of them are people who contribute to barbelith every day and are prolific in their engagement with the board. That is not average on the Internet, which means we have to recognise that the moderation structure here remains separate to individual identities while discussing subjects in threads in a way that is uncommon.

Everyone has the option of sitting back and really thinking about what they're saying. Now in the thread discussed here the exchange devolved into two posters baiting each other but the problem with all the accusations thrown around about Haus is that they have no ground other than his blatant and clear aggression (that we can all see all the time). His posting style may be aggressive but everyone has the option of asking him not to be violent towards them and yes that might be difficult but a fight is only a fight between two people. If you haven't considered your views in a rounded way then you are going to be questioned here, that is the nature of barbelith. All of the posters here question each other all the time, if one person is more biting than another there's no mystery behind that.

The very suggestion that we are trying to sweep an argument under the rug is absurd, not because we're not trying to sweep it away, frankly that thread now deserves to be pushed into a dank little corner but the suggestion that we're trying to conceal some type of behaviour perpetrated by one person is absurd. There is no conspiracy here, there is an accusation levelled against one person over and over again as if he is doing something terrible when people consistently discuss it with soundbites and no actual analysis of the various situations. I am angered by this ridiculous myth that he somehow holds all the cards, all the power, is a dragon in a cave waiting to leap upon you all. Haus is not the Prime Minister, he does not have a nuclear key, he is not trying to kill your babies in the night. He is someone who has an aggressive stance on a message board and is better at arguing than a lot of us. If he has any power at all you are the people perpetrating it by stating that you're not a 'lither until he has attacked you. You are the people who make him a rite of passage, if you find that annoying then stop fucking doing it.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:14 / 05.08.05
Why do moderators have to be politer than the average poster?

Generally, they don't. They do when they're bringing up a point related to moderation, though, which is what Haus happening here, in the post that effectively guaranteed we end up where we are now - a post about quality of discussion, coming from a moderator, after a previous moderator-hatted post from the same person (asking how the thread should proceed) and the topic of quality of discussion within that very forum has been brought up by that same moderator in a thread devoted to the subject within the last twenty-four hours.

I'd suggest that telling somebody that they've dragged discussion down to "a new low" isn't exactly going to tempt them to raise their game. It does the exact opposite.

Moderators have a duty not to let threads be dragged off-topic, so it's more than a bit annoying when you see a moderator actively helping to destroy one.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:17 / 05.08.05
This thread already has well over thirty posts. Doesn't really strike me as "under-the-carpet" material. The very fact that this discussion is going on at all in Policy kind of gives the lie to any suggestion that stuff's being swept under the carpet.

And before anyone says "yes, but nobody READS the Policy"... I've long been of the belief that more people SHOULD. As far as I can tell, it's one of the most important fora we have.
 
  

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