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Who do hoodoo? How do hoodoo?

  
 
grant
17:45 / 28.11.01
Lothar sed this:

quote:The best damn thaumaturgical results from any magic I've ever encountered has been hoodoo (usually combined with theurgic elements from Dahomean or Yoruban religions). That shit's the real 'Results Magic'.

...and then he didn't give no EXAMPLES!

Cuz I wanna know what got encountered! I wanna do me some hoodoo too!
 
 
Ierne
18:27 / 28.11.01
Hoodoo done broke up my happy home. Well, my parents' not-so-happy home. I found about it about twenty years later from my aunt, so (unfortunately?) specifics on the spell itself is scanty.

My paternal grandmother went to see someone about putting a curse on my Mom so Dad would leave her. As far as I know it was a lady, who put a combination of things in a jar and told my grandmother once the liquid in the jar evaporated my parents would separate, my mother would suffer horribly and my grandmother would have her little boy back. (Presumably the jar was not airtight or had a perforated lid. Iron nails were involved, and bits of animal. I do not know what bits or what animal.) My grandmother prides herself publicly on being a Good Catholic, but she showed her true colors here.

Well, my mother did suffer a bit financially, and they did break up. If anything, my father suffered all the horrible shit that was meant for Mom: loss of love, job, home, sanity, he just lost it completely.

To this day my dad lives with his mother, incapable of fending for himself without her (financially or otherwise). So watch out for what you ask for, eh?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:38 / 29.11.01
Well, I don't have a huge list of examples but I've seen enough to convince me of it's efficacy.

First, there was the 'love spell' that I mentioned in the Ethics of Love magic thread:

quote:I wrote
The strongest thaumaturgical results I've ever seen are from various afro-caribbean traditions so I'll post my one cautionary tale from a real life Palo Mayombe situation.
A guy I know was obsessed with this girl so he went to a Palero to get some 'love magic' done.

The Palero explained that the spell would make it so that she would feel uncontrollably drawn to him. She wouldn't be able to rest until she was with him. The Palero cautioned him that this was powerful magic and asked him if he was he ready for the consequences.

My friend thought this was great, had the spell done and within a week the two of them were having hot passionate sex.

Unfortunately their two personalities weren't compatible for real love or even a real intimate relationship.

Their 'relationship' deteriorated into mean and painful actions against each other as they tried to break free of whatever it was that was binding them (magic coupled with guilt, lust, pride, etc.).

It all ended in tears and was not worth the emotional cost.


Another acquaintance in Louisiana did a "Bend Over" spell of a more Dahomean flavor of Hoodoo (with some Voudoun thrown in) for his mom who was getting fucked with at her place of work by another employee that was just a bit higher up. Within a week the offending person was leaving his mom alone and within a month the person resigned and actually recommended the spell caster's mom for the position.

The last example is of a loose acquaintance. I heard the following story from a friend who knows us both so it's second hand.

This guy's wife left him and cheated on him with a friend. After a few months of praying to the Orishas to help him just let it go he found out that the affair had actually been going on a year longer than he had originally thought. He said that Shango came to him in a dream and told him that justice could be his if he wished it.

He did a separating spell using traditional hoodoo candle magic mixed with petitioning the correct Orishas and in six months time the couple was broken up and the ex-wife was asking to come back to him. He turned her down and everytime he felt like calling her up he instead offered thanks to his orishas for helping him.

The various African religions and magical traditions are primal and passionate and scary. There's also a shit load of worshippers and practitioners all over the world that keep the religions and gods alive and evolving.

According to Christopher Hyatt Ph.d. there are approximately 5 million practitioners of afro-carribean magic/religion and 100 million within the western hemisphere.

In the same way that a group ritual can add power so does tapping into a tradition that is alive and constantly fed by that many people.
 
 
cusm
16:01 / 29.11.01
Voodoo: fiction suits that wear you.

Its powerful stuff. Very real. I'm currently watching a close friend go through initiation, and its completely rewiring her. She lost the ability to do simple math, while her circuits are reforged. This sort of thing is often done, as I'm told, as a protection for the initiate as they can't handle too much too fast when their entire world view is remade. It fosters the deepest sort of belief I've ever seen, and with that sort of belief, comes the power behind the magic. Its not a matter of belief. They're just real, and that's that.

Imagine if your gods weren't abstract concepts, but real beings that could tap you on the shoulder at any time. Add to this the practice of reclaiming the dead, keeping ghosts around all the time to talk to. Its like invoking and then never banishing, and they can jump into your head at any time. The Lwa are hard wired into your personality. The world of spirit is right on top of you, just a breath away.

I don't practice, but because those close to me do, I brush with them on occasion, sometimes in dreams and the like. I knew I was going to hear from my friend today because last night I drempt of her showing up with Shango. That sort of thing. Its tricky going to learn about without getting involved with. It'll suck you right on in. Powerful wards against possession help in my case I make very clear where I stand with it, by necessity. I'm grateful for the opportunity to learn from it, as I am finding some very applicable tools within it I can apply elsewhere. You have to respect it, though.

Here is an excellent page I've found on it, that gives a good general overview for those interested in how some of it works:
http://members.aol.com/racine125/index1.html
 
 
cusm
16:09 / 29.11.01
Case in point, the lwa ate my last post about Voodoo. This followup should flush it out, though. Barbelith being wierd somehow does not suprise me when it comes to this topic. I gues they just wanted to make sure we were paying attention...
 
 
Mister Remington Finn
16:17 / 29.11.01
...funny enough...I read and learned about Voodoo and Hoodoo, by reading William Gibson (in Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive). I found it a refreshingly concept: It is a christian believe system, but with a street wise view of it.Sure, there is God (Grand Pere), but he´s too far away to look after your sorry ass. So if you want help, you go to gods who can help you. You don´´t go to the goverment to loan money, but to the local loanshark....or hitman...Gibson tied all this to a fractured omnipotent AI that took the roles of the Loa....go...read...have fun.....

[ 29-11-2001: Message edited by: Mister Remington Finn ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:25 / 29.11.01
quote:Originally posted by cusm:
Voodoo: fiction suits that wear you.

Its powerful stuff. Very real. I'm currently watching a close friend go through initiation, and its completely rewiring her. She lost the ability to do simple math, while her circuits are reforged. This sort of thing is often done, as I'm told, as a protection for the initiate as they can't handle too much too fast when their entire world view is remade. It fosters the deepest sort of belief I've ever seen, and with that sort of belief, comes the power behind the magic. Its not a matter of belief. They're just real, and that's that.


Yup. The few people I know that have been through Santeria, Palo Mayombe, or Voudoun initiation have all made it very clear that their whole beings and lives are recreated. Sometimes in painful ways. Growing pains maybe. But it's definitely more than just a psychological or symbolic initiation.

quote:
Imagine if your gods weren't abstract concepts, but real beings that could tap you on the shoulder at any time. Add to this the practice of reclaiming the dead, keeping ghosts around all the time to talk to. Its like invoking and then never banishing, and they can jump into your head at any time. The Lwa are hard wired into your personality. The world of spirit is right on top of you, just a breath away.


Again, Yup. These aren't the only traditions where the spirit world can be as strong or real in both a subtle and physical sense but you don't really have a choice with the afro-caribbean traditions. They're there. Period.

quote:[qb]
I don't practice, but because those close to me do, I brush with them on occasion, sometimes in dreams and the like. [QB]

I don't practice either. Since I work with many spirits and pantheons shamanically I don't feel that it's possible to commit to the afro-caribbean deities and spirits in the way that they would demand.

I respect them and as a result I've got some 'friendships' with some of them but it's nothing like what initiates experience.

It's also seems that solitary practitioners (unless they're especially blessed or talented) are at a major disadvantage. Initiates have to put up with the silence factor (a lot of stuff they just can't talk about with outsiders) but the initiation is a real commitment not just to the human politics of the religion but also to the spirits of the religion themselves.

By vowing to them in the traditional initiatory way they become a part of your life and soul.

Just picking up some books and building your altar is a fine way to test the waters but to really dive in deep it seems that you have to be a joiner.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:28 / 29.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Mister Remington Finn:
...funny enough...I read and learned about Voodoo and Hoodoo, by reading William Gibson (in Count Zero and Mona Lisa Overdrive).

Don't take anything that Gibson wrote about as gospel on what Voudoun is about. They were works of fiction (damn good ones!) but he's not really very knowledgable about the subject.
 
 
Mister Remington Finn
16:35 / 29.11.01
...although not turning this into a W. Gibson thread...yeah I know he´s a good writer in his genre...but when he finally bought a computer..after written the first two manuscripts on paper..he was amazed and disappointed by the noise the H-disk made....so..I take his view of voudoun....is just that..or like that....Is the Jim Crow character from the invisibles a more true version..?
 
 
Ierne
16:47 / 29.11.01
Since I work with many spirits and pantheons shamanically I don't feel that it's possible to commit to the afro-caribbean deities and spirits in the way that they would demand. – Lothar "Mezcal" Tuppan

That's pretty much where I stand with them as well.

I think it's also important to remember that, as it is a living tradition, one is dealing with the community as well as the deities who interact with the community. So while the deities themselves may or may not have specific requirements for one's dealings with them, the community that accepts you as an initiate most definitely has preferred methods and means by which the deities must be accessed.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:52 / 29.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Mister Remington Finn:
Is the Jim Crow character from the invisibles a more true version..?

I loved Jim Crow but... No. He was Grant Morrison's fictional interpretation of Maya Deren's views on one flavor of Voudoun. (Side note: I do think that the first issue with Jim Crow in volume 1 - I forget the exact issue - is a good, albeit comic book style, depiction of a shamanic lower world journey and soul retrieval.)

I'm not a big fan of occult web sites just because they normally don't cite their sources and they have no editors so they can say that Jello is the high Loa and publish it on their site so I don't have any websites to list but here is a short list of fairly good books on the religious aspects of the subject:

'The Book of Voudou' by Leah Gordon (Haitian tradition with lots of cool photographs)

'Tell My Horse' and 'Of Mules and Men' by Zora Neale Hurson (Haitian, Jamaican, and New Orleans beliefs)

'Secrets of Voodoo' by Milo Rigaud (Haiti again)

any of the books by Migene Gonzalez-Wippler for Santeria (although she demonizes Palo Mayombe terribly. She's as terrified of Palo as a fundamental Christian is about any type of magic).

And unfortunately there isn't anything I know of in English regarding Palo Mayombe, other than stuff that calls it evil incarnate.

For hoodoo and thaumaturgic stuff any of the 'Papa Jim' chapbooks (I think it's Papa Jim )or Brujo Negro's 'Voodoo Sorcery Grimoire' are informative and useful.

[ 29-11-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
grant
17:18 / 29.11.01
I was HOPING to get something more... hands on, as far as hoodoo goes.

The stuff in the jar, maaaan. Makin' them mojo pouches.

That kinda stuff!
 
 
betty woo
18:48 / 29.11.01
Yeah - there's a definite difference between voodoo and hoodoo. Voodoo is more religious, hoodoo is more along the lines of folk magic and superstitions. It tends to be focused in the Southern US (hoodoo itself is an American term, nothing to do with Brazillian or other Yoruba offshoots).

The best online resource I've found for Hoodoo is Hoodoo in Theory and Practice. It is a commercial site, but there's still plenty o' info on laying tricks and doing conjures, if that's what you're after.

James Haskin's book "Voodoo and Hoodoo" is also pretty informative, with tons of anecdotes about various conjures, along with the Papa Jim books Lothar mentioned.

[ 29-11-2001: Message edited by: betty woo ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:04 / 29.11.01
And for spells that have a bit of a Voudoun religious flavor give Brujo Negro's book a try.

He's got a website too but I can't remember the URL right now.

And of course www.luckymojo.com sells all sorts of supplies and books. Including the Papa Jim ones.

Check 'em out. Visit your local Botanica to get your supplies and start layin' down the mojo.

Grant: This is obviously a personal question so feel free to tell me to mind my own business. I remember you saying you've been cultivating a relationship with the Orishas (at least Ellegua). Are you considering getting initiated?
 
 
Good Antlerhead
01:24 / 30.11.01
Hmm, what a coincidence. I just received two copies of "Lucky Hoodoo" in the mail yesterday from one Michael Bertiaux of the OTOA. Looks like the loa are flagging my attention already, especially since I've been seeing the word "loa" appearing coincidentally everywhere. Hmm.

By the way, Stephen / Ghost Doctor, if you're still on this board, one of the copies is for you. I seem to have lost you e-mail...
 
 
grant
13:27 / 30.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
Grant: This is obviously a personal question so feel free to tell me to mind my own business. I remember you saying you've been cultivating a relationship with the Orishas (at least Ellegua). Are you considering getting initiated?

I'd love to, but it's not a community I move much in. In other words, I have no illusions about my comparitive whiteness.
I'm also, I gotta confess, a little bit uneasy with the whole blood-is-the-food-of-the-saints thing. Wimpy vegetarian and animal lover, me. Then again, I recognize that that's part of why it's there - the shock, the life, that business.
So, anyway, I do as much homework as I can in case some opportunity presents itself.
 
 
Ierne
13:58 / 30.11.01
I have no illusions about my comparitive whiteness. – grant, from his 666th post

And you shouldn't. While there certainly is a sizeable percentage of Caucasians that are involved in Afro-Carribean spirtiual practices worldwide, it tends to be forgotten that these practices were originally the people's defense against colonialism and slavery, and a definite anti-white bias can still be found within certain aspects of the traditions.

like I said in an earlier post, you're dealing with people as well as spirits; and while spirits don't care about things like race or color, people still (unfortunately)do.
 
 
ghadis
14:26 / 30.11.01
Well timed thread..been reading a few books on Vodou/Santeria/Hoodoo recently...

It does seem that it requires a great deal of commitment to fully appreciate and be appreciated by these traditions...Hoodoo seems a more accesible way to go...It's something i think i'd like to explore more...


quote: And you shouldn't. While there certainly is a sizeable percentage of Caucasians that are involved in Afro-Carribean spirtiual practices worldwide, it tends to be forgotten that these practices were originally the people's defense against colonialism and slavery, and a definite anti-white bias can still be found within certain aspects of the traditions.
like I said in an earlier post, you're dealing with people as well as spirits; and while spirits don't care about things like race or color, people still (unfortunately)do.

This is also something i'm slightly worried about...The more political aspects...I live in Brixton which i know has a number of Botanicas...Not sure how i'm or they are going to feel when i pop in asking questions etc...

Lothar...Theres a good practical book on Palo Mayombe by Carlos G Montenegro
 
 
cusm
15:00 / 30.11.01
Any good Baba won't care for squat what color you are, if the lwa have you. They might find it amusing, though General populous on the other hand, can be a bit more predujiced.
 
 
grant
15:35 / 30.11.01
Well, in my area, it's not as much a black-white thing as a Cuban-Anglo thing. Language being a pretty big barrier in asking the pointed questions.
Also, in Cuba, the whole business is pretty much against the law and, as a result, secrecy is a BIG part of the tradition.

There IS a "Lucumi" church in Hialeah I want to visit someday, but I tend to get lost there, and it's not a town I go to for any other reason.
 
 
cusm
15:44 / 30.11.01
Well Grant, if you ever find yourself in rural West Virgina, there's a house of Ogun I can introduce you to. The locals just don't know quite what to think of them.
 
 
grant
15:44 / 30.11.01
Y'know, it strikes me that making a few definitions might be in order here, too.

By hoodoo, I'm referring to North American, Deep South folk magic. The only example I know off-hand is the crossroads ritual where you get talent on guitar by playing it consecutive weekend midnights at the crossroads and a "devil" comes and teaches you on the last night. Got it off luckymojo.com.

Voodoo I'd take as the Americanized version of an African religion that got here by way of French colonies (Haiti & Louisiana, mainly); Santeria/Lucumi would be the same African religion coming here via Cuba & other Spanish-speaking cultures. I don't know much about Candomble or Umabanda, which would be the same sort of thing via Brazil & the Portuguese colonies.
In my understanding, the "dark" equivalents of these religious traditions (mmm... Kongo in Voudoun and Palo Mayombe in Lucumi, I think - correct me if I'm wrong) would be much more results-oriented than the devotions of the "lighter" sides, and would thus be superficially closer to hoodoo.
Which is, as far as I can tell, ALL about results.

Much like Chaos Magick, actually.
 
 
grant
15:46 / 30.11.01
quote:Originally posted by cusm:
Well Grant, if you ever find yourself in rural West Virgina, there's a house of Ogun I can introduce you to. The locals just don't know quite what to think of them.

I'd be up for that!
North end of the state, or south? My godfather lives in Bluefield, near the southern border.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:23 / 30.11.01
At least in California race isn't as big of a factor as it could be. A lot of the Hispanic practitioners are 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation citizens of the U.S.

Like cusm said, if the orishas/loas etc. accept you that's the main thing.

The initiates that I know (California and Louisiana) are caucasian (if they have African or Hispanic blood it's pretty thin) and they've been having a fun time learning Spanish and/or French (other than certain names and terminology the various African languages don't seem to play in very much... but I could be wrong).

If you ever head out to California, I can introduce you to a couple people too.

I have a theory (based on nothing other than reading between the lines of conversations I've had with various botanica operators - so I might be completely full of shit here) that for the religion to continue to grow here it needs to start bringing caucasian folk into it.

There is an old saying that 'Voodoo doesn't exclude. it includes.' which means that the African spirits and their human followers will adapt and adopt whatever they need to be effective and survive.

As each generation becomes more 'American' (in the sense of U.S.A. America) the practitioners run the risk of their descendents being absorbed by the culture their living in.

Unless the religion starts to absorb the culture.

I think the Loas, Orishas, etc. WANT more white folk as long as those people are respectful and dedicated to the spirits and the religion. And I think that some of the Houngans, Santeros, Paleros etc. know this and want this too.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:25 / 30.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Clive of Urea:
Lothar...Theres a good practical book on Palo Mayombe by Carlos G Montenegro

Doh! I've heard of Montenegro but I haven't read his stuff so I completely forgot about him.

Thanks for listing him.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
16:35 / 30.11.01
quote:Originally posted by grant:
By hoodoo, I'm referring to North American, Deep South folk magic. The only example I know off-hand is the crossroads ritual where you get talent on guitar by playing it consecutive weekend midnights at the crossroads and a "devil" comes and teaches you on the last night. Got it off luckymojo.com.


My understanding is that 'hoodoo', while being a North American folk magic, was derived from the thaumaturgical aspects of the African religions, and were hence done primarily by the African slaves. And while it's certainly evolved since then (like most of the African magic that's found it's way here) it's still tied to those religions to some degree.

While the hard theurgy is the worship of the Loas, Orishas, etc. even the hoodoo aspects seem to usually involve invoking some syncretized Christian saint.

In practice it can be hard to separate the pure 'results magic' from the 'religion'. Having a 'devil' come out to meet you sounds an awful lot like having an Eshu spirit offer to teach you something after the proper ritual has been done.

And although you can do a pure 'hoodoo' candle ritual to curse someone, the spell may get a bit of an extra 'oomph' if you also burn a candle to the proper Saint/Orisha/Loa, etc. at the same time.
 
 
Ierne
23:25 / 01.12.01
I admit that my experience with Afro-Carribean traditions is limited to members of my family and family members of friends. They're older (50+) and all of them came to NYC from the Caribbean. They would never ever EVER let a white person join them, under ANY circumstances. Afro-American blacks, yes. Asians, yes (my maternal great-grandfather was Chinese and my maternal great grandmother was an initiate of Shango), Native Americans, but never whites.

They had to deal with a lot of prejudice in their day, so they really didn't want to deal with it on their own time, so to speak. And they still don't, even if times and outside attitudes have changed.

Of course not every practicioner feels this way; I do apologize if my previous posts came across as such. But that vibe IS out there, and if you're serious about following the spirits, be aware that it's out there, especially with the older folk.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:44 / 03.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
But that vibe IS out there, and if you're serious about following the spirits, be aware that it's out there, especially with the older folk.

I think you're quite right actually considering that the East Coast is so close to the Caribbean. You guys probably experience a lot more resistance out there than us West Coasters. While the families of a lot of West Coast practitioners may have been here for a few generations I bet the east coast sees a bunch of 1st Gen. Americans who either practiced in the Caribbean or who's parents did.

Miami even has a 'Little Haiti' doesn't it?
 
 
grant
17:17 / 03.12.01
Yeah. One of the two decent venues for non-cover, non-signed rock bands in in the middle of Little Haiti. The public radio also does a 15 minute broadcast in Creole every night at 7 pm, and there are about four or five round-the-clock Creole stations on the AM band.

So the culture's out there, it's just that the only elements from it I'm likely to encounter day-to-day would be the Americanized kids who reject all that chicken-sacrificing mumbo jumbo. If I interrogate my Cuban-American friends tirelessly, patiently, and a little sneakily, I'll eventually usually find a great aunt or grandmother or someone who works with saints or has shrines in the living room or kills chickens in the yard as offerings - but it's always very dismissed, or distanced-from, like they know it's all ridiculous. The fact that I'm interested in it at all can make it seem a bit like I'm Mr. Whitey Thrillseeker, looking for a kick at their expense. Which I'm not, I don't think, but still.

I'll keep rustling around, looking for more organized houses an' that. There was a Yoruba group in Gainesville my sister mixed up with. They were straight-up West African expats living on a Florida farm, I think, but the elements were there.

Point taken on the religion vs. results thing, Lothar. I'm sure there's no specific dividing line, more of a fuzzy area. Just trying to focus the thread, lest it go all over the diaspora.
 
  
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