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Has America peaked?

 
 
Char Aina
20:08 / 30.07.05
from snowmail, john snow's news bulletin email:

Discovery's damage
==================
It really is impossible to say from where we sit whether NASA are on a massive publicity drive trying to drum up still more money for their hair-brained flights or whether in fact the latest expedition is very serious trouble.
There is indeed some sort of tiling mishap on one of the wings - I suppose you could call it a hole, but I'm sure they can mend that. Still an air of eeriness has settled over the whole project. There's an awful danger that the images of the damaged shuttle lingering on the outstretched arm of the space lab is another symbol to be added to those that conjure the question: Has America peaked?
Iraq, Afghanistan, the blighted shuttle - equally I'm sure there must be those who say Iraq, Afghanistan, the shuttle - America in her finest hour. Now there's journalistic balance for you…


he mentions something that i feel has been on the tip of my brain for a while now.
that america is a sick empire is not a new idea, and often those who espouse it make wild claims as to evidence of this trend.
what is the evidence?
do you feel that america is waning?
are you more convinced by those who believe the USA will go from strength to strength than by those who feel their only century was the last one?

between tales of chinese cash reserves being large enough to cause the US problems and the birth of some radical approaches to debt and trade freedom, i wonder if we are on the brink of a fairly large shift in international power.
if america begins to lose influence i have no doubt their strong position in many of the large institutions that control our world will help them maintain good levels of control for a while.
could that change?
how would it change?
our current oligarchy of nations has inbuilt checks and balances that fight to maintain itself as do all power systems.
if the poor of the world were in any small way mobilised, however, that could change.
five billion people are hard to say no to.
getting them all to ask for the same things at the same time is of course another matter.

what do you think?

am i wrong to conflate the two topics of possible american descent and possible ascent of the poor?
 
 
alejandrodelloco
01:51 / 31.07.05
A bit, mainly because the descent of America will coincide with the ascent of China. From empire to empire, sadly.
 
 
Char Aina
12:54 / 31.07.05
hey, allejandrodelloco.
what do you feel points towards a the inevitability of decline for the american empire?
it certainly seem to me that you agree with the idea, but what has convinced you?
 
 
Slim
16:55 / 31.07.05
I don't believe America is descending, at least any time soon. If America's influence decreases, it'll be the result of the ascension of nations such as China or India. There's a difference between a collapse a la the Soviet Union and what happens when a new player enters the fray.

America will eventually decline but I don't see that happening for quite some time, maybe a century from now. In my opinion, it's going to happen because of our unwillingness to look at the playing field and develop plans for 10, 20 and 50 years from now like the Chinese do. Secondly, despite what some people on this board think, America doesn't play as dirty as China does. We do operate with a set of moral standards that keep us from exercising all the power at our disposal. It's going to be our downfall.
 
 
macrophage
23:15 / 31.07.05
The Global Elites have had bad fore-planning you mean. A thousand FEMA executive orders that never get implemented just enthused and fat-chewed over. On the cards - bad deals all around esp when the dealer fucked off with their watches as collateral!!!
 
 
Atyeo
11:14 / 01.08.05
I have no data to hand but I always asumed that there is massive US investment in China anyway, whether direct capital or through the large corporations.
 
 
Char Aina
11:48 / 01.08.05
as far as my friends who know more about economics than i do tell me, this is not the case.

china as US creditor:
ctrl+F "$200 billion dollars of U.S. debt"
and
WASHINGTON -- China's hoard of foreign currency has hit a record $711-billion (U.S.) as the country continues to park the proceeds of its swelling exports in central bank vaults rather than spend the cash.
 
 
Char Aina
12:08 / 01.08.05
china have also been sniffing around unocal, the oil company made more famous by their bid to build a pipeline in afghanistan.

(more on that last point here)
 
 
skolld
13:20 / 01.08.05
Payback for the Chines Opium Wars you mean. Zaibatsu and Samurai against blueshirted patriots

umm, Mac, just as a point of information, those are Japanese terms, not Chinese.

I think the restructuring of America is more probable than most people realize. We have a two front war going on right now. Add in one or two more and i think we could be in serious trouble. When (not 'if' at this point) China invades Taiwan i think that will change a few of the pieces on the board. I'm not sure how the Taiwan Relation Act will hold up. The TRA isn't as rock solid as the treaties we have to keep Korea and Japan secure. It will be interesting to see how it plays out though.
 
 
sleazenation
13:53 / 01.08.05
I have a feeling that Taiwan as it is curently constituted is not something that will last, the question is how successfully the US and China will negotiate Taiwan's future with both sides maintaining as much face as possible. I don't really see it becoming a hot war - too much is at stake economically and I don't think anyone in the US or China wants to countence the consequences of a modern pacific conflict...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:48 / 01.08.05
I can't find any references for it, but I'm sure I heard someone articulate the crisis-capitalism model, something about how capitalism works by forcing countries to take out huge overdrafts with international banks that they could never hope to repay, for countries to owe debts to one another they can't afford and so on. How much of the US's wealth does Michael Moore say the Saudis have again?
 
 
Char Aina
17:53 / 01.08.05
look into fractional reserve banking
for some ideas about how credit and interest have become so important in our current economic model.

also of interest might be george monbiot's piece entitled "there is no debt" which gives some idea of how this practice relats to the poorer countries in the world.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
18:33 / 01.08.05
Left business observer articles. The ones on (the) crisis (of) capitalism (which is inherent and cyclical).

War Is the Health of the State by Randolph Bourne in 1918 yet topical.

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds by Charles Mackay. (Nothing new.)
 
 
grant
20:45 / 01.08.05
1. I'm not sure having "peaked" is equal to being "in trouble" -- didn't Britain peak sometime before King Edward?

2. Slim: Secondly, despite what some people on this board think, America doesn't play as dirty as China does. We do operate with a set of moral standards that keep us from exercising all the power at our disposal. It's going to be our downfall.

I'm not sure what this means -- "playing dirty" and "moral standards."

Are you talking about sweatshops? Environmental regulations? In the larger sense of economic entities -- trading practices among megacorporations and conglomerates -- I don't think there's such a thing a playing clean. There are different levels of rules/governmental hindrances that affect businesses from country to country, but I don't think most BIG corporations are tied to countries any more.


Which brings up something I'm kind of curious about. Was in China that started sniffing around Unocal, or was it a Chinese company? Is there a difference?

Is it the same difference that there'd be between America (which may or may not play dirty) and an American company?

3. Atyeo: I have no data to hand but I always asumed that there is massive US investment in China anyway, whether direct capital or through the large corporations.

In one of the China threads, I linked to an article about a cell phone company that illustrated this principle, where it's gotten more efficient to actually start a Chinese business in China than to operate a branch office there. They make their own cellphones now, rather than making Nokias -- that was the example, put roughly.
 
 
Char Aina
21:28 / 01.08.05
i would agree, grant, that the waning of america may not be the impending end of america.
i see the process of decline as a slow one.
my feeling is that the last century, dubbed the american century by time magazine, is increasingly likely be the only one in which the USA wields such terrible and awesome power.

it certainly was america's finest hour in several respects, leaving aside the horror of japan in 1945 or the often painful history of US intervention, and i wonder if they have maybe burned their fuel too fast in the ascent.


on unacol;
The China National Offshore Oil Corporation, or CNOOC, one of China's largest state-controlled oil companies, made an unsolicited bid of $18.5 billion for Unocal

as far as i can tell its a chinese company, but one owned by the chinese government.
i dont know how much like the various DFID investments of our own government that is. i would guess that the level of control is higher in beijing than whitehall, but i have no real evidence on that score.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
03:01 / 02.08.05
Toksik, sorry for not elaborating. I just think that we are heading into a certain irrelevance (a.k.a. loss of #1 status) as we lose a hold on our economy (see some of the arguments in this thread) and with it, lose the our controlling position. Most of our economic power is heading into China as companies move their manufacturing there, and the US falls into this enormous trade deficit. The US won't fall, but it won't be on top any more.
 
 
Whale... Whale... Fish!
14:34 / 02.08.05
But what happens if countries switch from holding the dollar in reserve to holding the Euro instead?

It would be pretty lethal for the American economy. If Britain was to join it would make that almost a certainty.

Further European unification could also compound that. If going on a realist view point that power equates directly to military might, then a intigrated European armed forces, would even over shadow the US military, even if it would lag behind in terms of technology. And it would probably become a nessisity to protect European interests from Russia, China and the US.

Personally, I see an intergrated europe being a far bigger threat to the US hegemon than China or Russia are.

There are other reasons why imho it would be preferable for Europe to take over from the US and block China from coming to prominance. Mainly because the European electorate are still clinging to some resemblance of power, regardless of how small, and that the social movement is so much stronger, but that being said when do governments ever listen to the electorate?

Maybe it is also the case that all state power is waning, with global corporate power coming to prominance. Take the Iraq conflict for instance. It does seem that by and large this was done for the benefit of a handful of corporations. Furthermore, China itself resembles a giant monopolistic corporation and like all corporations no-one voted for them so it's hard to get rid of them.

I dunno, but I do see the fall of the US hegemon within our lifetimes. Once you have factored in the global energy crisis, and hence the desperate grabs for oil reserves, it doesn't look good.
 
 
sleazenation
15:16 / 02.08.05
I'd really like to see some figures backing up your assertions of European military strength Whale, because from all the reporting I've seen a united European Military (still pretty unlikely and a long way off at best) would still be significantly less powerful that the United States Armed services -

To use one arbitary yardstick that leaps to mind, according to this website the US currently has 10 Nimitz class Aircraft carriers, plus four other multi-role aircraft carriers of different types. By comparison, until earlier this week Britain had three far smaller Aircraft carriers, the French Navy has one as does the Spanish and Italian Navies.

That is still a pretty sizable difference in terms of force projection, and bear in mind that Europe possesses the bulk of non-US Aircraft carriers.

Not that I think the above proves anything, I'm lacking in numbers of people serving in European amries compared to the US Army for example, but I think it serves to illustrate that there is still a sizable gap in terms of force projection between the US and Europe...
 
 
Whale... Whale... Fish!
15:52 / 02.08.05
european-defence.co.uk was where the figures came from and I should have mentioned it before sorry. Will post more when I get home. This has been an unproductive day at the library.
 
 
Char Aina
17:55 / 02.08.05
Personally, I see an intergrated europe being a far bigger threat to the US hegemon than China or Russia are.

while i feel there is some potential for the EU to break US hegemony, it seems to me that that potential is limited. i think being one solid unit with one government is going to make china more succesful in this regard.
 
 
Slim
21:43 / 02.08.05
sleazenation is right, the combined might of EU nations would not touch that of the U.S. It's not close financially and the U.S. is also more advanced when it comes to weapons and tech.

Barring a catastrophe, no one is going to see the downfall of the United States. It's theoretically possible but I wouldn't put money on it.
 
 
sleazenation
22:31 / 02.08.05
Indeed, I highly doubt the waning of American influence will come through a straight military defeat, or even through a number of countries managing to band together and outspend the US military. I believe it is still US policy that the Military should be able to wage two large scale foreign wars and still have a reserve forces - I'm not sure of the details of this policy - anyone care to fill me in?

However, I think it fair to say that the US is currently looking weaker than it has at any time since the end of the Vietnam war. It's military is massively tied down and involved in the notoriously difficult problem of nation building in two large countries in the near and far east. Meanwhile the US seems to be lacking in much of a strategy to deal with nuclear powered states such as Pakistan and North Korea, seemingly supporting the view that to be safe from the threat of US invasion what you really need is a nuclear deterrant. This would seem to undermine the whole idea of nuclear non-proliferation. Outside of that, China is growing as an economic power in its own right and will threatening the dominence of the US in the global economy in the next two decades. Given this, the US's position as guarentor of Taiwanese independence seems at best problematic and at worst untenible. And on top of all this the US has recently been asked to leave its strtegically important base in Uzbekistan, a request that it will politically untenible not to grant...
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:32 / 02.08.05
sleazenation is right, the combined might of EU nations would not touch that of the U.S. It's not close financially and the U.S. is also more advanced when it comes to weapons and tech. - Slim

What do you base that on, Slim? Because a quick google seems to suggest that the EU is at least comparable to the US, in terms of GDP. I seem to remember reading that the gap between the US and the rest of the world has narrowed considerably in the last 50 years, but I can't find references for that at the moment. One recurring point in this kind of debate is that the US tends to spend a larger proportion of its GDP on defence than most EU countries - see here.

I'm not sure about weapons and tech.

I've had a few conversations with economists over the years, and I've certainly heard the idea put forward that the US is in decline. The trends in GDP and the budget deficit are sometimes put forward as indicators of this. Though one should be careful in projecting imminent doom, since this kind of decline could take decades or longer to really have an effect.
 
 
Slim
00:28 / 03.08.05
The GDPs are similar but the United States devotes much, much more of its budget to the military. Here's a quick link that shows military spending a couple years ago:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/spending.htm

USA: 466 billion
Rest of world: 500 billion

Here's a link to the CIA World Factbook's ranking on miltary spending:

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2067rank.html

As you can see, the US dwarfs European nations when it comes to spending. As far as percentage of GDP goes, the US is also ahead of all European nations except for Greece (I think).

I'm no expert on technology either but I do know that our new F-22 Raptors are the next generation of aircraft, putting us decades ahead of everyone else. As sleaznation mentioned earlier, our naval fleet is unmatched. Of course, all this matters little as the thought of going to war with an EU nation seems absurd at this point in time.

From what I understand, while the U.S. economy is still growing, it's been a decreasing growth. Obviously, that's not good and neither is the huge budget deficit but I don't know if that translates into an imminent economic collapse. Who knows, with a few policy changes we could erase some of the deficit and be peachy keen for a while longer. Everyone knows that the U.S. will eventually fall back to the pack economically but unless we experience something akin to the Great Depression, it might take a while.

(Keep in mind that I've only had a few econ courses in my undergrad and graduate career so I'm far from knowledgeable on the subject)
 
 
Lurid Archive
03:37 / 03.08.05
As you can see, the US dwarfs European nations when it comes to spending.

Yeah, it is about double (or slightly less, but one should probably factor in economies of scale) the combined spending of the EU which is a very large margin. Then again, the US has permanent military bases throughout the world, so one has to wonder how much of this spending is the cost of empire.

The fact that the US is the richest nation and spends a larger proportion of that income on the military than many other nations is not under dispute. I'm less convinced that this advantage is as much as people tend to assume, especially if we are entertaining hypotheticals of a combined EU military competitor. Having said all that, we are still talking about decades in the future, at least.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
07:51 / 03.08.05
I think China is the only place to be looking for a US competitor at the moment. On paper the EU may look like a better bet (more money, more advanced tech) but the EU as a fuctional international political body simply does not exist. Europe has never acted as a united military. Even if consensus could be reached, the reality would be 25 nations sending 25 armies with only loose coordination at the European level. I do not dispute that a fully intergrated EU could well rival or even out match the US but at the moment I expect full intergration to coincide with the next ice age.

(Sorry, but the grinding slow pace of the European project is really ticking me off at the moment).

I think that the other thing to think about is just how far does the US have to fall before it starts to create a difference. It occurs to me that the US can act as it does not because it is the richest and most advanced nation, but because it is by an order of magnitude. At the moment US GDP is 13 times that of China. If over the next 20-30 years we see that slip back to around 1.5 time then America would still be No. 1, but it's over-arching 'sole superpower' status would be gone. I believe that this would force a major rethink of US policy. America's ecconomy is already slipping and China is outstripping everyone else in the top 10. I think we are looking at a matter of a few decades before we see a major shift in international power relations.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
00:31 / 04.08.05
You also have to look at how China has revamped their defense capability. Instead of trying to catch up to the American model of Lots of Big Things and enormous raw strength, China has moved toward a smaller, more efficent model. That means they could very well be getting more for their money.

Eeep.
 
 
sleazenation
09:21 / 04.08.05
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not recalling any recent large scale conflicts involving the Chinese military, which goes even further into making them an unknown quality.
 
 
Slim
23:03 / 05.08.05
You also have to look at how China has revamped their defense capability. Instead of trying to catch up to the American model of Lots of Big Things and enormous raw strength, China has moved toward a smaller, more efficent model. That means they could very well be getting more for their money.

Why would you describe the American model that way? France's aircraft carriers are much smaller than our own. That doesn't make them more efficient, it makes them worse. The United States has the most technologically advanced military force in the world. Period. Our C^4 systems are unmatched and the same goes for our navy and airforce.

I have to take issue with your saying the Chinese are going for a smaller model. As far as I can tell, they're expanding their capabilities on all fronts. True, they're not diverting millions into a vastly increasing nuclear force but once you have 400 or so you don't really need any more. They are going to be the next powerhouse naval force and are currently moving towards possessing a blue water fleet. Since they don't have any aircraft carriers, they remain only a regional threat. The Chinese understand that if you want to be a global player, you need to have a global presence.

I would agree that some of the defensive capabilities they've been working on would make the American weapons look foolish. However, that's nothing new. We're having million dollar amphibs being blown up by a lump of explosive, some wire and a detonator. It's not hard to build a weapon that will exploit an Achilles heel, as the insurgents in Iraq prove day after day after depressing day.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not recalling any recent large scale conflicts involving the Chinese military, which goes even further into making them an unknown quality.

Not everything can be known but I think the government and the military have a fairly good idea of what they can do. The fact that we do know what the Chinese are capable of is the reason why their military might should not be underestimated.
 
 
diz
05:02 / 06.08.05
do you feel that america is waning?

yes, i do. basically, to me, it comes down to two crucial weaknesses:

1) debt. debty-debt-debt-debt. the Federal government is crippled with debt, though you'd never know it by how Congress is spending money. most state and local governments are in similar situations, and even personal debt loads (credit card debt, especially) are at critical levels. our entire economy is overleveraged at every level and we're due for a major economic collapse.

it's also worth noting that our massive military power is based on the fact that we're able to blow unlimited amounts of money on our military. once we can't spend anymore, our military advantage is going to crumble. also, huge swaths of the country are totally dependent on farm subsidies which are also going to dry up once our current bills come due.

2) oil. more than any other developed country, we're tied to our oil age infrastructure, which is going to be unsustainable soon. the suburban sprawl is just not going to be able to be maintained once we hit peak oil, and the urban cores are totally falling apart, totally car-dependent, etc etc.

these factors both play off each other in nasty ways: our economy is vulnerable to upward swings in the price of oil, leading us to more and more deficit spending, but the more debt we rack up, the less likely we'll be able to afford to sink money into building a post-oil infrastructure.

then there's leapfrogging. paradoxically, countries which are underdeveloped now have a significant advantage in that they aren't tied to an increasingly outdated fossil-fuel-driven industrial base, and can pour their development money into greener stuff.

sleazenation is right, the combined might of EU nations would not touch that of the U.S. It's not close financially and the U.S. is also more advanced when it comes to weapons and tech.

as Lurid points out, you're wrong on the economic point. a more closely bound EU would rival or exceed the US in economic power.

with regard to military power, you're right, but military power is less relevant now than it has been in the past, since any major power has more to gain from trade relationships than it does from war, and the latter tends to damage the former. as US libertarian Thomas Friedman puts it, two countries in the same global supply chain will never go to war.

major military forces are now, basically, police forces deployed primarily to maintain the level of global stability that best facilitates trade.

the fact that the US has the most uber-powerful military the world has ever seen is now a liability, not an asset, as its the result of a catastrophic misallocation of resources that is one of the biggest contributor to our fatal debt situation, as mentioned above.

I believe it is still US policy that the Military should be able to wage two large scale foreign wars and still have a reserve forces - I'm not sure of the details of this policy - anyone care to fill me in?

that's basically the doctrine that's held sway since 1991 or so, the idea being that we might need to fight wars simultaneously in two places at once. officially, those are any two hypothetical wars, but in real terms it's Iraq and NK we've been planning for.

that's still the doctrine on the table, AFAIK, with nudges in the direction of counterterrorism and asymmetrical warfare since 9/11. the degree to which the military is actually capable of performing to that level is up for debate, but recent manpower shortages seem to suggest that we're not. however, political support for a draft just isn't there, so that may not be changing anytime soon.
 
 
sleazenation
09:56 / 06.08.05
Firstly, I'd just like to point out that I didn't pass any comment on comparisons between the economies of the EU and the US - (Not something that anyone has claimed to any large degree, but it is worth pointing out I feel). I was talking purely about military projection, an admittedly flawed, but by no means less important, means of comparing 'influence' or that other intangible quality, 'prestige'.

On the economy, and baring in mind that it isn't my strong suit, I have heard it put that the current US economic plan is to make the US so favourable that its main trading partners plough even more money into the US economy, buying US goods (although many of these are subsidised). Thus, the US's trading partners essentially benefit from subsidising US spending. I think part of that idea is that the US economy is so important to the global economy that collecting/forclosing its debts would actually hurt everyone involved- to what extent do people think this is a fair analysis?
 
 
Slim
15:31 / 06.08.05
as Lurid points out, you're wrong on the economic point. a more closely bound EU would rival or exceed the US in economic power.

I was never referring to economic power. Lurid had misinterpreted me.

with regard to military power, you're right, but military power is less relevant now than it has been in the past, since any major power has more to gain from trade relationships than it does from war, and the latter tends to damage the former. as US libertarian Thomas Friedman puts it, two countries in the same global supply chain will never go to war.

The U.S. is exercising quite a bit of military power so I would say that it's still relevant. But yes, I don't see any large wars between the U.S. and its trade partners occuring.

the fact that the US has the most uber-powerful military the world has ever seen is now a liability, not an asset, as its the result of a catastrophic misallocation of resources that is one of the biggest contributor to our fatal debt situation, as mentioned above.

The military is not a liability. Are we spending too much on it? Yes. If we reduced military spending by a considerable amount the next go 'round would it cease to be a problem? Yes.

And our debt situation is not fatal. While it's not good, we still have the opportunity to change matters for the better. As long as we have the strongest economy in the world, if we use the correct economic policies we can right the ship.

that's basically the doctrine that's held sway since 1991 or so, the idea being that we might need to fight wars simultaneously in two places at once

That's the current doctrine but I'm almost positive that the military is looking into changing the 1-4-2-1 structure. The 2005 QDR should be very interesting.

I think part of that idea is that the US economy is so important to the global economy that collecting/forclosing its debts would actually hurt everyone involved- to what extent do people think this is a fair analysis?

I believe that's true. The U.S. economy is so ubiquitous that everyone would suffer if it suddenly tanked. Perhaps much like what happened when the U.S. depression caused a similar situation in Europe.

I'm noticing a lot of pessimism towards the U.S. military and the economy. I'm beggining to think that much of this is based on wishful thinking. I don't blame people for not liking how the U.S. military is used or how the economy operates on moral terms but I think some of this is shading what should be an objective look at our military forces and the economy.
 
 
sleazenation
08:41 / 07.08.05
Slim - I'm not sure what you mean by the term "pessimism towards the U.S. military and the economy"

I would argue, as I have above (but with slightly fewer typos this time) that;

The US is currently looking weaker than it has at any time since the end of the Vietnam war. It's military is massively tied down and involved in the notoriously difficult problem of nation building in two large countries in the near and far east. Meanwhile the US seems to be lacking in much of a strategy to deal with nuclear powered states such as Pakistan and North Korea, seemingly endorsing the view that to be safe from the threat of US invasion what you really need is a nuclear deterrant. This would seem to undermine the whole idea of nuclear non-proliferation. Outside of that, China is growing as an economic power in its own right and will be in a position to threaten the dominence of the US in the global economy in the next two decades. Given this, the US's position as guarantor of Taiwanese 'independence' seems at best problematic and at worst untenible. And on top of all this the US has recently been asked to leave its strategically important base in Uzbekistan, a request that it will politically untenible not to grant...

There are other factors I could add, such as the US's ongoing inability to take down its number one most wanted, Osama Bin Laden, and the possibility that he is hiding somewhere with in the territory of a less than helpful, nuclear powered allie. They do all seem to point to a waning of US 'influence' and 'prestige' around the world.
 
  
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