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Definitions of Magic

14:07 / 28.07.05

So. What is Magic? How do you define it? How do you distinguish it from other things?

15:07 / 28.07.05

Magic is the art of nudging the random consequences of a event into the path you want.

Not sure how I would explain it's difference to ordinary stuff other than it doesn't feel the same.

Unconditional Love

15:25 / 28.07.05

A totallly instinctual, unrational,illogical,unconscious act, much like conception.

Do i train one sperm in particular before having sex to be the one that fertilises the egg. I turn inwards locating the most fast swiiming sperm in my testes, i make it aware of its holy guardian angel, i sufuse it with god forms and divine intelligence, i arm it with magical weapons, so its descent through the tubes goes unhindered, i give it a magickal name to garner the sperm with power.

erm yeah right.

Totally instinctual, unconscious act driven by instinct and primal power, lust, need. The ability to create, to join and create life and in the moment of conception create death. Similar to thoughts in consciousness.

The mother who lifts a car to save her child from being crushed, of course shes been practicing at home with her daughters toy car, lay under there thats it, i invoke arnold come unto me arnold in my times of need.

The more primal, unconscious and instinctual your intent the more inherantly magical.

15:59 / 28.07.05

Just for reference, here's Crowley's theorem's:

1) Magick is the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in
conformity with Will.

2) ANY required change may be effected by the application of the
proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner, through the
proper medium to the proper object.

3) Every intentional act is a Magickal act.

4) Evey successful act has conformed to the postulate.

5) Every failure proves that one or more requirements of the
postulate have not been fulfilled.

6) The first requisite for causing any change is thorough
qualitative and quantitative understanding of the conditions.

7) The second requisite of causing any change is the practical
ability to set in right motion the necessary forces.

8) "Every man and every woman is a star". That is to say, every
human being is intrinsically an independant individual with
his own proper character and proper motion.

9) Every man and every woman has a course, depending partly on the
self, and partly on the environment which is natural and
necessary for each. Anyone who is forced from his own course,
either through not understanding him- self, or through
external opposition, comes into conflict with the order of the
Universe, and suffers accordingly.

You can read the rest here.

I've more to say but I really need to scurry off to work.

Unconditional Love

16:09 / 28.07.05

Having just read that, id say it says not alot about magic as i understand it, but a hell of alot about aleister crowleys ideas about his own personal method of magic and what its terms are to him.

17:23 / 28.07.05

it says not alot about magic as i understand it

walkingincircles, would that not show that you disagree with uncle Al? That your understanding of magic is different to his doesn't necessarily imply that *he* is wrong.
Is that the first time you've come across Crowley's theorems?

While I'm happy to agree conception is a magical thing, your definition of magic is a little problematic- if I consciously perform a ritual to change the world by magic, by your def that's not magic.
Am I misunderstanding?

power vacuums & pure moments

19:41 / 28.07.05

A totallly instinctual, unrational,illogical,unconscious act, much like conception.

Where does the intent of the magikal operation fit in if magik is defined as an unconcious act?

What you describe sounds to me like peter carroll's definition of 'high magik' - spontaneous and spectacular instances of reality bending that manifest entirely without ego-contamination.

If i had a definition of magik it would be centered around the paradox of consciousness persisting in states in which self-awareness ceases or is reduced. For me that is 'where' magik takes place.

Unconditional Love

01:51 / 29.07.05

I read crowley years ago and occasionally go through his stuff now and again. I dont see crowley as an authority on magical practice.

I am not saying a consciously performed ritual is not magick, but for me it isnt, but if ive done that ritual perhaps 500 - 1000 times for me that becomes magick, the conscious awareness is lost, it becomes like breathing, or a heart beat, blood pumping. when i stop performing the ritual its still there living inside of me and begins to only need an occasional performance as reminder eventually no performance is nessecary, rememberence becomes the ritual, and then feeling, until eventually its subsumed entirely.

Magick to me is like learning to ride a bike, the more you do it the more intentional it becomes, til youve relaxed enough to just ride and then your riding without trying.

so perhaps it begins as a conscious act. or perhaps i find some habitual patterns useful til that habit is unconscious, i think the intent becomes unconscious through repeated ritual.

For example can you remember the conscious process you went through to learn to read? how useful would it be if you consciously learnt to read everytime you went into chat?

If your looking to awaken to a higher awareness by being conscious all the time, higher than what? and why would that be a nessecarily good thing? what are you awakening too, trying to achieve by being conscious?

My unconscious nature keeps me alive, my conscious socialisation process and reasoning seems to do nothing but stop me enjoying my nature? why focus on consciousness? why not for example submit to all the *lower* instinctual drives?

I often see magic defined as something other and alien or special, its bloody normal. people are using the principles in everday life, especially those of sympathetic magic. just look at the effects of advertising, word of mouth, gossip. the identification and faith creates the magic til its so prevalent its accepted.

08:55 / 29.07.05

Walking in circles: I don't think your ideas on this are as contradictory to Crowley's line of thinking as they might first appear. I think the key point to note in the quoted section above is this bit:

8) "Every man and every woman is a star". That is to say, every
human being is intrinsically an independant individual with
his own proper character and proper motion.

9) Every man and every woman has a course, depending partly on the
self, and partly on the environment which is natural and
necessary for each. Anyone who is forced from his own course,
either through not understanding him- self, or through
external opposition, comes into conflict with the order of the
Universe, and suffers accordingly.

I think that "Magick" as Crowley defines it, is about the process of living according to your true nature. Aligning yourself to your natural course, or what he calls the True Will. I think when Crowley goes on about a Magickal act being a willed act, he means an act that is in accordance with the True Will, which is synonomous with the Will of the Universe. It's the natural unconscious flow that you are talking about, the moment when the kung fu training ceases to be consciously directed motion and becomes natural defensive movement. Arguably, some of the ideas in Thelema could be seen as a very British Modernist filter on Taoism.

So I think that positing Magick as a "consciously" willed act is a bit misleading, even in terms of Thelema, and the emphasis should perhaps be on Crowley's definition of the word "Will". It's something that goes beyond what your conscious mind wants or desires, and is better thought of as your nature and the core of your being finding its fullest expression. A "Magickal" act is an act that is in accordance with this Will, whereas an act that is contrary to your True Will comes into "conflict with the order of the universe, and suffers accordingly"

However, two questions remain:

1. Do we accept that "Magick" is exactly the same beast as "magic"?
2. If a "Magickal" act is an act performed in accordance with your Will, does that mean that the natural Thelemic motion of scratching your arse genuinely is a Magickal gesture?

17:09 / 29.07.05

For reference, here's some definitions of the word from wikipedia and wiktionary;

Wikipedia;

'Magic is a supposed way of influencing the world through supernatural, mystical, or paranormal means.'

'..."religion" refers to a system of established beliefs, and "magic" and "pagan" are labels used by people within that system to describe beliefs and practices that conflict with or are outside of that system.'

Wiktionary;

magic
-supernatural occurrences or feats.
-an illusion performed to give the appearance of magic or the supernatural.
-A ritual associated with mysticism.
-A cause not quite understood. Magic makes the light go on.
-something spectacular or wonderful. movie magic

Synonyms
thaumaturgy
sleight-of-hand
legerdemain
sorcery
witchcraft
conjuring

Adjective
magic
-having supernatural talents, properties, or qualities
a magic wand; a magic dragon
-featuring illusions that are usually performed for entertainment a magic show; a magic trick
-wonderful, amazing or incredible a magic moment

Etymology-
'The word magic ultimately derives from Magus (Old Persian maguš, one of the Zoroastrian astrologer priests of the Medes. In the Hellenistic period, Greek magos could be used as an adjective , but an adjective magikos (Latin magicus) is also attested from the 1st century (Plutarchus), typically appearing in the feminine, in magike techne (Latin ars magica) "magical art". The word entered the English language in the late 14th century from Old French magique.'

17:11 / 29.07.05

...and arse.

02:00 / 30.07.05

According to some a buncha no good bum bandits and lezzas who know how to cast evil eyes at the washed and perfumed and can spit out barbaric glossolia like a tiger preying on baby rabbits - ah!! I'm only joking now where's me Tiger's Eye to protect me against you Infidels! A sleight of mind where others (the public) may fear or even ridicule you as you become this Frankenstein Idiom and Enigma to all!!! Iconoclasts who don't want to glue with the stasi quorum of pundits with their healings fake charlatanaries an all that and would only happily heal those if they actually came upto the sage in question and they would do it for less than them cheats in their dolphin shops - all hail that cheese that is lactose free and made from nuts in Wales! People who exist as infinite geeks and have ebook libraries and book remembrances but also different praxises for their work. Some do and some do at the weekend and some dress up for the occassion. An art of doing that never ends a fun driven roller coasted ride through the Path of No Return. Some do empty handed and some fake their way entirely till they do it! Whether you exist as a wordsmith, a metaphorist, a telepathic transmitter, a musician incorporating WSB ideas, a pantacle fetishist, a mastubatory quilophic genius, etc.... All the fun of the fair!!!!! Time travel and become like Countess Bathory and Solomon - fantasise your virtual magicks how you do - and fuck em all - they excrete at the smell of Aromatics and Incenses. I think you know what types I'm on about - them who run away from the tarot cos it will impinge all sorts of nasty demons on them - tee hee!!! Evoke Evil Zelda of the Terrorhawks (vultures of maut) and dispatch with an impunity that no cosmic irradiation will unturn any dusty devil vortex at no fixed address oil rig facility!!! Ah FANTASY IMAGINATION WILL REALITY!!!!!

08:28 / 30.07.05

Yes indeed, magick is imagination made real. Spirit enters matter through will. 5=6. We cast thought into stone, extrude mind into matter. The exteriorizing of the Soul. As we become gods we're turning ourselves inside out. It's the only way to bring the outside back in. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall. Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. The Cosmic Egg. This is your reality on drugs, cracked and dropped onto a skillet, bubbling up, Orphic. What eats eggs? Serpents. Orpheus and Ophidian. Bring the snakes back to Ireland. DMT always makes me feel my body more, every ache and pain and strained muscle. It's like dipping your feet in the cemetary swimming pool. Or maybe reaching back into Eden through that 5D bug dust wormhole, putting the shell back together a piece at a time...

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:54 / 30.07.05

(Mod hat) macrophage, as you are very well aware, sexual slurs do not go over on Barbelith at all. I suggest you moderate your post accordingly. Could you also please have a stab at introducing a little coherency into your writing here? Thanks.

Scrambled Password Bogus Email

11:38 / 30.07.05

How does the 'Ignore' function work, please? That suit, and a couple of others, really drag this otherwise splendid place down.

13:45 / 30.07.05

Like electricity.

Meaningful.

I don't.

13:55 / 30.07.05

So I think that positing Magick as a "consciously" willed act is a bit misleading, even in terms of Thelema, and the emphasis should perhaps be on Crowley's definition of the word "Will". It's something that goes beyond what your conscious mind wants or desires, and is better thought of as your nature and the core of your being finding its fullest expression. A "Magickal" act is an act that is in accordance with this Will, whereas an act that is contrary to your True Will comes into "conflict with the order of the universe, and suffers accordingly"

The modern/western/pop-psychology/capitalist mode of understanding the self tends to frame the Ego as central to being.
But what "I" want is often very different from what "my ego" wants.

In the Lord's prayer, in koine Greek it goes "Gennithito to thelema Sou"; "Thy Will become" or "Thy Will be born". Crowley knew this when he picked the word Thelema. Completely devoting one's being to a force outside of the 'ego' - whether we call it God or Will or Tao etc.
In a lot of western magic discourse the ego is confused with the core of the being. Magical techniques used in service of the ego (elevated to a narcissistic deity figure) are very different from Magick.

Consciousness or Subconsciousness or Unconsciousness at the end of the day are quite relative words which differ in meaning according to context. When one is improvising honestly on a musical instrument for example, we can say its conscious or subconscious or hyperconscious or whatever, the point is that awareness (the assemblage point to use castaneda's term)is shifted. To where, to a place where reality is beyond words.

Unconditional Love

14:17 / 30.07.05

Spirit enters matter? Really is this the top down mind is the only reality school of thought, all is consciousness? Given form of course in that base matter?

Thats the problem created when magick becomes a system of belief.

How about we posit the opposite just for fun and see where that takes us.

In the beginning there was matter, and matter was good very good, from matter arose more impure substances like imagination, spirit and mind, these distractions grew and grew, until eventually they became most peoples reference points and matter began to suffer. matter mother mater she the great one, the all mother, looked at her son spirit and saw that he had been a naughty boy, He hated his mother. He was destroying her, her gardens were dying, her sea filled with toxicity, her air coloured by toxins. Why because that old lie had been cast by the first son. Spirit is the true reality, that first lie had been killing mother since it was said. Her children used there distractions to keep the suffering at bay, they became more and more distracted by spirit and imagination until it was too late, and it is too late.

Those that still listened to mother were filled with her pain and suffering, her death throws, but nobody really wants to pay attention to the matter, especially when its filled with agony suffering and pain. Put me back in front of the box with coloured lights please. Give me a drug, anything to take away her pain.

The priesthood steals the femininity of women in order to control til the women takes it back. Somethings are changing.

How does it relate to a definition of magic? magic is greatly influenced by judaeo/christian belief in western hermetic circles, alot of what is considered acceptable is based on premises that arise from ingrained philosophies from previous generations, there basis lies in the preservation of a tradition, the preservation of tradition is a means to accumulate power, it in no way implies a truth but more a consistant unquestioned belief, a self defining emanation of itself for its own survival at the expense of any other system it may encounter if it cannot be included within the current contextual framework.

Magickal belief systems are inclusive to a point. Exclusion or conflict will also arise from having one.

16:38 / 30.07.05

Mordant, that's just the drunk version of macrophage.

Circles, the spiritisation of matter was a big part of Crowley's system. In fact, one could say that it represents the entire western path in a nutshell. The western path engages matter and tries to see how it is a reflection of deity. The eastern path (to generalize) seeks to dissolve matter, seeing it as illusory.

5=6 reflects this in the LRP. Calling the hexagram into the pentagram. The myth of God sending his son down to earth recapitulates this theme.

Unconditional Love

15:30 / 31.07.05

These days LVX its beginning to sound more and more like alot of escapism to me.

It doesnt engage me with the physicality of the reality i experience, my primary identification is with my body, my mind is an afterthought of my body, my environment is magic, all i need do is go for a walk in the woods or stare at my own hand to see the work of creation.

There really is no need for a systematic approach, nature in all its beauty and horror is surely evidence enough of magic?

Why does magic need to become some sort of elaborate mind game? some sort of book collection and literary tradition.

Does magic need to be thought? Or can it just be felt?

Unconditional Love

15:40 / 31.07.05

Can you shift from words to thinking in gastric juices, consumption and digestion, gut feelings, instinct. The large intestine acting as a bioelectric battery.

Sinking into the primal gloop of nature, the primal force, the abyss beneath the waters.

I find thinking with my dick very easy.

18:08 / 31.07.05

There really is no need for a systematic approach, nature in all its beauty and horror is surely evidence enough of magic?

Absolutely. Some people apprehend this naturally. Some people need esoteric systems to help them get there. And some people feel the glory of nature with ease but enjoy seeing how magickal systems reflect and interpret that glory. And I'd argue that the glory of witnessing an awe-inspiring sunset is in some ways different from the glory of witnessing the inner sun on 200mics of lsd after a month of fasting and mantra. Why not enjoy both paths?

Why does magic need to become some sort of elaborate mind game?

It doesn't. Some people like mind games. Some need them. Pursued correctly, the mind games will yield to simple, willed action & experience. We're complex, semiotic, internal creatures. For most, you have to work your way through the mind to get to the core. This is where the logical systems of magick are to be employed but once you get there the logic falls away and you just ARE.

Does magic need to be thought? Or can it just be felt?

Yes.

There is no one way except The Way. The greatest contribution of the chaos magick path, IMHO, is the recomendation that one ought to simly do what works best.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

20:32 / 31.07.05

Magic, to me, has always been about bending the rules of a system, or going around them, or just plain re-writing them to get what you want. If you want to take a mystical slant: we're writing all the rules to the universe anyway, so why can't we make changes here and there?

There was a time when science, religion, and magic were considered the same thing. At least, you went to the same guy for all three.

03:50 / 01.08.05

Magic is sacred inexplicable change.