BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


7/7 vs 9/11- let's try this one again, shall we?

 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:03 / 18.07.05
A little introduction- The original thread having drifted so far off topic that there were two totally different discussions taking place, it's been generally agreed that having two separate threads is the best idea. The original's been locked, but not deleted, so any points you may have made that you feel you'd like to make again are still there for all your cutting and pasting requirements.

Note- this is the thread for discussion sparked by Ganesh's original post (reproduced below). If you don't want to talk about that, but want to talk about something else, then please do it in a different thread. Should you wish to discuss the equally valid (but separate) topic of terrorism and religion, Citizen Frances has kindly started a thread for that here. If you wish to discuss this moderator decision, then we can do it in the Policy.

Anyway, without further ado, the words below were posted by Ganesh on July 13th, six days after the bombings on London's public transport system.


From the moment people first started calling the London bombings '7/7', it was inevitable there'd be comparisons with the World Trade Centre tragedy. Toward the end of the 7th of July and in the days that followed, comparisons flowed thick and fast, from US and UK media.

Obviously, being the single biggest terror attack (in terms of fatalities) on British soil, since whenever, it was going to be held up against the single biggest terror attack (in terms of fatalities) on American soil. The pattern of attacks (several explosions, in the public/civilian sphere, happening more or less simultaneously) was also extremely similar to those on 9/11.

Even as the event was being reported by the British media, there was some evidence of contrast. I can't recall the specifics but, on the afternoon of the bombings, there were accounts of some sort of establishment involving "American students": the audio reports talked about them crying and saying they wanted to go home. Although no comment was made upon this, the article was topped and tailed with interviews with injured-yet-stoical Londoners vowing the attack would not cause them to change their habits "because then the terrorists would've won".

Subsequent to 7/7, the coverage on the UK side has tended to emphasise the 'Spirit of the Blitz' casualness with which the attack was treated, and speculate that this was because London has had a history of violence (Guy Fawkes, World War II, IRA bombings, etc.) or because doughty Londoners are a particularly hardy breed (not quite sure how they can divorce this from the history of bombings, etc.).

At least some of the coverage on the US side has tended to compare the London bombings with the World Trade Centre attack - tending to compare 7/7 wth 9/11, noting the difference in reaction on both sides of the Atlantic (both defiant, but Londoners blase while New Yorkers were shocked to the core) but frequently drawing the conclusion that the British will somehow "understand" or sympathise with US feeling subsequent to 9/11 ie. the War on Terrrrr, the Patriot Act, etc., etc., etc.

I'm not sure how I feel on the whole thing. On the one hand, I feel proud that Londoners are able, ostensibly, to shrug off a major terrorist attack and make a beeline for the pub (perhaps the presence of pub culture in the UK but not the US is relevant in the reactions to disaster of both nations?), and I'm irritated by attempts to make our bombings the "British 9/11" (not the same scale, not the same symbolic importance, not the same history of being attacked). On the other, I'm started to get scratchy with the resurgence of "plucky little Englander" cant.

I'm not sure where this is heading. I suppose I'd intended this thread to be a comparison of 7/7 and 9/11, and the reactions to both events, in terms of population and media. Do as thou wilt.
 
 
Smoothly
22:00 / 18.07.05
Then I said:

One of the things that struck me about 7/7 is that it tipped in terms of popular concern. I mean, practically everyone I know called me that day to check that I was okay. And I did the same. Barbelith did the same. Maybe this is significant. There have been a number of incidents in the years I've lived in London - from train crashes to nightclub shootings - that have killed people, people who could've been me. But my friends didn't call. I don't remember a Barbelith roll call after, say, the Potters Bar rail crash.
And I don't think that's just to do with the number of casualties. In purely statistical terms, the chance of being killed last Thursday can't have been that much higher than the Thursday before. And anyway, I don't think people do that calculation. I think the panic (and there was some panic) had much more to do with the type of event it was, and that's where the comparison with 9/11 comes up.

London might be (relatively) inured to terrorist attack after decades of IRA activity, but this was the New Terrorism - multiple, civilian targets; maximised casualties; no warning; no demands; apparently using suicide bombers. I think that scared people in the same way that 9/11 scared people. I'm probably being very inarticulate about this, but there was a sense that those who weren't injured (wherever they were) weren't so much spared as *missed*. It wasn't so much 'It could have been me' so much as 'It was meant to be me'. Does that make sense? Maybe that's how 9/11 felt.

I'm not sure if this had any effect on the way London 'recovered' although around me there did seem to be an attitude of 'Fuck you, you missed me', rather than 'Phew, that was close', and perhaps this translated into the pub-going stoicism that probably is closer to the spirit of the Blitz than anything we've experienced since WW2. However, I don't really buy this idea that Londoners were particularly nonchalant about 7/7, or that we were remarkably unhysterical. When has it ever been different? Ok, Diana. *Apart* from Diana, when has it ever been different?

It feels a bit gauche to compare 7/7 with 9/11 because the scale is so disproportionate, but something else I've noticed is that the emergency services haven't been lionised in the same way as they were in New York. It's true that they didn't suffer casualties the NYFD or NYPD did, but they stormed into the thick of it when bombs still appeared to be going off, and they're still down there now, in 60 degree heat, pulling bodies out of the rat-infested wreckage. And as Stoatie mentioned in another thread, I've not seen any more flags. I wonder why this is?


And I'm still wondering about those last two things.
 
 
m
00:39 / 19.07.05
It's interesting to compare the US media's coverage of last year's bombing in Madrid with the recent ones in London. Despite both having similar scenarios with similar numbers of casualties, the London bombings were immediately tied to 9/11 and treated with a level of panicky sympathy, whereas the Madrid bombings were only ever handled with clinical journalistic detachment. The day after the Madrid bombing, the media focused on how the bombing was going to effect the Spanish elections and Spain's involvement in the "War on Tehr", and there was never that "are we next?" subtext that we've been getting for the last couple of weeks.
 
 
sleazenation
08:38 / 19.07.05
Also worth comparing with last weekend's massive bombings in Bagdad link here. more dead than the London bombings, but it was in Iraq rather than 'The West'...
 
 
Quantum
10:08 / 19.07.05
Personally, my experience of the two events was subjectively pretty similar- at work, found out through the internet, got the best info and accurate updates from Barbelith, felt shocked and as though something momentous was happening, contacted friends who may be in danger, worried about follow-up attacks. Mind you, I felt pretty similar about the Madrid event, which the media didn't seem to consider as important as English-speaking victims of terror. As usual.
 
 
Quantum
10:29 / 19.07.05
I found out something interesting yesterday, a friend of my family is a station supervisor at one of the bombed stations (uninjured because he went out for a fag at the right time) and he's had *no* disaster training for emergencies. He said the emergency services were rubbish.

There was no police/fire/ambulance presence for at least the first half hour, when they arrived they were panicky and disorganised. In fact he didn't let them into the tunnels until they had got a grip, for fear of making the situation worse.

Conversely, the injured passengers were fantastic, the LU staff were heroic (it was the drivers who ushered people out of the tunnels etc.) in fact it was three or four underground staff who managed the whole thing at that station (the one's who didn't panic) for the most important time immediately after the explosions (or 'power surges' as they were then).

Just thought I'd share with you all, the professionals were less effective than the 'civilians'. Surprising.
 
 
Smoothly
11:00 / 19.07.05
That’s interesting. And runs contrary to the official line at the time about how all the new disaster recovery plans and anti-terrorism training swung into action like a well oiled machine. Might go some way to explaining why there have been no resonating eulogies of note from the people on the ground.

Another half a thought: In terms of the comparison between this and 9/11, does it make any difference that London’s bombers were British nationals? Is it harder to get all resolute and flag-wavey when you share that flag with the terrorists?
 
 
sleazenation
11:18 / 19.07.05
But Britains don't really wave the flag. There is much talk of 'Britishness', but specifically the British homes seldom have the Union Flag on their own flagpole...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:23 / 19.07.05
Yes, it is much less a British thing- the one time I went to America (last year) there were flags everywhere in Massachusetts- I asked mono if that had always been the case and she said there were always SOME flags anyway, just that there were more these days- it was more like an existing trend that was enhanced, rather than a new thing.
 
 
sleazenation
11:27 / 19.07.05
Also quite interesting to add is the information IraqBodycount.com. The source is considered relatively authoratitive, at least, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has not disputed them.

Apparently over 20,000 innocent civillians have been killed in Iraq in the last two years.

BBC coverage of the stats here.
 
 
Jake, Colossus of Clout
15:16 / 19.07.05
Stoatie- the flag thing exploded after 9/11. Some people always used to display the flag, but now you drive down the main street of any given town and see a flag on every telephone pole. I think it's kind of creepy, actually. The worst are the huge flag decals that morons put on their cars, though. Those and the horrid yellow ribbon magnets. Fodder for another thread, though, I suppose.
 
 
Sax
08:09 / 20.07.05
I wonder if there's anything to be said about the lack of an iconic image attached to 7/7 as opposed to 9/11. In the latter, of course, we had the Twin Towers in various states of collapse, an image which has been imprinted into the worldwide consciousness and probably will stay there for many generations to come. In London there was... a bus with its roof blown off? That woman in the burns mask? People streaming out of Tube stations? Powerful in their own right, yes, but not as iconic. And for that reason alone, I think, 9/11 will always remain as the definitive modern terrorism attack.
 
 
Ganesh
18:34 / 20.07.05
Well, yes, the Twin Towers were perhaps the ultimate architectural symbols of shiny urban capitalism, and whopping great phalluses (phalli?) to boot. By comparison, London's Underground is relatively non-iconic, vaginal rather than phallic (hole rather than pole) and something many Londoners would thank you for destroying.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
20:00 / 29.09.06
FYI: "7 July survivor sues government" (BBC NEWS webpage link)

I hope she breaks the bastards. How fucking dare they? If she's hurt, help her. Simple.

This just turns my stomach, and makes me think: "%Oh no, New Labour et al. aren't killing everything the UK has left to help people are they?%"

Fuck. The New Tories are probably going to scrape the next election, and then...

I despair...

I need a lie down...
 
 
Francine I
00:34 / 30.09.06
"The worst are the huge flag decals that morons put on their cars, though."

I realize this adds little in the way of topical content, but I'm personally most amused by the stickers that fade from red, white, and blue... to pink, white, and baby blue. They say at the bottom in a very stoic looking typeface "These colors won't run!"
 
 
COG
17:44 / 30.09.06
The English flags all come out for the football though. Maybe it's just that they're available in Tescos at those times, whereas I've no idea where I would go if I wanted to buy a Union Jack to hang on my house.
 
 
Ganesh
00:21 / 01.10.06
We have a rather splendid pink Union Flag, purchased at this year's London Gay Pride - the blue of the saltire replaced with icing pink.
 
  
Add Your Reply