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The life changing power of music

  
 
40%
20:59 / 16.07.05
Hello, I’ve not posted in the temple before, so please excuse me just launching in.

I’ve been writing music for the past year or so, in fact that’s pretty much all I’ve been doing, and I felt compelled to do it. Having written a certain block of music that I felt I needed to write, I feel like I’ve turned a corner in my life.

As long as I can remember, I’ve struggled with destructive emotions. Mainly because I felt like I wasn’t in control of myself. I was heavily indoctrinated as a child, and to be fair, it seemed to go under my skin more than it might have done with many others. But I’ve always felt like there was this cancer eating away at my soul, something wrong that I couldn’t define.

And now I don’t feel like that anymore. I’m not scared. I know that I’m supposed to be here and I feel that I have the power to decide what my life will become. I am no longer scared of the so-called authority of religion, but I feel that the consequences of whatever I decide are mine to deal with, so I’m the one who should get to choose.

And all of this just through writing music. I went to church for years searching for the kind of power and freedom that I have found through writing music, and never found it. And the changes I have been through in my own journey feel as deep and powerful as anything that was ever hinted at in church. I feel like I have uncovered the real treasure chest.

So I'm wondering where exactly the 'power' of my music comes from, and why it is that making music is not generally viewed as being a spiritual path or practice like a religion, but as entertainment, by many people. And what experiences people may have of music as a spiritual rather than just a social phenomenon.
 
 
40%
06:51 / 17.07.05
To clarify, when I talk about writing music, I'm not talking about picking up a guitar and thinking okay C, then G, I'm talking about quite a ritualised thing where I would be focused on a particular emotion or experience, one which I couldn't entirely articulate, and I would just pick up and play, whatever and for however long I felt the need to. And the results have turned out to be highly coherent.

So the reason I'm putting this in the Temple is that I feel that what I've been doing definitely has power of the sort that I would consider spiritual (as far as my understanding of spiritual goes, and as far as I actually believe in the idea), and I want some help in thinking about what spiritual tradition or philosophy my practices might be connected with, even though they just seemed to come naturally to me. Obviously it's largely learned from listening to rock music throughout my life, which always made an interesting tension with church life, and I'm aware that rock music has its roots in African drumming.

I've read one Christian website which says that rock music should not be used in church because it is derived from the drumming used in voodoo, "the most evil music there is". (Not that I see this as credible, but it's a point of view). I've also been told that some of what I've been doing IS shamanism (i.e. listening to music in a loop whilst walking around town, although this is a slightly different aspect).

So, what exactly have I bought into? I know I like it, but I want to figure out where this fits in the scheme of things.

[I apologise for my ignorance about the use of music in spiritual contexts generally, hopefully people can point out some things that I need to be aware of, or maybe some threads I should read]

And sorry to go on at such length.
 
 
Anthony
17:01 / 18.07.05
i fucking hate the church
 
 
Anthony
17:02 / 18.07.05
music is truth, or should be. the only remnant of authenticity in a world full of shit
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:56 / 18.07.05
What about when music is not 'truth', or 'authenticity', but is still good? What about storytelling? What about metaphor? What about "fake it 'til you make it"? What about Johnny Rotten claiming to be the Antichrist?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:58 / 18.07.05
I actually think that a huge number of people do experience music in a spiritual way - although they might not choose to use or even possess the vocabulary to talk about it in such terms.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:05 / 18.07.05
About "Rock comes from Voodoo"- very roughly, much of rock comes from blues, which comes from black American folk music, much of which came with slaves from Africa where it was part of religious ceremonies, the same ones that some of Voodoun is based on. Well, it's nowhere near as simple as that, but you get the picture.

How about Bowie and the whole "Glam" thing? Breaking down gender barriers? Becoming a woman from a man and thus knowing what it is to be one with the higher form?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:12 / 18.07.05
Well, you can't do any of that interesting stuff if you're too bogged down in 'authenticity'...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:54 / 19.07.05
I've read one Christian website which says that rock music should not be used in church because it is derived from the drumming used in voodoo, "the most evil music there is". (Not that I see this as credible, but it's a point of view).

It's a point of view in the same way that "Hitler had some good ideas" is a point of view. What about the many churches where Vodou drumming is used? Vodou, in many ways, being a syncretic form of Catholicism.

What you are doing only needs to be situated in opposition to your religious beliefs and practices if you are close minded enough to exclude your own genuinely spiritual experiences from your formal sense of what a spiritual life should be.

You don't need to buy into any belief system or spiritual school to give context to the spiritual processes inherent in making music - or any form of art for that matter. What does it mean to you? How do you feel about it? What are you expressing? Composers have always used music to express their relationship with the Divine. It's the same tradition that links JS Bach with African drummers, Sufi Qawwali music with Sufjan Stevens, Baptist hymns with Wu Tang. Music carries and expresses God, as does art, cookery, kung fu, love and dancing. There's nothing to separate God from these things, apart from the Sword, with which things are divided "for Love's sake, for the chance of union".
 
 
Anthony
15:40 / 19.07.05
i'm all for johnny rotten being the antichrist.

i guess i have a different working definition of authenticity. i see music, the music i make for example, as a space to communicate things that society likes to repress. but not exclusively so.
 
 
Anthony
15:42 / 19.07.05
and bowie is one of my favourite artists. actually, Low has just finished on my CD player.

shall i say, emotional or intellectual integrity as opposed to consensus reality. a space then, for the revolutionary.
 
 
40%
17:32 / 20.07.05
Gypsy – that would seem to me to be a sane point of view. In fact, soon after writing this thread, I found myself questioning whether all of my terms of reference were in fact meaningless. I saw ‘religion’ and ‘shamanism’ and all these other terms as nothing but terms, and I shouldn’t allow those sort of categories to stop me responding to whatever I experience openly and honestly, and calling things as I see them.

Perhaps my tendency to emphasise these kinds of categories is because I grew up always asking what the source of something was i.e. what force or personality was behind it. Either it’s from God or it’s from the devil. If there’s no particular entity or entities driving what I’ve been doing, then it is all a question of traditions and practices. It just seems a bit heretical to claim that it’s all just come from me somehow. How do other people think about their creativity in this respect? Do you credit God or any other force for inspiring the creative things you’re able to do?

I think the whole question of whether certain spiritual practices or philosophies inevitably lead you to invoke a particular spirit is the one that’s crucial to me. My religious experience has led me to think of things in this way, and that is the thing that most gets in the way of me experiencing things as I naturally feel inclined to. I find Gypsy’s description of all elements of life being a part of God both appealing and intuitively correct, but there is a conditioned part of me that is worried that I may end up invoking some evil spirit unintentionally, that I will be deceived with positive feelings and end up being enslaved or harmed in some way. Hence why I used the term “bought into”.

Has anyone else had similar issues?


i fucking hate the church

I can’t entirely blame you, although there are probably better uses of your energy.

I actually think that a huge number of people do experience music in a spiritual way - although they might not choose to use or even possess the vocabulary to talk about it in such terms.

I think you’re right. Question being then, why do people not possess the vocabulary to talk about it in such terms? And are they missing out as a result?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:29 / 20.07.05
Well, you can't do any of that interesting stuff if you're too bogged down in 'authenticity'...

Exactly. I wasn't positing Bowie's gender fun in opposition to you.

There's a particularly unpleasant meme where the white colonist shouts through a megaphone and the natives assume he is a god (the technology allows amplification of the voice which gives the speaker a higher- if not authentic- social role).

Are we though not under the exact same effect when we listen to rock music? Aren't all the musicians we love somehow attaining "Superhuman" or "Godform" or "Starman" status?

Becoming something more than the "average" human? Louder guitars, louder voice, louder clothes- perhaps in some cases these amplifications are more important in the buzz (spiritual or otherwise) that we get from them than the actual music.

This would seem to explain fairly well why (large parts of) the christian church doesn't like rock 'n' roll.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:08 / 21.07.05
But also explains why as an institution they have embraced it and also other forms of music, for example system of a down, some very christian lyrics in some of there music, i believe the lead singer is eastern orthodox, it appears to me at least from what i can see christianity is in all forms of modern media and genres, it being by far and wide the biggest faith movement in the western hemisphere, i dont think all christians are against modern musical formats, those with more progressive view points use these forms as vehicles for there faith, just as many muslims do within hip hop and thelemites within metal,industrial etc, there all doing the same thing using music in this case as a vehicle for faith or in some cases an owned target audience. In most cases say big productions like film a mixture of influences becomes apparent with common themes.

Divine love for example seems to be common to all faith movements, christains,thelemites and muslims could all sing very similar sentiments in differing contexts, as could anybody who is in love with another.

the megaphone comment seems very much inline with peoples reactions to music made by machines as opposed to music made by humans, that seemed popular back in the 80s when rave became popular, i used to hear it alot. machines making music was somehow alien more authoritarian because machines were the machines of the great machine the state.

i think it really does depend on whose wielding the machines. and there really is an off switch and if it ever gets removed invest in an insulated axe.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:01 / 21.07.05
Surely rave music, while being a Machine and commanding you to dance, was doing so to spite the State Machine? Like a battle between two gods.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:22 / 21.07.05
All music is made by machines.
 
 
40%
06:44 / 22.07.05
As for attempts to combine Christianity and rock music, I’ve never been convinced as to their ‘authenticity’. To me religion and rock music are two opposing things. If you embrace a religion, you agree to submit to its laws and teachings, and to reject or repent of whatever contradicts them. Rock music is the antithesis of submission, it is a way of asserting your own view of the world, and to hell with everything else. This is why it’s given me such a sense of power and freedom, because the music I make describes things as I see them, not as anyone has told me they are/should be.

I’m also very suspicious of the ‘use’ of rock music by the church, because it is often tied up with an agenda to reach the youth by speaking in a language they can understand. I’ve experienced churches where people try to present Christianity as something which can happily mesh with people’s existing cultural norms, whatever they may be, and I don’t respect that. It also must be quite confusing to young people, being told they can radically change their lives without actually changing.

I used to go to a church youth group where rock music was used as worship, and much as I tried to use it to focus on God, it only made me focus on girls. But that might just be me. At any rate, I see great validity in both Christianity and rock music, both very important things to many people. But I can’t see how they can mix without them both being compromised.



All music is made by machines.

Could you please offer something to support that contention, as I can’t see any truth in it whatsoever.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:41 / 22.07.05
An instrument is a tool for making music. The human voicebox is an organic machine. What I'm trying to get at here is that there is no cut-off point in advancement of technology at which the nature of the process of making music changes and becomes less human, less real. That's a Luddite myth. All music is made by machines, and all music (except birdsong, etc) is made by human beings.
 
 
illmatic
07:48 / 22.07.05
Indeedy. And consider how most of us consume music, through stereo systems, ipods, the net. Very few of us have a fat guy with a beard and a passion for real ale in our flats, serenading us on an acoustic guitar. Does this reproduction of music through machines take away from it's ability to move us? Its authenticity? I don't think so.
 
 
illmatic
08:07 / 22.07.05
That's not meant to be snarky btw, interesting thread...

time to go write that post on Vitalic...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:08 / 22.07.05
To me religion and rock music are two opposing things

You're wrong. You're also conflating the word "religion", not just with Christianity, but with the very specific subset of Christianity that you have had exposure to.

For instance, you can't overlook the huge influence of gospel on contemporary "rock music". Soul music is a direct descendent of gospel, therefore any music that is in any sense influenced by soul is spiritual music. The blues may have earned the name "the devil's music", but it is absolutely steeped in religion. Listen to Blind Willie Johnson. Listen to any of the early pre-WW2 stuff. Even the various references to the Devil in blues music, like Robert Johnson's recordings, often function as parables or warnings given in a Christian context. To think of the blues, and the later musical forms it gave birth to, as somehow "un-spiritual" or "in opposition to religion" is just as pernicious, ignorant and racist today as it was in the 1920s.

This is before we even get into the whole thing of African religious drum patterns influencing everything from the rhythms of jazz, through soul, to latin disco, reggae, dancehall, electronica, grime and goodness knows what else. Is this somehow not religious music? Does a specific form of Christianity hold a monopoly on what religious music can or cannot be, or how communion the divine may or may not be expressed through sound? Your argument seems to presuppose that it does.

Religion is all about communion with God, and one of the oldest and most potent ways that the human species has sought to attain that communion is through cutting a rug to drum patterns that move your spirit. If you think you're religious but you don't get that, then God help you.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:19 / 22.07.05
Gypsy, hivemind! I’ve been drafting something and have written: "You seem to be conflating religion in general with a particular form of Christianity that is familiar to you."

As in the 'terrorism & religion' discussion, I think it’s important to get it clear that you can approach any belief system, ideology, identity or aesthetic code as something which has laws you submit to and anathema you reject. I don't think we lack examples of how subcultures that revolve around music can behave in this manner.

More later...
 
 
illmatic
09:41 / 22.07.05
To me religion and rock music are two opposing things

Obvious point, but like most oppositions, surely they need each other to reinforce their identities - "rock" -whichever particular artists you're talking abou - wouldn't be as powerful to you, without it's oppositional stance in relation to religion. So it kind of relies on Christianity in a way, the same way fundamentialists rely on satantic heavy metal to keep themselves scared and angry, the same goth kids need their parents to be freaked out when they come home in a dog collar with eyeliner on...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:08 / 22.07.05
Well, rock music, itself a fairly narrow subsection of popular music, is being as narrowly and erroneously defined as religion here. For instance, it’s not always true that rock music is “the antithesis of submission, it is a way of asserting your own view of the world, and to hell with everything else”. Not true in two senses: one, there is rock music that actively/consciously embraces forms of submission – probably not the kind of submission Spanky is talking about here though! Two, because rock music often encourages a sense of individualism, non-conformism and rebellion -“a sense of power and freedom” - that is… well, I don’t want to say that it’s not real. But it can certainly be just as much buying into someone else’s ideas as Christianity can, while at the same time encouraging people to think they’re somehow breaking away from the crowd, man, even as they buy into this. There's only one way of life, and that's your own, your own, your own, as the good old Levellers had it? Exactly. The Levellers.

It’s perhaps worth noting in Spanky’s defence that he’s at least partly talking about the music he makes, rather than the music he listens to or indeed music in general. I think several of the above points still apply, and I would question to what extent anyone can ever really hope to escape “things… as anyone has told me they are/should be” even when we’re engaged in a creative process, but I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

Then again, this:

It also must be quite confusing to young people, being told they can radically change their lives without actually changing.

…is a far more accurate description of what various forms of music-based culture tell young people than what the type of Christianity you’re describing does!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:15 / 22.07.05
Question being then, why do people not possess the vocabulary to talk about it in such terms?

Careful, I said some of them do have it but choose not to use it. Well, because we live in a society that sees itself as secular, even if it isn't. Because religion has a very bad, arguably not entirely undeserved, reputation in certain circles. Because education doesn't tend to include much in the way of a spiritual dimension. And because if you talk about music being a spiritual experience in overlty religious terms, it might be quite alienating. There might be other frames of reference for communicating some of the same ideas, which would get your point (the life changing power of music) across just as well or even better. For example, Kurt Vonnegut said "Music for me is proof of the existence of God." Now, I like to think that I know what he meant by that. But it's not necessarily what he was saying literally, and someone with a more immediately strong negative reaction to a phrase like 'proof of the existence of God' might find that statement very alienating and difficult to understand.

And are they missing out as a result?

They're probably missing out in some ways but gaining in others, via whichever vocabulary it is they do use to describe their experience of music. No vocabulary could ever hope to describe it fully, after all, so all vocabularies have their limitations.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:09 / 22.07.05
Dreaming in music about music is one way to express music to yourself and who ever else shares your dreams, helps if your asleep and a student of music that absorbs nothing but music and all your dreams are becoming sound, in both ways hopefully.

music as a language is defined by time wether live or recorded, also defined by the soundscape the music is playing in and the many uncountable varibles that go into making your or my state of consciousness at the time.

music cuts the bodies rhythum layers new timing over the heart beat feet tap blood flow breathe, the ears eating sounds . sound paints the internal like thought the shape of thoughts that arent words dancing in awareness creating mind flow rhythum, sound is colour, sound is mind scape.

the guy that hits the right note playing the same note over and over again, mantra.

feedback the echoes of yesterday personality, bouncing off todays new tune, that trys to hum the old song for consistency. the new tune still plays waiting for the listener to listen.

theres an idea from a role playing game i always liked, each soul is a note in a chord in a chorus of souls singing, that collectively are god/dao whatever, some days minor somedays major, just so long as you keep singing, til gabriel blows his trumpet.
 
 
40%
18:33 / 22.07.05
To think of the blues, and the later musical forms it gave birth to, as somehow "un-spiritual" or "in opposition to religion"

I never said I thought of these forms of music as un-spiritual, in fact I said the exact opposite above:

I feel that what I've been doing definitely has power of the sort that I would consider spiritual (as far as my understanding of spiritual goes, and as far as I actually believe in the idea)

As someone involved in creating one of “the latter musical forms [the blues] gave birth to”, I am hardly going to view it as in any way inferior to other forms of music. And telling me that such a view would be ignorant and racist is preaching to the converted. When I say that I see religion and rock music as two opposing things, I’m broadly painting rock music as the good guy and religion as the bad guy. Accuse me of being ignorant about religion if anything, because I have no doubt that I am.

Religion is all about communion with God, and one of the oldest and most potent ways that the human species has sought to attain that communion is through cutting a rug to drum patterns that move your spirit. If you think you're religious but you don't get that, then God help you.

Firstly, I wish everybody shared your view that “religion is all about communion with God”. Unfortunately for many people religion seems to be about dos and donts, about the places you go and who you go with, about what you put into your mouth or what you do with your genitals. And believe it or not, there are people who don’t feel that the direct, visceral experience of life is what connects us with God, but that we are connected to God by professing certain beliefs. And they might not care what you say moves your spirit, if you don’t profess those beliefs. And I’m sure you’re well aware of this.

Secondly, where did you get the idea that “I think I’m religious”? Yes, I said that I’d spent years going to church. I also said that I’d spent the last year doing practically nothing but making rock music, and that I view the two as being opposed to each other. I’m not sure if I believe in God, I’m not sure if I believe that I have a spirit, and I certainly don’t see myself as religious.

The point is that if I believe in anything, I believe in the power of the process that I’ve been engaging in by making my music, because it’s achieved results for me that nothing else did. And I want to understand the nature of that power, be it spiritual or natural or a combination of the two.







Two, because rock music often encourages a sense of individualism, non-conformism and rebellion -“a sense of power and freedom” - that is…

And again I’m having words put into my mouth. You’re assuming that when I talk about experiencing power and freedom, I am talking about individualism, non-conformism and rebellion. I shouldn’t even have to explain why this is not the case, as there was nothing I said that should have suggested that, it’s you putting two and two together and making five.

But it can certainly be just as much buying into someone else’s ideas as Christianity can

No doubt. I don’t believe that living in an ideological vacuum is synonymous with power and freedom. You can’t help but buy into other people’s ideas to some extent, but there’s a difference between choosing to and feeling you don’t have a choice.

Careful, I said some of them do have it but choose not to use it.

My apologies, I was sloppy there. And I think your answer to my question is a very good one. I could continue on asking “why?”, “why?” all day about the reasons you’ve given, but maybe it’s just the way things have turned out.


Gypsy I’m interested in your statement that ”therefore any music that is in any sense influenced by soul is spiritual music.” because it seems to employ the same logic that this Christian website I mentioned before did. That is that if the music of one time and place influences music of later times and different places, the same purpose or intention must be carried with it. As someone who makes music which is influenced by soul (according to your account which is more knowledgeable than I could have given), could I therefore claim that my music is spiritual because of the other styles of music that have influenced it, regardless of my own personal intentions? Because that would be nice.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
04:36 / 23.07.05
And again I’m having words put into my mouth.

No, I was making an observation about popular music, inspired by a phrase you used. There's a difference - this isn't an 'argument' per se, is it?
 
 
Seth
09:16 / 23.07.05
Unfortunately for many people religion seems to be about dos and donts, about the places you go and who you go with, about what you put into your mouth or what you do with your genitals. And believe it or not, there are people who don’t feel that the direct, visceral experience of life is what connects us with God, but that we are connected to God by professing certain beliefs. And they might not care what you say moves your spirit, if you don’t profess those beliefs.

Is this your experience of religion?
 
 
40%
12:00 / 23.07.05
My experience of religion? Well it’s not been good overall, for a number of reasons, and I think it’s right that I should distinguish my particular experience of religion from religion in general.

Firstly, my experience of religion did not ring true to the saying of Jesus that he stands at the door and knocks, and waits for people to open the door, IF they should open it. I always experienced religion as a demand, as something you did not have the right to say no to. Also, I picked up the message that I would simply be unable to function outside of the boundaries that had been set for me, and seeing many people who were able to function perfectly well outside those boundaries still didn’t stop me believing that I was different, that I was made to live solely within them.

Hence religion was something that fed into me a feeling that I had no choice, and that even if I did have a choice, I would be incapable of exercising it properly.

However, I also found that religion tried to offer me solutions to these kinds of problems. I felt depressed because I felt powerless, over myself and in the world around me, and I was told that a touch of the Holy Spirit could heal me of that. Well either I wasn’t touched by the Holy Spirit, or I was but it didn’t work. [Not that being touched by the Holy Spirit should be simply a means of solving ones problems to begin with]

I was told that whatever problems I had could be solved by taking authority over them in the name of Jesus. I woud see high powered preachers and healers who would claim that Jesus could heal anything, including depression. I also went for prayer for healing of back problems and was told that perhaps God had other plans for me rather than healing me right now. Fair enough, but why did they hype it up so much, why did they say that you could use the name of Jesus as a catch-all solution to any problem. Not the case.

Also, I have been in churches where there have been prophecies of revival, or that God would bring increased numbers of people into the church to be saved. In other words, we should just sit tight, keep doing what we were doing, and God would bring the world to us. Again, didn’t happen. In fact I’ve found it to be a big theme in the kind of religion I’ve experienced. Do nothing, trust God, and it’ll all work out. If you’re fucked up, stay fucked up rather than trying to fix yourself, because God will heal you when he’s good and ready. But it just never happens that way.

So that’s where I’m coming from when I said above “I went to church for years searching for the kind of power and freedom that I have found through writing music, and never found it.”



As for my paragraph which Seth responded to:

Unfortunately for many people religion seems to be about dos and donts, about the places you go and who you go with, about what you put into your mouth or what you do with your genitals. And believe it or not, there are people who don’t feel that the direct, visceral experience of life is what connects us with God, but that we are connected to God by professing certain beliefs. And they might not care what you say moves your spirit, if you don’t profess those beliefs.

I wouldn’t say this is entirely representative of my experience of religion, but elements of it definitely are. Particularly the last sentence. What I wrote here was more an attempt to defend myself against the suggestion that I must be missing the point of ‘religion’ to think that it’s about anything more than simply communing with the divine. Because when I think of religion, I don't just think of 'an experience of the divine', I think of the various methods of connecting with the divine which people prescribe as "the correct one", and I've found that 'religion' is more about finding "the correct way" than about connecting with the divine in whatever way feels appropriate to you.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:40 / 23.07.05
the last sentence of that paragraph reads true of the 2 years i spent doing kung fu, i watched senoir christian students turn on there kung fu teacher as he became hindu. it didnt matter with my own searchings what i was finding that inspired me, the sense was that i conformed to a set of behaviours to be there and practice with them.

if i wore a mala it was frowned upon, even a t shirt with a picture of an indian war elephant was questioned and ridiculed. and when i started to try to explain aghori behaviour as spiritual, i may as well of been a demon.
The impression i got was an intolerant bunch of people that show mercy and compassion only to those that agree with them and fuck everybody else.

the above also showed through in several training sessions without an instructor where i walked away severly bruised and bleeding at some points. i used to be anti christian because i considered myself a pagan, but after what i experienced in the church i practiced kung fu in, i dont consider myself anti christian, i am more against those that use faith as a social status game, there are many from many faiths. as an excuse to look down and feel holier than thou, i encountered alot of that, not to mention the racism and sexism exhibited. also the totally unchristian behaviours that tend to characterise the christians i was with did less than inspire me about christianity.

I think if this church was a microcosm of churches in general, and i hope not, then the church is full of devils, and few who really do seem to get what christianity is about, but they are very few and far between.

It has left this distinction in my head, old testament christians and new testament christians. and there are vast differences.

My experience taught me this, you were right to investigate but dont bother again, and i wont be.
 
 
Unconditional Love
23:05 / 23.07.05
Having come back to that and reviewed it, i think some of the feelings are probably what i needed to express, but in retrospect its a little unfair account of proceedings, and some of the hostility was perhaps warranted as i can be a trouble making, know it all, wind you up and push all the right buttons til you explode and then apologise kind of person, but i am guessing i wasnt like that all the time, some of the time perhaps.
 
 
macrophage
00:20 / 24.07.05
Music means lifestylism which means subculturalism. Lifestylism overrules overall. Music can become very subversive. Don't know about this church bollocks if you read Jack T Chick's tome on satanism and rock you will love it. Music acts as a good agent for clearing the mind and can become relaxing or just very good enough to make you dance and runs from Beta to Alpha in its brainwaves and Beyond in other ramifications. Dancing can release the Charcter Armour to no end. I'd rather have hard noise as opposed to Eastern Style influenced Yoghurt Weaving Muzik if I want to relax. Pop makes me baulk though Rachael Stevens as a Petslave Girl in chains licking up the cream that's went mouldy would make me laugh!!! I make music but I don't think a lot of people would have alot of time for it. Never know though - music to kill grannies to while pissing all over their faces!!! Oops a bit of a Negative Install there!!! :-)
 
 
Bruno
13:12 / 27.07.05
Flyboy said All music is made by machines...The human voicebox is an organic machine.

An interesting perspective. But machine usually implies conscious construction. "Using reasoning/language skills and motor skills to alter matter towards some specific purpose", something like that? The voice is probably the only instrument that is not a machine in this sense.

and he also said What I'm trying to get at here is that there is no cut-off point in advancement of technology at which the nature of the process of making music changes and becomes less human, less real.

The true test of this can probably only exist on an empirical level - that is, the qualitative difference for the instrument-player herself.
 
 
40%
18:17 / 28.07.05
Clearly this thread’s gone somewhat astray, mainly because I wasn’t really clear where I was trying to take it. Nevertheless, I’ve appreciated the responses. A lot of this is just stuff I need to reason through properly, and that’s going to take time. But starting a thread can help me, if not to get things clear in my mind, to at least see where I am confused and where my views seem wrong or contradictory from other people’s perspectives.

On the whole rock having spiritual roots point, I apologise to Gypsy if I came across as trivialising the point he was making. I was trying, in a fairly cack-handed way, to provoke further examination of that point. Maybe it’s a point that should be self-evident, and if so, then hopefully I will come to understand it. Maybe I should just listen to some gospel music (in fact there’s a lot of music I should probably listen to).
 
  
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