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Talk to the Cynic.

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17:35 / 14.07.05

To reply to the first post Things of a magical nature. I think all the things I classify as magical could be classed as coincidence or subjective experience (akin to religious experience).

The distinction is a judgment call, when does coincidence become cause? For example if I 'cast a spell' for money luck and then find a fiver, that could be coincidence- what if it happens three times? Ten? When does it become magical? What would convincing evidence of magic *look like* for you?

My point is that it's 'magic' when you think 'Wow! That's amazing!' and it seems more likely to you than chance.

17:39 / 14.07.05

Also personally I think sigils are rubbish, they've not worked for me once- bag of wank.

I think the most convincing evidence of magic in the world is the existence of sane intelligent educated people who believe in magic.

Unconditional Love

18:05 / 14.07.05

after my other questions,one more, what do you make of near death experiences from a scientific view point? ive had alife changing nde id be curious to hear what the science is on it and then id reveal to you how it changed me.

Charlie's Horse

00:19 / 15.07.05

I don't know about those sane intelligent educated people being good proof of anything, Quantum - I've known some level-headed, bright, educated people who believe absolutely in the Word and Law of El-Ron Hubbard. I'd know. I dated them.

Besides, who you callin sane? Shit.

Evil: So is it a case of there being no one right way of experimenting? Whatever works for one individual may not work for another?

Basically. Try to find any two of us who do the same thing. You've got people doing sigils, people burning candles, people with Gods and Spirits whispering (or singing, or screaming, or conversing daintily) in their heads and through the world. You've got tea leaves and the I Ching and invocations to the Dukes of Hazard at 70 mph. Visualizations and maps drawn in the cracks on the pavement. Cosmic reptile gods drawn down into roadside tar snakes. Ancient ley lines spraypainted on the sidewalks, following the water main down Broad. Spells woven in blood, ink, or html.

You know. Stuff like that. The underlying bits are the efforts put in, the unexpected blind tumble to what we asked for, and the sense of awe mentioned in previous posts.

I love that question, Quantum - What would convincing evidence of magic *look like* for you? After practicing for a year or so I started to finally think that the special effects laden 'magic' of television and pop culture tends to act as a system of denying actual magic - because we don't levitate objects or shoot lightening out of our asses (or other computer generated effects), because it isn't something garishly supernatural, 'magic' doesn't exist. One hell of a disappearing act.

07:39 / 15.07.05

Wow, lots of replies. Thanks everyone, I'll try and answer the individual posts as quickly as possible. I'm currently at work so can't really deal with more than one at a time. But I promise to try and reply to you all eventually.

That road works for some people, I've always found it a bit mechanical and uninspiring.

That's fair enough. I get the impression, from the txt language, that sigils are not particularly popular on Temple. But coming from my perspective of cynical, yet open minded enough to give it a go, the philosophy behind it sounded as reasonable as anything else I've heard about magic.

Hell, at least I gave it a (ahem) shot. Right?

I do feel I need to clarify something here though. Whilst I do currently believe that we exist in a godless universe, and that magic is not so much a cosmic force than it is a belief system. I do consider myself open-minded enough to accept that I might be wrong.

It would be unscientific to automatically assume magic doesn't exist as a tangible force just because I have no evidence of it.

One other thing to clarify, I do understand that magic is not lightning bolts and pyrotechnics. Please credit me with a little intelligence here. I may enjoy Buffy, but I'm normally lucid enough not to assume that's how it works.

14:18 / 15.07.05

I just wanted to say Gypsy Lantern nailed it in his last post; I particularly thought so in the last 2 paragraphs (about when it doesn't work and when it does work).

And sigils aren't all bad - I rather like them and have fun with them, and have had about a 50% success rate with 'em thus far.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

15:17 / 15.07.05

I get the impression, from the txt language, that sigils are not particularly popular on Temple.

Oh, sigils are treated as a bit of joke by some of us here simply because they tend to be a bit too popular. A basic sigil working is essentially a sound bit of magic, but it has a lot of limitations. There's a sort of sigils-for-everything approach which is very common on the net. I personally dislike this because it doesn't really encourage people to progress further; developing one's magical practice ends up being a matter of finding new ways to charge sigils.

Charlie's Horse

20:57 / 15.07.05

Please credit me with a little intelligence here.

Uh, I do, Evil. That was more me thinking out loud, presenting something I'd thought of a whiles back but hadn't unshelved in a while. It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. Just a lil' social commentary tangent. If I'd directed it at you I would have said so.

11:57 / 18.07.05

No worries, Charlie's Horse. Me being over-defensive.

I'm probably not going to get too much Lithing done this week. Helluva busy again. But I should be able to get back to this thread by Saturday.

Walking in Circles, I definitely want to reply to your question about what I consider being a scientist to be. I'm also happy to talk about the possible non-spiritual causes of a Near Death Experience. However, I respect that it must be an extremely profound experience whatever the cause so feel free to tell me to shut my yap if I go OTT.

Speak to you soon gang.

E.S.

17:54 / 18.07.05

Heres something for you to come back to then- I was thinking about Castaneda, and how he dealt with his initiation into magic. He eventually decided to accept the bizarre Yaqui way of knowledge on it's own terms. His anthropological taxonomy just couldn't encompass his experiences.

Remember when he flew? He quizzed Don Juan for ages about how he flew, was it mental or literal, what if he'd been chained to a rock etc. and just can't understand the answers in terms of his rationalist model of the world.

I think it's a good approach, taking magic on it's own terms, and personally I like to try and work out how the science behind it works, but our current scientific paradigm is too compartmentalised. Bring on the GUTs and ToEs!

12:12 / 20.07.05

if you have a desire, intention, and take action, and get the results you desire, then it's an act of Magick. You have shaped reality according to your will. Initiating this discussion was an act of Magick.

10:26 / 26.07.05

Anth, that's a very broad definition of magick don't you think? It means scratching one's arse is a magical act...

12:47 / 26.07.05

Maybe someone who couldn't scratch their arse would consider being able to do so pretty magical.

What I'm trying to say is that since i stopped separating the "wooo...magick..." and the "humph...mundane..." parts of my life, and looked at them as being on the same continuum of wonder and universe shaping, everything's worked a hell of a lot better.

And I suppose 'show me evidence of magic' hinges on your definition of 'magic' itself. I'd consider a 90-year old chinese woman, who's been practising tai chi for ever, and is bendier and much harder than me, to be evidence.

05:24 / 28.07.05

Ultimately, I agree with Anth. To quote the Old Crow: Every act is a magickal act.

There's magick and then there are the technologies to understand and perform magick. I think people commonly (and erroneously, IMHO) assume that magick = the technologies (Thelema, GD, Voudoun, Chaos, etc...).

Witnessing a sunset is magick. Invoking RA and descending into the watery sea of Binah towards the great dark night of the soul is a magickal technology used to better grasp the ancient humanity of the sunset.

Magick is just life, dig?

08:04 / 28.07.05

To quote the Old Crow: Every act is a magickal act.
I thought that was every conscious act is a magical act? To be honest scratching one's backside does not need a conscious thought it's a reaction to an itch, in my own opinion therefore it is not a magical act.

09:10 / 28.07.05

Isn't there something in Crowley about this? As I recall the act must be in acordence with the will i.e. not habitual.

09:33 / 28.07.05

Are we really having a discussion about whether scratching your arse is a magical act?

09:56 / 28.07.05

Are we really having a discussion about whether scratching your arse is a magical act?
Not really, I was just using it as a rather bad example of Crowley's idea that an act is magical if it is a conscious act rather than an unconscious act.

10:20 / 28.07.05

Not so much a discussion as an argument. I say scratching one's arse (or indeed someone elses) is not a magical act per se just because it is a conscious act, several others are saying it is because, y'know life is magick innit, the wondrous nature of existence makes everything magical.

Personally I have a narrower definition of magick that involves change according to will etc. but also an acausal connecting principle not plausibly explicable by conventional explanation. If a drop of rain falls that's not magic, if I consciously intend to drink tea and do it, that's not magic, if I allow the loa to ride me well, um, that's magic.

11:50 / 28.07.05

Maybe every consciously willed act is a "Magickal" act but not necessarily a magical one?

12:00 / 28.07.05

Maybe every consciously willed act is a "Magickal" act but not necessarily a magical one?
Interesting point, could lead to an answer of the things I'm thinking about;
if every consciously willed act is a magickal act then why do you have to learn the banishing/invoking pentagrams by heart (so you can do them in your sleep to badly paraphrase Lon Milo DuQuette)surely if you can do them in your sleep they run the fine line of becoming a unconscious act therefore unmagickal?
Or am I thinking a load of crap? I honestly am not sure what to think now.
Help?

12:17 / 28.07.05

I wonder if in the case of the pentagrams it is the difference between unconcious and habitual. If you were able to do the rituals unconciously i.e. without thinking that would be a good thing but if you did them habitualy i.e. every morning or evening without thinking why you were doing them that would be a bad thing.
So perhaps we should be calling it willed and unwilled rather concious and unconcious?

12:26 / 28.07.05

Just to clarify. I meant being able to do the rituals at will but without needing to think about the next step was a good thing.
To perform a banishing when needed even if you are asleep would still be a willed act, even if was the un(semi?)conscious mind willing it.

13:58 / 28.07.05

Considering this is a thread to convince a cynic, I feel the discussion of the special K and the definition of magic could easily go elsewhere. My contention about sane educated magicians is under threat I feel.

Although I notice upon searching there's no thread on the definition of magic, WTF?

15:09 / 28.07.05

My contention about sane educated magicians is under threat I feel.

Not a hundred per cent with you there I'm afraid, debate and theory has definately got a place in magic and the above has given me some food for thought.

Unconditional Love

15:09 / 28.07.05

surely magic is such an instinctual unconscious act, that any conscious awareness just makes it backfire, at least for me, if my magic isnt emotive and of need, the dire urgent kind of need it never tends to work, ie i cant cook without a cooker, so a small cooker turns up free of charge misdelivered to a similar address, thats one example. all this magic is a conscious act, rings of bollocks to me. but then so does all of that lets make magic an atheist materialist paradigm like a science, mind forged manacles let us make for ourselves, i dont think science and magic are opposed perse, but for me one does a good job for somethings and the other a good job for others. shamans dont need quantum physics for healing, but that doesnt stop them checking there email, does magic have to be validated by science? nah not really. Try it from the other angle.

15:52 / 28.07.05

...then why do you have to learn the banishing/invoking pentagrams by heart...?

Well, you don't have to. These are tools to retrain the mind so that we can grok the, uh, magickness of ourselves and our world. Most of us are not innately enlightened and need some direction and training to come to a magickal understanding of life. Most of us act from habit, desire, and fear rather than any real deep understanding of our selves and our place in the continuum.

This is my opinion but I'm growing increasingly weary of the notion that only certain types of illuminating practices are magickal. I'm thinkink anything that brings one closer to themselves and their community and their world is a reliable magickal technology.

And yes, the correct theorem from Magick In Theory & Practice is "Every intentional act is a magickal act". So if you intend to scratch your ass in accordance with your will to alleviate the itch or pick out the dingleberry or whatever, then you have succesfully worked your magick.

05:53 / 31.07.05

Okay. This is bound to be a bit goofy/uncomfortable, but here it goes.

I've been insane at least eight times in my life on three different continents. In that state the borders that separate reality and unreality, yes and no, and you and me fall away. You're left with nothing you can reliably hang your hat on.

ANYWAY

Institutionalization is insidious. Even in the murk of insanity, your will crystallizes on one objective: getting out. You become a bit of a whore, trying to suck up to the powers that be in the nurse's station, trying to convince the apathetic of your renewed/reenergized commitment to sanity. Or reality. Take your pick.

The last time I went insane I couldn't go through sycophantic routine and it was an even more thoroughly wretched experience as a result. (Why are the sane so intolerant of inevitable divergences?) But it was like I was possessed (uh....on top of being utterly bonkers)

Magic. Right.

One day I was out on a day pass with someone and Johnny Cash was mentioned. Insane as I was, I wasn't paying attention much until his name was mentioned. Then I snapped into the conversation thusly: "Isn't he dead yet?"

Very rude/inappropriate. But that's insanity for you.

Anyway, he died the next day.

Another day pass, I was watching a dvd with my sister. The Matrix Reloaded, a movie rife with delusional potential. When the Oracle came on the screen I said "Look. Can't you see? She's tired. She wants to die." The next week I found out that the actress had indeed died.

So that's why I believe in magic. (Although the struggle continues to maintain a strictly non-delusional stance on said belief.)

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