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Be a guest in my astral home

 
  

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electric monk
02:47 / 23.11.05
The exterior of the temple resembles the magician's house that appears in the very first issue of Sandman (in fact, on the very first page).

Okay, I'll see what I can do.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:57 / 23.11.05
With convincing feedback, though, I might well widen my crack. For certain visitors, anyway.

Fnar Fnar!
(sorry, couldn't resist that)

'nesh, that's an interesting distinction you're drawing between scrying & astral temple work, which if nothing else highlights one of the difficulties 'outsiders' (by which I mean non-practitioners/non-believers) have when approaching this whole notion of the astral. Scrying, for example, is not necessarily synonymous with "remote observation" of real-life events, and why would you suppose that visiting a foreign astral temple would be more akin to penetrating someone else's (sleeping) psyche ? Trying to come at these matters and maintaining sharp distinctions between real/non-real, psyche/soma, etc., is not likely to get you too far.

It seems to me that common to both scrying and astral temple work is the ability to create narrative out of a few cues, and to extrapolate a picture from a few cues. And both have a strong social dimension of course, when carried out in the context of a group working.
 
 
Ganesh
06:09 / 23.11.05
Oh, okay.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:37 / 23.11.05
Ganesh
earlier, you wrote:

It seems to me that, at best, it might be akin to saying to someone, "you were in my dream last night" and subsequently creating a mutual narrative in the cold light of non-astral space. If it actually worked, though, it'd be like dreaming ESP or summat.

I was at a talk at Treadwells last night, listening to Dr. Rhodri Hayward (a research fellow at the Wellcome Trust Centre for the History of Medicine), who was talking about the relationship between Victorian Spiritualism and the 'creation' of the concept of the Unconscious Mind. One of his themes, which struck me as interesting in the light of the above, was how Frederick Myers' theory of the Subliminal Self (a precursor to Freud's concept of the Unconscious) was developed specifically to 'explain' Spiritualists' communication with "the other side". Myers was a founding member of the Society for Psychical Research, and in addition to his concept of the subliminal self, it is largely due to Myers that the concepts of ESP & telepathy being subconscious functions of personality arose.
Dr Hayward suggested that Myers' work (and that of other colleagues at the SPR) is useful to look at not only in terms of the early development of psychological theories of the self, but also in that they strove to relocate what was apparently 'supernatural' to the domain of scientific investigation and theory - perhaps an indicator of the tension between the growth of professional psychologists and spiritualist 'amateurs'.

As to your point about "creating a mutual narrative", I would agree that this is a factor in these types of experience (hence my earlier comment). Having been involved in many such 'experiments' I would say that there is a tendency amongst practitioners towards collusion, in supporting shared belief, rather than looking at differences. In one memorable instance, two magical groups (one in London, the other in Germany) arranged to hold a 'joint astral temple working' on a certain date, and report back their mutual experiments. At a meeting of other groups of the overall confedaration of which the two were elements, the London group gave a glowing report of how they had perceived their German colleagues, and the magical acts they had performed together. A few days later, I happened to speak to a member of the German group, whereupon it transpired that they had entirely forgotten the agreement to 'astrally' connect to the UK-based group! Unfortunately I did not get the chance to pass this information along to the UK-based group, as I would have been interested to hear their rationalisations for their experience.
 
 
illmatic
09:45 / 23.11.05
Monk: The individual in question was someone I was in contact with via post and then over the phone. In our second or third phone conversation, he told me he'd skryed me, and described what I looked like. He got right a number of distint things about me (hair, type of glasses). He also got my height completely wrong.

The latter fact ties in loosely with what T the T is saying - I have a feeling that some parts of these experiences are genuine, and do describe a real phenomena, but I also think as they are coming through of what I'd loosely describe as the realm of dream/inspiration/creativty/delusion - Yesod - they can be subject to a lot of distortion. And the more the individuals ego starts to involve them the less likely they are to stay accurate (we see the same increased noise to signal ratio in channeled communcations over time etc.) All instuctions I've ever read on skrying tell the practioner to go with the first image received, no matter how ridiculous to avoid precisely this problem.

Incidentally, the individual involved was completely batshit, and spent most of his time floating in a cloud of dope or booze fumes, when he wasn't on the astral. I think his basic ungroundedness may well have had a lot to do with his skrying ability.
 
 
electric monk
11:27 / 23.11.05
Thanks, Ill. That was very helpful for me and a good measure for what we're trying to accomplish.
 
 
electric monk
11:28 / 23.11.05
PMing you with last night's results, Sypha.
 
 
electric monk
15:46 / 23.11.05
Sypha gave me permission to post the contents of my PM to him this morning:

Used the image you pointed me toward overlayed with a photo of you from your LJ as a visual focus. Your face would fade as I walked up the walk. I visualized that walk about 4-5 times before opening the front door and entering.

Started in the front of the temple at the opposite end of the sidewalk leading to the front door. Quick sunset. Nighttime and cloudless sky. The front lawn is disheveled, like a bad hair day. Thick patches of weeds, and uneven ground. Walk up the path and mount the steps of the porch (I see figures moving in lighted rooms on the second floor). This place is old, creaky, but in solid shape. No fear of plunging thru the porch planks. The double doors are a solid wood, maybe oak, with a raised oval on each. Grab the doorknob and turn. Door swings easily. I walk thru into a large foyer. Large rug, colored red and detailed in blacks, whites, and dull yellows, runs across the room and up the staircase opposite the door. The staircase comes to a landing then branches left and right and turns back again heading in the direction of the wall at my back. The rug also has arms that stretch to the left and right, forming an upside down cross. 100 to 200 feet past the staircase is the far wall. Some kind of massive metallic sculpture hangs on this wall, occassionally spouting steam. There is some kind of clockwork behind the walls. I can hear gears grinding softly. I walk up the staircase and take the left fork.

I briefly met a butler. At least, I think he was a butler. Didn't get a name, but he looked like a cartoony version of Eye-gore in 'Young Frankenstein'. He seemed happy to help me.

I also got the feeling that you (or a part of you) was in the house, huddled in a corner of some dank, unfurnished room and crying softly. I heard no crying, and was not able to find the room.


I'll wait for Sypha's analysis to be posted here before I comment on this any further.
 
 
--
05:21 / 24.11.05
Well, I told you most of my thoughts concerning this matter to you in the PM I sent you, so I'm hesitant to say too much about how closely your initial visit mirrored the house as I see it in my mind in a public setting (I mean, you know what was close and what wasn't because I told you what was accurate and what was not). Maybe it would be best to wait and see if anyone else gives it a try and they can post their experiences.
 
 
--
05:25 / 24.11.05
Oh yeah, I was looking over my initial post and no one has to do the password thing either, it was just a literary device I employed at the time to help one get into the proper mindset. I told monk that there isn't really notions of success here: I'm primarily interested in other people's interpretations of what they encounter. In fact, in my very first post I said that maybe certain creatures inhabiting the place might appear different to a visitor. But the fact is, my imagination isn't advanced enough to visualize every single minute aspect of the place in extreme detail, so even when I go to the place there are usually subtle differences that I probably don't even notice.
 
 
electric monk
16:48 / 25.11.05
Have others contacted you about trying this out? I was under the impression that I was the only one.

While I understand that you don't want to give too many details about your temple, I think it would be helpful from a third party standpoint to be able to see what we're getting right and what we're getting wrong. Outside input is going to be quite helpful here, as neither of us really knows what we're doing.

I told monk that there isn't really notions of success here: I'm primarily interested in other people's interpretations of what they encounter.

I don't accept this. I'm sorry, but I feel that with any type of working there must be some measure of success. How can we judge this experiment otherwise? As I said to you in PMs, Sypha, to my eye the only details that could be said to match here could come from watching the same movies. I'll grant that what I'm getting may be subject to distortion, but I think I'm only logically willing to accept so much distortion until I have to admit, "I failed." Perhaps my criteria for success is unrealistic, but I don't think so.

trouser - I would say that there is a tendency amongst practitioners towards collusion, in supporting shared belief, rather than looking at differences.

Exactly. Exactly the trap I'd like to avoid. Y'ever seen 'Ghost Hunters' on the SciFi channel? They make a point of telling their clients, "We are here to debunk. We will do our best to find rational, non-spiritual answers to your haunting. Anything left after that, we're likely to label supernatural." This builds a level of trust with their clients and certainly makes them more credible to me.

But the fact is, my imagination isn't advanced enough to visualize every single minute aspect of the place in extreme detail, so even when I go to the place there are usually subtle differences that I probably don't even notice.

Okay, I think this may be a stumbling block too. I was under the impression (and perhaps I misread you at some point) that your astral temple a fairly "solid" place for you. Again, my expectations may be too high, but I really thought I was attempting to go to a place that had been built up by you over months and months, and that had a fairly repeatable set of details for you. Scenery and denizens reinforced with expectation and repetition. Is this unrealistic of me? I'm not sure. But I do think that my interpretations of what I saw should have to conform in a general sense to what you see on a consistent basis when you're there.
 
 
--
04:50 / 26.11.05
A few other people have done it. Sorry if I haven't replied to them yet... I appreciate they did so. But I'm in a weird state right now. This experiment is done for the time being as I've lost interest in the subject matter and have other things on my mind (intestinal issues, for example). Thanks to those who participated.
 
 
--
04:53 / 26.11.05
Truth is, I haven't been to my temple in months now, and it wasn't as solid as I thought it was. When I did this thread the subject interested me at the time, but now... boredom. It's like "What's the point?" Intellectual masturbation. I still think it's impossible to gauge "success" and "failure" in magical terms... magic itself can't be defined by earth language. Any attempts to do so trivilize it, I feel. Sorry if I'm not making sense. As I said above, weird times. Talk amongst yourself...
 
 
Char Aina
05:21 / 26.11.05
gosh.
how wacky.
 
 
illmatic
13:17 / 26.11.05
I still think it's impossible to gauge "success" and "failure" in magical terms

No, I think it's quite easy - sometimes. It's hard to admit to failure though...
 
 
electric monk
14:37 / 26.11.05
... magic itself can't be defined by earth language. Any attempts to do so trivilize it, I feel.

Oh, come on.

I guess I'm done here then.
 
 
Ganesh
12:47 / 27.11.05
How might one define something other than by using "earth language"? Venusian?
 
 
electric monk
14:28 / 27.11.05
My six month old defines the quality of his meal by the quantity of his poo. He feels any attempt to use mommy-and-daddy language trivializes it.
 
 
The Falcon
15:18 / 27.11.05
toksy pointed this out to me, and it's a large part of what puts me off doing magic at all. If there's no objective measures, no results whatsoever for your work, then there's no point at all - is there?

You'd just be a wanker talking shit, really. (n.b. not intended as a personal attack, Syph, as you get that from people who know a lot better what they're talking about than I do. You just would.)

Anyway, I tried this as I was drifting off to sleep (even remembered the password) and all I could get was images of Prometheus' crooked house from JLA. Of course, I've no idea what I'm supposed to be doing.
 
 
---
17:13 / 27.11.05
Maybe it'd be better to say that language can only go so far in describing magic, but that's the same for anything, not just this area.

You'd just be a wanker talking shit, really.

Well, yeah I guess you would if all you wanted to do is talk about it. It can be talked about, it can be described, to an extent. It's not the easiest of things to do though.

As for no results, that's just wrong. There are results, you are the results, you feel the results, you live them in your mind and your body if you can do it properly.

Of course there are fucking results! They're very, very hard to get across in any type of comprehensible way though to a person who hasn't practised magic. You have to try it, and if you do it correctly then you'll know, and no amount of words or thoughts will prove anything other than the fact that you know it's real.
 
 
--
22:33 / 27.11.05
Duncan, the password probably didn't work because the experiment is over and thus the password is obselete. Sorry...

Is pointless magic a crime? Must everything have a point? I don't think so... That's like saying a surrealist painting or a Dada sculpture is pointless. Very often we are propelled by impulses or desires that we cannot quite identify or catalogue, or put into a precise form. In such cases, language can only describe it so far and one must resort to a different medium: Sound, color, art, whatever you will, which is still a language but a different language then conventional words (for the record, I think Bertiaux comes the closest when it comes to translating the mysetries into a format we can comprehend).

As for results, I'm a huge supporter of experimenting with magic in which there are no clear directives or goals. "Let's do this and see what happens". Probably a result of my discordian entry-point (I think experimentation is healthy: I'm not a musician but I like to play around with sounds and I may not always know how something will sound unless I try it out first. Very often musical experiments I conducted that had no real purpose ended up with very pleasing results, IMO). Now, yes, there are results in such a case, but it is very hard to classify them as "right" or "wrong", "success" or "failure". I may do something and I may not understand why I'm doing yet I'm doing it anyway and I'm curious to see what will happen. But this is speaking from an experimental standpoint. Success and failure is sometimes easier to gauge when one uses more traditional methods. For example, lets say you do a sigil to get laid or something. Now, if you got laid a few days or a week later or something you could probably label the magic operation a success (either that or it was just dumb luck or a coincidence) but if you don't get laid then you would call it a failure, yeah. I'm in total agreement with you there.

My ramblings a few days ago, which were unfocused, were speaking mostly about the more head-tripping aspects of magical work, which are harder to translate in human form, but certainly some magic acts can very easily be described using conventional methods. I still say not all magic has to have a point though. Very often, life is pointless, totally random, chaos. There's no reason why this shouldn't be reflected in magic either, I would think. I think there's room in magic to embrace both order and chaos, no?
 
 
illmatic
07:39 / 28.11.05
Is pointless magic a crime? Must everything have a point? I don't think so...

Possibily when one proposes an experiment that other people are to be involved in, one should have a "point" or perhaps, an idea of what one is aiming for.

That's like saying a surrealist painting or a Dada sculpture is pointless. Very often we are propelled by impulses or desires that we cannot quite identify or catalogue, or put into a precise form.

No, it isn't actually. No one is criticising artistic activity of any shape of form. Invoking the shades of dada and surrealism here is simply an attempt to avoid any responsibility whatsoever.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:27 / 28.11.05
I think Bertiaux comes the closest when it comes to translating the mysetries into a format we can comprehend

Love it.
 
 
Quantum
14:00 / 28.11.05
Pointless magic is a crime. I AM TEH PUNISHMENT! *whips out Prana-Uzi and starts blasting at the imaginary house Frank Castle stylee*
 
 
--
14:37 / 28.11.05
But... this wasn't a pointless experiment. In fact, in the very first post, I said I was interested in how other people interpreted someone else's astral construct, what the similarities were, and descriptions of any creatures they came across. And that's just what people did. And some descriptions matched what I saw in my head, while others did not. It was an interesting experiment (to me, anyway), but there really wasn't a "goal", other then satisfying my curiosity. I wasn't referring to this particular thread when I mentioned pointless magic, I was talking more about discordianism (oops, I just said a dirty word).
 
 
electric monk
15:15 / 28.11.05
Is pointless magic a crime?

and a little later

But... this wasn't a pointless experiment.

Quit attempting to rewrite your narrative. It's getting on my tit.

in the very first post, I said I was interested in how other people interpreted someone else's astral construct, what the similarities were, and descriptions of any creatures they came across. And that's just what people did. And some descriptions matched what I saw in my head, while others did not.

Then please ask permission from these people to post their experiences. As a participant, I would like to see them as there is a good chance I could learn something from them.

----------------------

Thing is, Sypha, I'm pretty honked off about this whole thing. You publicly asked for the participation of others, got it, and then did nothing with it other than say "Bored now..." and tried to move away from the results as quickly as possible. As someone who's made an honest effort to help you, I feel I've been quite publicly slapped in the face for my efforts.

And what's more? As pissed as I am at you, Sypha, I'm even more pissed at myself for wasting my time with you. I thought, at the very least, this could be a mutually beneficial learning experience for both of us. It certainly has been for me. What made me think you'd actually follow through on your end? I wish I could say. But thanks. Thanks for proving yourself to me. Thanks for showing me what you're made of and how you work. I'll never doubt again.
 
 
Quantum
16:03 / 28.11.05
Monk, you only have one tit?!? Is that a witches nipple or are you in fact a weird half-person typing with one hand? Bizarre summoning accident? Inquiring minds want to know dude...
 
 
electric monk
16:09 / 28.11.05
I've got half a mind to leave you wondering, Quantum.

;-)
 
 
Quantum
17:07 / 28.11.05
I've got half a mind...

Hah! Busted you freakish half-man! Are you a lefty or a righty? Which hemisphere remains, hmm? Bet it's the right one.
 
 
electric monk
17:28 / 28.11.05
*snif*

They called me "the one-eyed monster" at school.


Filthy bitches.


*a tear falls*
 
 
rising and revolving
15:02 / 08.03.06
Cross posting Syphas results.

Rising and Revolving PM:

"From my notes.

"SUTGE written on a veil before me. I seperate the veil and move forwards, it falls apart like the pages of a novel. Many sheafs of paper flying in multiple directions. I approach the gate, a broken path leading towards the front door. Each post besides the gate is capped with a wooden sphere, once painted green now fading. I place my hands upon them, and I grow large. Looking down at the house as it shrinks beneath my feet. I feel the light above me and see how the house is cut off from that light, wreated in shadows at my feet.

I allow myself to shrink again, walk up the pathway and open the door. Tendrils of white smoke drift out from the door, forming into claws that grasp at me. I take a moment to seal and protect myself, and they drift back, smoke again. I walk into the entry hall. Staircases lead in every direction, some at right angles to the floor - somewhat Escher like in their convulutions. I take one that leads deeper into the houses depths. I realise shortly in that I've lost my sense of direction. I approach dungeons - chained to the walls are huge twisted dog like creatures, snarling and roaring. As I see them, I realise that they are harmless. I release the chains from the nearest one, and he becomes smaller, a mere puppy who runs off. I release a couple more, and the same thing happens. The last one does not shrink, he rages off, smashing through walls as he goes.

I sense the heart of the house before I see it. I move towards it, passing through shattered and unshattered walls towards it. It is a great, beating heart as tall as I am, black with tar and filth, wrapped about a rusted column that stretches floor to ceiling. I make some changes, burning the blackness away from the heart. Probably overstepping my bounds, given I'm in someone else house. It changes and twists, falling into a more cartoon like heart before shattering into a glorious haze of crystal fragments that flow around the room, like a mirror ball on crack.

I leave."

Er, sorry about changing stuff. I really should have just looked, rather than touching - seems like bad ettiquette.

Mind you, I'd be interested to know if you perceive any changes...

R&R"

Monk's PM:

"Happy Belated JFK-Blown-Away Day, BTW.

Used the image you pointed me toward overlayed with a photo of you from your LJ as a visual focus. Your face would fade as I walked up the walk. I visualized that walk about 4-5 times before opening the front door and entering.

Started in the front of the temple at the opposite end of the sidewalk leading to the front door. Quick sunset. Nighttime and cloudless sky. The front lawn is disheveled, like a bad hair day. Thick patches of weeds, and uneven ground. Walk up the path and mount the steps of the porch (I see figures moving in lighted rooms on the second floor). This place is old, creaky, but in solid shape. No fear of plunging thru the porch planks. The double doors are a solid wood, maybe oak, with a raised oval on each. Grab the doorknob and turn. Door swings easily. I walk thru into a large foyer. Large rug, colored red and detailed in blacks, whites, and dull yellows, runs across the room and up the staircase opposite the door. The staircase comes to a landing then branches left and right and turns back again heading in the direction of the wall at my back. The rug also has arms that stretch to the left and right, forming an upside down cross. 100 to 200 feet past the staircase is the far wall. Some kind of massive metallic sculpture hangs on this wall, occassionally spouting steam. There is some kind of clockwork behind the walls. I can hear gears grinding softly. I walk up the staircase and take the left fork.

I briefly met a butler. At least, I think he was a butler. Didn't get a name, but he looked like a cartoony version of Eye-gore in 'Young Frankenstein'. He seemed happy to help me.

I also got the feeling that you (or a part of you) was in the house, huddled in a corner of some dank, unfurnished room and crying softly. I heard no crying, and was not able to find the room.

Curious to see how I did. Would like to see this posted in-thread, and you can point out where I went right and where I went wrong. I'm keeping a copy of this PM so I can check that this message is posted as-is."

RE:

'Kay, I'll copy and paste my PM to you into the thread. You can respond publicly there.

I can't say I count this as a success. While there are a few points of similarity, I'm tempted to chalk those up to us watching the same movies or something. I'd caution you, also, to not strain to see proof of success. Saying "the house may have created X" and such seems to be a strain, at least to me. Granted, I'm a n00b at this astral stuff, but I find a healthy bit of skepticism goes a long way. Let's take it back to the thread and see where there's room for improvement.

No rug, huh? I was pretty damn sure about the rug.

> Sure, you can post it in the thread if you want. Here's my impressions of what you said:
>
> The lawn is disheveled? Normally it isn't that bad but I haven't been there in awhile to look things over so maybe the place needs some maintenance. There are wood double doors that lead into a large foyer, and there is a staircase that leads to the second floor (for the record, there are 3 floors, but the third floor is pretty small: I imagine it to fill in the space of that weird square structure above the front door of the magician's house in Sandman. I'm not really sure if there's a basement, however... Most likely). However, I usually imagine the stairs to look like this: One set of stairs on the left and one on the right that both curve upwards (like an upside down "U") to a landing that leads to the second floor main hall (under the landing, directly across from the front entrance is a door that leads to the first floor main hall). I will tell you that when you open that door that steps into the main hall there is another double-door directly in front of you that opens up onto the grounds behind the estate. Also, I'm not aware of there being any sculptures of sorts in the foyer, but the place has a tendency to change around sometimes so you never know. Maybe one of the inhabitants was feeling artistic. Also, I've never encountered a butler before (never really saw a need for one as I don't get much visitors) but maybe the house decided to create one when someone else entered it. There are other inhabitants and truth be told, there are probably things living in that place I don't even know about. There are lots of side-rooms I haven't explored yet, for example.
>
> I hope this has been of some help to you. If you return, please tell me any further impressions you get of the place. Oh yeah, thanks for taking part in the experiment too.
>
> Cheers,
>
> James/Sypha
 
 
rising and revolving
17:13 / 08.03.06
So, I'd classify this as a miss as far as testibility goes.

The thing I do find interesting is the decrepit nature of the buildings both Monk and I investigated - and the fact that I'd say there's more similarity (which is not much) between Monk and I than between either of us and Sypha.

I suspect decrepit may be more largely a result of our perceptions of Sypha than any objective knowledge gained.

Now, I know Monk got pissed at Sypha earlier in this thread for the way he off-handedly tossed the whole thing out the window. Which I could sympathise with, but I really didn't get too fussed.

On the other hand, I'm pissed off at the fact that he's pretty much lied throughout the thread in order to misrepresent the quantity of feedback he received. How pointless. How useless. What a waste of everyones time.

A few other people have done it. Sorry if I haven't replied to them yet... I appreciate they did so.

A few. Hah. This would be like "A few for all and all for a few," then. Or "A few nights in Bangkok," or "Few for the money, two for the show,"

I'll stop now. Or in a few sentences, anyways.

After all, there can be only a few!

No, I'm done.
 
 
electric monk
22:08 / 08.03.06
The thing I do find interesting is the decrepit nature of the buildings both Monk and I investigated - and the fact that I'd say there's more similarity (which is not much) between Monk and I than between either of us and Sypha.

I suspect decrepit may be more largely a result of our perceptions of Sypha than any objective knowledge gained.


I thought that as well. I was also thinking that your filth-covered-heart find and my sense of Sypha crying somewhere in the building were interesting in light of each other. What must we think of this guy?

Now, I know Monk got pissed at Sypha earlier in this thread for the way he off-handedly tossed the whole thing out the window. Which I could sympathise with, but I really didn't get too fussed.

On the other hand, I'm pissed off at the fact that he's pretty much lied throughout the thread in order to misrepresent the quantity of feedback he received. How pointless. How useless. What a waste of everyones time.


That's pretty much what pissed me off at the time. There was a definite split between how S represented to me via PM and how he represented to the board in this thread. I didn't even believe he'd enlisted anyone else. Gotta say, R&R, it's really to your credit that you kept mum and stayed level-headed. I give you props.

----------

If anyone ever decides to do anything like this again, I'd strongly suggest a PM to an uninvolved third party containing a detailed description of the astral temple to be visited. Some neutral party needs to hold the answers to the test, or it's too goddamn easy to cheat. Wish I'd thought of it before.
 
 
grant
02:29 / 09.03.06
Volunteering for neutrality.
 
  

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