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Musical references in books

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23:08 / 08.07.05

I've read a lot of books, and one thing I've always noticed is that very rarely do many books mention songs in the text itself. Sometimes you might get a lyric quoted before page 1, or the author might make a vague reference (this character enjoyed rap music) but it's usually not very specific. I've always found this odd, as I always use quite a bit of songs in stuff I write (sometimes because it makes sense for the scene, sometimes because it's what I'm listening to at the time). My writing teacher told me the only risk with that is the cultural reference might be lost on the reader who has never heard the song... Which I guess makes sense, but then again, I'm the sort who, when I come across something in a book, say a song or a film that I've never heard/seen, will usually go check it out.

One of the few writers I can name who has a lot of songs in his work is Bret Easton Ellis. Which I enjoy because after you're done reading it you can assemble a soundtrack of the book made up of all the songs that appeared in it. Glamorama has a massive soundtrack, and I had to buy a lot of CDs to complete it, but on the bright side it exposed me to some bands/artists who I had never listened to much before but ended up enjoying.

I guess, bottomline, I wished more books had soundtracks.

00:18 / 09.07.05

I usually like it. In the case of The Invisibles, I was exposed to a whole bunch of new bands, and when I did get the references, as in the Pink Floyd and Morrissey stuff, it was an added bonus. There's obviously a point at which it can go too far, but the well placed musical reference can add a lot to a work.

14:26 / 09.07.05

Tangent tells me that the copyright fee of quoting well-known song lyrics is prohibitively high, which is why novels don't use the 'soundtrack' option to push readers' nostalgia buttons and place themselves in time and space in the same way that films can (apart from Stephen King novels, because he can afford it). She also says that it's more trouble than it's worth referring to real songs/bands in books because music is such a precisely calibrated subcultural signifier - and those signifiers change so quickly - that you run a high risk of either (a) breaking your readers' belief in the characters (no way would Hamlet listen to Britney Spears!) or (b) alienating your readers (God, I thought Hamlet was cool, but he's listening to Coldplay, what a saddo). She writes for Young Adults, which intensifies the risks (especially in terms of dating and high rate-of-change of musical tastes), but I think it's striking that the two writers mentioned on this thread - Grant M and Bret Easton E - are both really making quite a big deal out of their musical references. The music in American Psycho is one of the main ways that Patrick Bateman is characterized (and, importantly, you're not meant to share his musical tastes), and in both Psycho and The Invisibles, the musical references are part of a huge torrent of very precise and specific (sub)cultural references. I think it's harder than you think to put music in books without thematizing it in the way both these writers do.

I have to admit that I still think making up bands/song lyrics in books is kind of lame and wrong, though. But it's hard to think of another way round all the problems above, while still acknowledging how big a place music takes up in most people's lives...

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15:16 / 09.07.05

Well, I don't think you need to have actual lyrics... I think it usually suffices to just say something like "I'm listening to (band name) (song name)". I agree that it can make the work seem dated, but then again, a lot of Ellis' books are very much rooted in time or place (usually the 80's or, in "Glamorama"'s case, the 90's in general) so music is one tool that can be used to define that time period.

03:39 / 10.07.05

I think you're right that it can be lost on the reader, but unless it's central to the plot, that shouldn't really be a problem.

One author you should definetly check out is Haruki Murakami. All of his work is loaded with references to jazz, classical, and popular music. he even has a book titled Norwegian Wood after the Beatles song. his site even has a list of all the music references he's made in his work... over 250 (to songs, musicians, and albums)

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:43 / 10.07.05

PZB and Caitlin Kiernan both do this quite a lot- as you say, Sypha, it's more namedropping than quoting- everyone's always listening to goth music. I guess in their case Deva's (otherwise eminently sensible) point about alienating the reader doesn't come into play so much- a large part of their fanbase (I'm talking PZB's horror stuff here) are NOT gonna be put off by someone listening to Bauhaus or Skinny Puppy...

All Acting Regiment

09:54 / 10.07.05

Well, I don't think you need to have actual lyrics...just say something like "I'm listening to (band name) (song name)"...dated...define that time period.

Definitely. And not just time period either: I think it all has to fit the character's various attributes- sex, age, class. It has to be beleivable that that person, at that time, at that age, in that place, would listen to that exact music, you get me?

Like in High Fidelity, the guy's always raving about music- that's because he's a record store guy- 30s, middle class, single- compare this to (yuck) Anne Rice's Guns 'n' Roses crap. I seem not to have blocked out that that was a significant part of her vampire books, at least near theend, with loads of references: and it just didn't work because she was glorifying something that was uber cool then. Whereas I'd reckon HF's character is pretty much timeless, because there's always some guy with an obsessive interest like that.

All Acting Regiment

09:59 / 10.07.05

point about alienating the reader doesn't come into play so much- a large part of their fanbase (I'm talking PZB's horror stuff here) are NOT gonna be put off by someone listening to Bauhaus or Skinny Puppy...

But surely if it only appeals to a fanbase/select subculture (which is now really only sustained not by itself but by an image of itself- double obscurity), then it can't be said to have an ability to appeal to just anyone? IE it isn't universal IE it is elitist? Therefore it just proves the point about alienation?

Not to have a go at you or anything, I mean I'm always up for a bit of Skinny Puppy.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:08 / 10.07.05

Oh yeah, but what I meant was that the books probably aren't gonna appeal to everyone anyway... those two writers probably aren't gonna lose themselves any readers because of the musical references that they wouldn't already have lost because of the rest of the content. If you're reading a horror novel about some goths already, you're probably not going to be put off when they turn their stereos on.

Apart from anything else, if the kids in Spider were all getting on down to Travis, it'd seem a little odd. As would their not listening to any music at all (and it's probably easier to chuck in the name of a band rather than describe their music in such an abstract way that you'd draw attention to the fact that you weren't referencing anything in particular, which could also jar a little. Not saying it can't be done, just that it's much easier to bung a name in, if it seems appropriate).

(Oh, and don't worry- you didn't come across as "having a go" at all).

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:51 / 10.07.05

I think the important point here is this: some people say "only Nazis burn books", but, well... have any of those people ever read High Fidelity? I think not. And if they have, and they still think it's always wrong to burn books, then they need... help.

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12:04 / 10.07.05

I don't really think that a book should try to appeal to everyone... anything that tries to please everybody usually has to set it's sights pretty low, IMO.

Right now I'm reading Ellis' "The Rules of Attraction" for the first time and there are many song references such as, you know, there's a party and Ellis says what kind of music is playing like "New Order", "Talking Heads", "Replacements", and so on. Which I suppose means nothing to anyone who isn't a fan of eighties music, but I enjoy it.

Poppy Z. Brite's earlier books did have quite a few musical references, as noted... Her latest ones don't have as much... Maybe a reference to Snoop Dogg or Steve Miller now and then.

12:34 / 10.07.05

George Pelecanos writes (excellent) crime fiction where the music is an essential part of the atmosphere - especially in those set in the sixties and seventies. I believe in fact for "Hard Revolution" there was some kind of promotional soundtrack album featuring artists and songs from the book. He uses music not only to place the books in a certain period of time but also as a kind of commentary on the characters. Worth checking out.

Tryphena Absent

20:31 / 10.07.05

have any of those people ever read High Fidelity? I think not.

I have and I don't want to burn it. I mean it admittedly didn't strike me as a great book but it just wasn't Time's Arrow by Martin Amis, which incidentally doesn't contain any references to music as far as I recall but that would make it an even worse book than it already is so we can all thank higher powers everywhere for that.

All of the books mentioned as having a great deal of musical reference in them seem to be very based in certain subcultures. Ellis always uses music as an anchor in his novels, so does Hornby, indeed the majority of the people above are a certain type of cultural author. The music's an easy shorthand to the situations they're locked into and the music is often an obsession, probably to the author as well as the character. If a book doesn't need that shorthand to time/obsession the mention of specific groups/songs often falls down (hello Anne Rice). I don't think it's the glorification that is out of place, it's just that in certain novels where the music is used as incidental it feels unnecessary and very clumsy to focus on it because it isn't integral to characters, their observations of the world or their personalities.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

21:14 / 10.07.05

I liked High Fidelity. And I don't actually like that many of the songs mentioned in it. I do dislike Nick Hornby a great deal, but I liked that book.

...sorry, what was your point again?

01:06 / 11.07.05

I'm wondering if Bret Easton Ellis' new book is going to be anchored by pop culture as well. Since the novel seems to be all about the hall of mirrors that fiction is, wouldn't it make sense for Ellis to create a myriad of fake musical references?

PLUG: Discuss the new Ellis novel here

14:32 / 11.07.05

I think literary references in music are a much better idea.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

17:20 / 11.07.05

And I'm sure Mastodon agree.

\m/

01:12 / 12.07.05

Sorry for the quick response, no read topic, but I scanned for links and nobody seems to have linked to it, so I'll mention right off the bat that Large Hearted Boy's blog runs a semiregular "Book Notes" section wherein he asks authors to provide soundtrack track-listings for their novels. There's one here, and the rest are in the archives under Book Notes in the left hand column. It's an interesting take on music and books and their relationship.

And now having read the thread, I have a couple other things to add. First, I quoted a section from Laurie Anderson's 'O Superman' in my novel and it cost me 250 bucks for four lines, I think (and I had to pay it too - terms of the contract and all, but it just came out of the advance, so no biggie). I was sort of okay with the expense, because I wanted the lines in there, and I thought it was important to pay for their use, although in hindsight Laurie probably didn't see any of that money. Admittedly it was also a way of trying to draw Laurie's attention my way, so that's okay too.

I'm working on a book at the moment that's set partially in the band scene in Melbourne in the 1980s and it's an interesting experience because I'm not personally au fait with what was happening then - I'm just a smidge too young - so trying to get the authenticity of the setting right has involved research and consideration of how many real people to incorporate into the story (with all the considerations involved in such a thing). Even so, I've made the decision to use lots of real bands in the 80s stuff while not mentioning many real bands in the contemporary sequences, precisely because I want those bits to be timeless, whereas I NEED a sense of the era in the flashbacks.

[/rant]

m.

10:07 / 16.07.05

I've made the decision to use lots of real bands in the 80s stuff while not mentioning many real bands in the contemporary sequences, precisely because I want those bits to be timeless, whereas I NEED a sense of the era in the flashbacks

I think that's key (and thanks for the link, matsya). I was thinking of a book I'd read recently which lists all the tracks on the mix tape the main character's made for his best friend - Sushi Central, an Australian Dennis Cooper-influenced YA novel (which you'd think I'd like a lot more than I do) - and it reminded me of this anecdote. Tangent was on a panel with the author of SC (forget his name), who cited Bret Easton Ellis as one of his influences, and also said that he and Bret Easton Ellis were "writing period novels, only the period is the present." The cultural references - especially the musical ones - seem to be a big part of that: that is, music references tend to be a way of placing a narrative very precisely in either a subcultural context - esp. where the characters are using music to place themselves within a subculture itself defined partly through musical choice eg Goth - or in a time period.

14:00 / 16.07.05

Y'know, ever since I read Thomas Tessier's "Addicted to Love", from the compilation "Shock Rock", every time I hear that song, I think about strangling someone with a headphone cord...

So, do you like Huey Lewis and the News?