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Meditation: who needs it?

  
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:02 / 08.07.05
Okay, needlessly provocative thread title, I admit. But it's a serious question.

This was triggered by some comments in the Trying to get some results thread.

For years I've included at least ten minutes or so of meditation in my daily practice. I've taken it as an article of faith that this was an absolutely essential prerequisite for any halfway decent magical work. Okay, there were times when I let it slide for a few weeks, maybe longer, but I always got back into it.

Until I started the regular deity work, when everything changed. For a while after I began performing regular altar services, I could hardly meditate at all. I've gradually got to the point where I can maintain a meditative state for a few minutes a day, provided I'm using an exitatory technique such as walking meditation.

The place that meditation filled in my life is now filled by what I might call communion. I perfom at least one full altar service a week, and usually end up doing two to different Gods. Aside from these, I also spend some time every day at one or more of my household shrines, or visiting spaces that are deemed sacred to a particular God or Goddess, making an offering and attempting to open a dialogue or simply spending some time in contemplation of that being and His or Her mysteries. Sometimes these interactions can be quite lengthy, taking up hours at a time, and can also be very intense. They take me well outside of what I would call normal consciousness; there's a real sense that I am communing with something much greater than me.

The question I'd ask, very seriously, is: Does a magician always need meditation? Am I finding it harder to access that state simply because I am fulfilling the role that meditation plays in another manner?

What about cultures where meditation as we know it is not practiced? Are their magicians less effective or less developed somehow?
 
 
Olulabelle
23:25 / 08.07.05
Do you not think that what you are doing is meditation, in a sense?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:41 / 08.07.05
Arguable; but it feels very different.
 
 
Unconditional Love
00:42 / 09.07.05
meditation isnt applicable in all cultural contexts, but trance seems to be a common magickal practice. of course meditation is alot of different things depending on the culture and belief structure and so is trance.

so are we talking meditation to clear the mind, empty it? focus it? maintain awareness one pointedness, for a greater awareness of whole body feeling?, counting breath, alot of broad activities seem to fit under the heading of meditation. some of them trance inducing , some of them trying to aim for the opposite.

i dont think meditation is necessary, but i get a distinct impression altered consciousness is and one way to achieve that would be to enter a meditative state, however you would qualify that.

blimey.
 
 
rising and revolving
00:48 / 09.07.05
Depends. Are you still a magician, per se?

That might sound bollocks (and it is) but bear with me for a minute. I'm going to jump across to using the terms of yoga, simply because it has nice divisions for this stuff.

Bhakti yoga is the yoga of devotion, while Raja yoga is the yoga of meditation. Karma yoga fits in here a bit, as an almost Taoist conception of serving the divine (but in a non-devotional sense, sort of, it's confusing..)

Anyhow, I wonder if you're moving in the directions that would better deserve a more religious title than 'magician' - perhaps 'priest/ess', maybe 'shaman'? What is a magician, in the yogic system, anyhow? Does magic even fit?

Ultimately, we get to the "do you need meditation" - well, you do to achive union via meditation (Raja Yoga) but it's entirely unnecessary for Bhakti or Jnana (or Hatha) yoga - and they're all well documented paths to union.

Have I answered anything? Not really. But the question is, do you will change? Does it work? Did you need to meditate? Sounds like the answer is yes, yes, not really - so no, you don't need meditation to be a magician.

I'm all over the shop. Sorry.
 
 
h3r
01:01 / 09.07.05
yes, i think as an effective magician you do need to meditate.

i define "meditation" as
active participation in the rhythm of the universe
which can mean many things.
But an essential aspects of that is focus.
and focus is key for a magician.( thats why we have atu1, the magus. for one point, focus, blablabla)

chances are that your are still meditating, just in a different way than u r used to?

I personally do try to get the traditional meditation periods in, but I feel very strong about various creative activities to carry the same weight and importance and effect. focus and temporary loss of ego and the "magickal consciousness" is key i think.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
02:23 / 09.07.05
Are you still a magician, per se?... I wonder if you're moving in the directions that would better deserve a more religious title than 'magician' - perhaps 'priest/ess', maybe 'shaman'?

Those terms, especially "shaman," make my eyes bleed. However it's a reasonable question under the circumstances, and one I've been asking myself. Where does the magician stop and the priest begin?
 
 
--
05:16 / 09.07.05
There are a ton of books on meditation at work, but... most of the authors are either bald, have annoying goatees, or punchable faces. So I dunno... Seems dodgy.

I've tried meditation a lot over the years, but it never really caught my interest. I think it worked maybe once, but that was it. My problem is I'm totally hyperactive, I have trouble sitting still because I don't like focusing on one thing at once, my mind is always going in three different directions.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
03:30 / 10.07.05
I think it might be profitable if we could define a few terms here. What do we mean by:

Meditation
Prayer
Magician
Preist
Shaman?

How do these various concepts differ from one another? What are the areas of overlap?
 
 
h3r
23:14 / 10.07.05
I think it might be profitable if we could define a few terms here. What do we mean by:

Meditation
see my post above

Prayer
adressing a God. often implies "asking for something", but not necessarily, can also be giving of thanks, or pure acknowledgment

Magician
a person who uses a set of psychological tools to gain a more thorough understanding of his life as a microcosm of the whole universe.

Priest
a person who dedicates her/his life to a specific deity/group of deities

Shaman please say Shah-Mahn and not Shayman
a person who uses a set of psychological tools (mostly relating to the mystical and symbolic death experience) to heal situations and members of his tribe (IMHO a shaman is basically a magician who specifically dedicates his life towards healing others. Even though the magician's aspiration ultimately also heals the planet/mass consciousness/tribe, he is foremost focused on his own "growth")
 
 
h3r
23:21 / 10.07.05
My problem is I'm totally hyperactive, I have trouble sitting still because I don't like focusing on one thing at once, my mind is always going in three different directions.

syph, I can relate to that
I have been told that ESPECIALLY with these symptoms, meditation can be very beneficial (in magickal workings as well as just for "normal" life stuff....what was the difference between the two again..?)
maybe give Tai Chi a shot, a very valid form of meditation...?
then again, maybe really dont need mediation for your work, but to clarify, what sort of magic do you work?
 
 
--
23:53 / 10.07.05
No, it's just, there's always some new movie to watch, CD to listen to, friend to chat to, book to read, and so on. I get distracted very easily, which is probably why I'm greating at starting writing projects but crap at finishing them! I just have trouble focusing on one thing at a time. Of course, I guess it is good to keep active.
 
 
illmatic
09:45 / 11.07.05
I wouldn’t say that every magician needs meditation, ‘cos I don’t think that there’s a one size fits all definition of a magician. I’m sure there have been plenty of tribal shamans and indigenous practiconers over the eons who have never done any med. in the “eastern” specific way, who absolutely kicked ass. Having said that, it plays a big part in my practice – awareness of internal dialogue/use of senses/work on kleshas etc.is something I try and work with constantly whenever I’m awake, and sometimes when I’m asleep as well – but it takes place in differing contexts – chilling out deliberately on the bus using breathing and attention is as much meditation to me as half our in lotus posture (and occurs more often at the moment). I’m doing standing and moving mediations daily as part of my martial arts practice, as another for instance.

So, I don’t think it’s essential but I’d also add that I think if people aren’t prepared to test their own boundaries, commit to regular practice of longer than five minutes/two days, really work at understanding and improving their abilities and stop making bloody excuses – whatever the practice - then they’re a bloody waste of space.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:36 / 11.07.05
I'm on the same page as Mordant with this. I am rubbish at setting aside time to do meditation in the "eastern" sense, yet spend a lot of time in contemplation and communion with deity. If you're defining meditation as "active participation in the rhythm of the universe" then I'm pretty much there, my practice puts me there. I feel that between the deity work, my Silat and Tai Chi regimes, I have a lot of the bases covered already. But have I really? Am I missing a trick? Am I just skirting around the issue of something I personally find really difficult to engage with.

The obvious answer is to try it and find out. It occurred to me that I might have more success in sticking to meditation practice if I tried to situate it more solidly within the context of my existing body of practices. I was thinking I could approach an "Eastern" deity associated with meditative practice, perhaps from a Tibetan Buddhist or Tantra pantheon, and perform meditation under their auspices. This would help me "set the scene" for the practice a bit more and would certainly resonate with me personally, invest it with a sense of meaning, and give me more of a handle on getting to grips with it. But then, the further I go in this direction, the more it comes to resemble deity worship and my existing practices. So will anything more be accomplished? Thoughts?
 
 
---
11:02 / 11.07.05
But then, the further I go in this direction, the more it comes to resemble deity worship and my existing practices. So will anything more be accomplished? Thoughts?

I'm thinking that you'd accomplish more (if it's right for you at the time you do it, and if you eventually choose to.) because it still seems like a different method. Instead of learning from various deities, I think you'd be in a way, learning from yourself, with the Eastern diety as more of a figure to help you focus as opposed to actually transmitting teachings to you in the way you possibly practise at the moment. I'm not saying that you don't already learn from yourself when you practise, but that you'd probably be learning more from within your own mind by using an Eastern practise.

My knowledge of Eastern methods is limited, but from what I'm thinking, some will focus on various Buddha's to help them be better at their own meditation, others invoke and use ritual. I think some even invoke the Buddha from within themselves and use that as a guide, pretty much like invoking the HGA I think and then using that to stay on track. The question is which works best, are they all as good, etc, but I think they're just varied because different people work in different ways.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:40 / 11.07.05
That's sort of what I was hoping, that I could make contact with an Eastern deity or aspect of the Buddha whose whole deal would be about helping me develop my meditation practices, and the nature of working with them would be all about that. I can almost see the broad shape of how this might pan out, but the details are still unclear. Anyone in a position to elaborate further on this theme? I'm not sure where to start or exactly what it is I'm vaguely grasping towards?
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:48 / 11.07.05
bliss queen
 
 
illmatic
13:40 / 11.07.05
As a certain well known adept has said recently. give me the why, and I’ll give you the how. I think if you have sufficiently strong motivation in a specific area, you’ll find out a way. (And conversely if “there's always some new movie to watch, CD to listen to, friend to chat to, book to read,” then all you’re really saying is that these things are more important than your practice).

I feel that strong motivations would arise from connecting any meditative disciplines undertaken with other areas of your life and practice. A mistake I made was not to think I could undertake anything “complex” until I had perfected my meditative ability which I had a pre-coneceived idea of as being difficult, austere and boring. I did it, or a lot of it, but never achieved the heights I hoped for- reading too much Crowley and forming a grand ideal, really.

A friend made a comment recently that one of these reasons yantras exist – diagrams with a variety of different deities (or forms of deities) arrayed around then (say in one angle of a triangle , Kali with a mobile phone and a severed head, in another with a felt tip pen and a bone mala) - because of the difficulties beginners have with holding images of any one thing for a sustained period. If you are keeping a visualisation mobile and alive, moving from aspect to aspect it becomes easier to hold, and you also form a more complete picture of the deity. Also, yantras are basically “nets” of relationships, different schemes for systemising differing aspects of life, which are all seen as aspects of the deity. I’d be tempted, if I was in your position to work with a yantra for a while – daily, semi-daily, weekly. It helps with concentration and visualisation, but should be sufficiently interesting to hold your attention and makes the connection between the mediation and day to day life.

I have a few tantric yantras I explain to you, or you could check out some Buddhist ones, which as I understand them, are about developing specific life qualities in accordance with Buddhist philosophy – compassion etc, at the same time as offering worship.

Hope this is clear. Am writing with one eye on a database I’m supposed to be working on.
 
 
illmatic
13:59 / 11.07.05
Apologies if that sounds ever so slightly patronsing BTW - you're not exactly a "beginner". Was going to add that best of all, yantras are bright, colourful, fun to visualise, puzzling out relationships and can form the basis of artwork etc. My contribution to the "Wandering Notebook" is a yantra, for instance.
 
 
Devil's Avocado
14:55 / 11.07.05
I think Meditation is such an umbrella term it’s essential to try and define your goals.

Meditation as presented via Western Trad seems to be focussed on cultivating concentration and stable inner awareness to facilitate working more clearly with the ‘astral’ aspects of ritual. I first came across it in this context as initial groundwork leading up to such things as LBRP and Elemental Equilibration, Middle pillar etc

Meditation as mentioned in Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras includes steps such as;
Breath control, withdrawl of senses, concentration and contemplation (Absorption/Meditation istself) with the focus being on attainment of Union; the experience of non-duality.

I totally agree with Lucky’s points on self knowledge through meditative introspection and committing to a regular practice. Also on the power of simple postures like standing-on-a-bus-asana to increase ‘awake-awareness’.

In my personal practice of Tai Chi I find a well executed form shifts my awareness from ego chatter to a greater sense of integration with the macrocosm. Key experiences afterwards are degrees of intense inner stillness and to a lesser extent joy in simply being (rather than doing). During sitting meditation, simple pranayama, pratyahara and dhyana lead to a similar state of inner stillness and joy.

Working with deities I find the initial steps of meditation the easiest way of slipping into a degree of trance which opens the gateway to communication. I’ll then use a excitory technique on top of that (usually pranayama) to establish gnosis for contact.

I’m not suggesting the West vs East examples I used above are incompatible, but I find going into deep trance or doing Tai Chi for hours takes me far away from desire to perform magical workings. It makes me enjoy simplicity in being, with no need to do anything.

GL: ‘I was hoping that I could make contact with an Eastern deity or aspect of the Buddha whose whole deal would be about helping me develop my meditation practices’

An interesting angle I came across, (when trying to crowbar Buddhism on to the Tree of Life) was the assertion that the Gods were unenlightened and/or deluded beings trapped in Samsara too, their attachment being pride in their status and glory. In light of such stance appealing to deities for meditative help seems rather odd; ‘Blessed [appropriate deity] please help me meditate to achieve escape trajectory from involuntary rebirth on wheel of life (and therefore your influence).’

Most living Hinayana (and some Mahayana) practitioners I have talked to have been quite uncomfortable discussing deities, referring to communion as just another illusion that should be discarded on the way to enlightenment.

If you want to work with Deities, Tibetan or Mahayana Buddhism provides plenty to appeal to. Padmasambhava (at the top of the queen bliss link) is a great example of a magician who ‘turned’ to the Dharma (– subduing a shitload of demons along the way) and as such would provide a good link for a magician to appeal to. Milarepa another ‘black’ magician this time who turned to Dharma. But coming from regular work with another (non-Eastern) pantheon may leave confusion over any communication/imparted symbolism (and a funny taste in the mouth). As Lucky mentioned Yantras could be a good way to get the flavour of these.
Of course if the goal of your meditation practice is to achieve enlightenment, then why not work with Shakyamuni (The) Buddha himself? Not sure this is quite what you’re after though..
I think it would be helpful to consider your aim in developing meditation skills (and which skills you wish to develop) and question if there are any deities in your 'native' pantheon who could preside over success in this?.

eg If you’re Norse oriented, maybe meditating on Hunnin and Munin - communicating/merging with them, would improve concentration/contemplation and mastery of thought?
Bit of a crap example, but hope you know what I’m getting at..
 
 
h3r
18:47 / 11.07.05
The obvious answer is to try it and find out.
gypsy.
you're on to something!

ok folks, lets get scientific here:

who of you here is somewhat of a magician and DOES NOT practice any sort of meditation .
please step forward and tell us what sort of practices you are into.
i'd be curious.

93 93/93
 
 
Morpheus
02:43 / 12.07.05
This is the fucking stupidist...of all stupid ideas. Quik answer...it is essential to being a "real" magician. Why is that? The Hsin moves the Chi.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:11 / 12.07.05
So presumably all of those non-eastern cultures throughout the world that don't practice eastern-style meditation are unable to produce "real" magicians.
 
 
Ganesh
08:37 / 12.07.05
I guess they don't want to be record-breakers.
 
 
illmatic
09:46 / 12.07.05
Well done Morpehus, you have completely missed the subtlies of the thread as well as been pointlessly insulting, continuing your record of making no positve contribution to the board whatsoever. Go and stick your Hsin up your chi, yeah?
 
 
Unconditional Love
10:18 / 12.07.05
to an earlier point, the definitions shaman priest and magician dont seem to me that different at all, compare for example the court magician as serving a community just as the shaman and priest do, the idea of the isolated magician is more akin to the hermit idea, how these 2 ideas interwove id be intrested to learn. the court magician serving the king/queen and castle and surrounding community is often over looked idea, although the environment has changed it is still a workable idea in my opinion.
 
 
Devil's Avocado
11:55 / 12.07.05
GL, Consulted a couple of sources about the best deity/boddhisatva to work with re: meditation and unanimous answer was; Samanthabadra the 'all good' or buddha of perfected mind.

I'll do a bit of reserch and PM you some guidlines for a sadhana.

Nice posture Morpheus. Sounds like a good point in there though.. maybe you could elaborate a bit on the principle of mind moving chi without simultaneously pissing everyone else off?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:26 / 12.07.05
Devil's Avocado, can I demonstrate an enormous amount of cheek and ask you to clue me in too? I'd be very interested.
 
 
Devil's Avocado
17:22 / 12.07.05
Sure thing M, I'll let you know if I come up with anything useful
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:39 / 12.07.05
Samanthabadra, something in relation to this bodhissattva called the king of prayers? that may be of use.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:43 / 12.07.05
king of prayers mp3 format
 
  
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