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Slavery and American Sport

 
  

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grant
20:53 / 12.07.05
Well, the point I was making was simply that, as far as the (social) scientists are concerned, it's not just a bygone bit of news, but a very real mindset, a subject for current analysis. It's not too way out to ask this kind of question in a science forum.

(It is, as has been ably demonstrated, a question with an awful lot of hidden stuff going on behind it, though, culturally speaking.)

I also do think we'll (as in the whole culture, not us on Barbelith) be grappling with the effects of slavery -- with *determining* the effects of America's particular kind of slavery -- for a couple hundred more years. By which time, hopefully, we'll have a whole new network of assumptions behind our questions.
 
 
Atyeo
21:42 / 12.07.05
Sure, I can see in hindsight that my original question was very poor and that there are a lot of assumptions which can (and have been) shot down. But you must understand that I didn't actually mean arguement to mean that anyone is being particularly aggressive. I just wanted to put the theory out in to the Barbelith ether and see what you a bunch of interesting and enlightened people thought of it and why it was right/wrong.

I was more hoping for answers along the lines of - "that theory seems incorrect because of X & Y" not "there's a lot of moral ugliness just below the surface" or "the self-congratulation of being to think outside the box of "political correctness" and enquire into such a "touchy subject""

I'm sorry I appeared to be implying all those things because as far as I can tell through introspection, I do not subscribe to any of those views.
 
 
Jack Fear
21:55 / 12.07.05
Oh, the moral ugliness was purely incidental. My main objection to the theory is that it's uninformed, ill thought-out, and logically fallacious.

That's in its specifics—the notion of superior physical ability. But as Grant quite rightly points out, the legacy of slavery is far-reaching indeed, and continues to reverberate in the black community—manifesting itself in the legacy of racism, economic inequality, and lack of opportunity that plagues the community.

And it is those forces, I would argue, that contribute most heavily to the predominance of African-Americans in sports.

So in a sense, I agree with you: it all does come back to slavery... but not in the way that you initially proposed.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:47 / 12.07.05
I was more hoping for answers along the lines of - "that theory seems incorrect because of X & Y" not "there's a lot of moral ugliness just below the surface" or "the self-congratulation of being to think outside the box of "political correctness" and enquire into such a "touchy subject""

One might view an inherent flaw in asking a question looking for a kind of answer. Amongst people I chat with it's called fishing. Does that mean fishing is worng in and of it self? not quite. Perhaps, sometimes.

Here, the question posted, prompted a series of other questions, some of which might well be useful to examine on a personal level; as well as on the more abstract-interesting-online-discussion sort of way.

It might be interesting to examine how one would suddenly develop or come accross such a supposition.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:53 / 14.07.05
I was more hoping for answers along the lines of - "that theory seems incorrect because of X & Y"

I think you got those, too, didn't you? Especially given that some of the Xs and Ys that made the theory incorrect were unexamined assumptions (isn't this more often than not the case)?

At the risk of hastening this thread's slide into meta-ness, I just want to say that I don't think you were "fishing", atyeo (at least not in a bad way) - I think your question was worth asking and answering. But having said that, I think the answers it got have been appropriate.
 
 
Atyeo
09:48 / 14.07.05
Fair enough Deva, I see what you are saying.

I think in retrospect that my question should have originally been broken down into seperate smaller questions.

A. Do genetic differences play an important role in athletic ability.

B. Can the gene pool of large group of people be altered in any significant way in a small amount of generations (eg. 10) when there are large external pressures.

I personally believe that genetic differences do play a major factor in sport as demonstrated by the Kenyan example. Maybe 95% of the influence is socioeconomic but that 5% genetic difference is crucial at the pinnacle of any sport.

I am a lot more hazy on the second question and that is why I was stated that I wasn't sure of the scientific validity of the statement. However, I can see that there were many assumptions in my original question and will be much more considerate in the future.
 
 
grant
16:09 / 14.07.05
If you're really curious about the genetics angle, there's a researcher at University of Miami who put forward this theory about seven years ago asking the same question, only about snapper.

Apparently, their average adult size has dropped sharply in reaction to about 100 years of fishing.

Can't remember the guy's name, though -- you'd probably be able to google it.
 
 
Atyeo
08:10 / 15.07.05
Cheers for that Grant.

I managed to track the guy down - Jon Entine.

It seems that there is still a lot of debate going on about gentic differences in sport, however, he doesn't believe that slavery played any part in creating the diversity.
 
 
grant
20:38 / 15.07.05
Weird, that's a total coincidence. The guy I was thinking of is a marine biologist from the University of Miami in Florida. That Taboo book does seem right up yer alley, though.

Interesting that he traces genetic differences back to not slavery but the fact that modern Africans' ancestors didn't migrate (millions of years ago). At least, according to the summary.

I wonder, with regard to this passage from the review here: Some scholars cry foul at the idea that blacks are physically gifted, seeing this as a subtle way of saying that they are therefore intellectually stunted. Entine carefully argues that historically athletic ability and intellectual prowess were linked--with a positive bias. The "dumb jock" stereotype is a relatively recent construct--perhaps a defensive mechanism that arose when blacks began to participate on a level playing field and gain prominence in the sporting world. There's no reason to suppose athleticism and intelligence are inversely related; Entine quotes respected sports reporter Frank Deford: "[W]hen Jack Nicklaus sinks a 30-foot putt, nobody thinks his IQ goes down."

...if that "dumb jock"-as-race-thing didn't have something to do with the amazing and controversial career of Paul Robeson.


----

Oh, hell, it's a Friday and I'm all alone in the writer's alley of the newsroom...

Weird -- the only real google hits I get on this are all vague stuff about marine fisheries and very specifc stuff... my own Barbelith posts in old threads about evolution.

Frustratingly, this subscriber-only New Scientist article seems to cover the same ground.

This Christian Science Monitor article has more information (you can read the whole thing and not just the first two paragraphs), although it's a year old. It doesn't mention the Miami guy I associate this with, but I'm sure the Norwegian study they mention was part of the same thing.

Contemporary evolution is what the phenomenon is called, nowadays. And it's still sort of new and controversial.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:07 / 17.07.05
I haven't read this whole thread because, you know, I can only take so much flirty racism before the combined boredom and aggravation makes my eyes glaze over. I just wanted to say that a massage therapist friend once told me that black people have tighter, denser fascia--the tissues that bind muscle and skin together--than people of other races, which accounts for very slight tendency of black people to appear more muscular.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:38 / 17.07.05
P.S. - Why don't people ever look at culture as an evolutionary device?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:55 / 17.07.05
Start a thread on it and I'll join in, Qalyn.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
23:14 / 17.07.05
Me?!? I have no idea what I'm talking about.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
12:59 / 01.10.07
The first time I encountered this argument:

As we all know, slave-owners broke up the family unit: they would separate husbands and wives, and treat their slaves like breeding stock. As we also know, there's an epidemic of sexual irresponsibility among black men—leading to a whole generation being raised in single-parent homes. Is it possible that black men are chronically unfaithful and incapable of monogamy because they have been conditioned to be thus by generations of slavery?

which Jack Fear describes as another fallacious racist canard, this time wrapped in pseudosociological language

was in works by African-American feminists, and used as an anti-racist argument - basically, the reason African-Americans and African-Caribbean peoples tend not to conform to normative ideals of the nuclear family as much as either white people or Africans-whose-ancestors-weren't-enslaved isn't because they are somehow genetically predisposed to "irresponsibility", but because of the way that their culture and family structure was destroyed by slavery.

(Of course, it wasn't put as simplistically as in that sarcastic one-paragraph description of it, and nor were heavily normatively loaded phrases such as "sexual irresponsibility" or "chronically unfaithful and incapable of monogamy", but with that moralistic language replaced by more neutral sociological language it was essentially the same argument.)

That aside, the selective-breeding-in-slavery thing... I remember something in a book that I studied in school for English (probably at about 13/14). Unfortunately i can't remember the author or title, but it was a book by a female African-American author, (probably) aimed at a teenage audience and set in the segregation-era Southern US. There was a peripheral character who was very tall, strong and dark-skinned, and was referred to by another African-American character as being "from breeded stock" - there was then an explanation of selective breeding.

Something like that being put in a novel obviously isn't evidence that deliberate selective breeding on slave plantations actually happened, but it's at least evidence that, among African-American communities in the Southern US, it's a familiar and plausible concept. Knowing what else happened in the slave plantations of the US and the Caribbean (which were an order of magnitude different from any other form of slavery in known human history), it seems plausible, if horrifying, to me too.

I scratched my head at this: the assumption that the achievements of blacks in America must somehow be because of (rather than despite) their treatment at the hands of the white man, until i realised that i was coming at it from a somewhat opposite angle to Jack Fear (probably because of my own specificity as a disabled person whose experience of sport at school was mostly one of torture, and therefore finds it extremely hard to think of "athleticism" as a positive achievement).

I think the "dumb jock" thing comes into play here, and i think it's wrong to see that archetype as being one of as recent an origin as the reviewer quoted by Grant sees it. The false idea that physical strength correlates negatively to intellectual prowess (what i've heard referred to as the "Hulk-to-Hawking continuum") is, AFAIK, mostly one arising from the pseudoscientific ideas used by colonial-era "sociobiologists" to justify racism, colonialism and slavery, the "reasoning" being:

a) non-whites are physically stronger than whites
b) an increase of physical strength in a human being correlates to a decrease in intellectual ability
c) the "direction" of human evolution is from physical strength and mental weakness towards physical weakness and mental strength
d) non-whites must, therefore, be less intelligent than whites (because of a) and b) ) and belong to an earlier stage of human evolution (because of b) and c) ), and so "inferior" to whites, which justifies invasion of their lands, enslavement, etc.

(Of course this is pseudoscience because it is based on a completely mistaken view of evolution and because the correlation b) simply does not exist...)

IMO it's this archetype which survives today in the form of the stereotype of the "dumb jock" and the assumption that athleticism and intelligence are mutually exclusive. (It can also be seen in characters like Lenny from Of Mice And Men and the commonly held idea that mentally disabled people have "superhuman strength", which IMO informs a lot of the techniques of disablist abuse found in institutions "for" such people.)

(I'm tempted to spin off here into a discussion of Cartesian/Enlightenment ideas of mind and body as antagonistic opposites to each other, but that's probably tangential enough to deserve another thread, probably in Head Shop rather than Lab)

I think it's reasonable to assume that if plantation owners were selectively breeding their slaves according to a "eugenic" programme, they would have been breeding for both increased strength and decreased intelligence, and have seen those characteristics as linked together. Of course, the key thing is that if - and also the question of whether such attempts at selection could have been successful in as few generations as there were during the historical period of American slavery. My (slightly sketchy) knowledge of genetics suggests not - but i don't think it's necessarily racist to consider the possibility...
 
 
Spaniel
14:58 / 01.10.07
...but i don't think it's necessarily racist to consider the possibility...

You know what I think? I think I'd like this extremely horrid topic to go away.
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
16:10 / 01.10.07
There's a couple of ways "this extremely horrid topic" could be interpreted.

If you mean this thread (and i agree that in many ways, particularly some of the very racist language used in the first few posts in it, it can accurately be described as "horrid"), then i apologise for dredging it up. I found it accidentally while searching for something else, and i'd be happy to let it slide back down again if people think it's too unpleasant to want to re-read.

However, if you mean the whole subject of slavery and the horrific ways in which people were treated during that period, then i would vehemently disagree. Discussion of what actually happened during slavery, and of the long-term effects that slavery has had on slave-descended peoples, culturally, economically, politically, psychologically, and maybe even physiologically, is something that to me is absolutely necessary, and really, really shouldn't be ignored or swept under the carpet because it's "too unpleasant to think about". We need to know the past, however horrific that past, in order to be able to even attempt to prevent its repetition in the future.

Maybe there is another topic to be had in the (what some might call) macabre fascination evoked by delving into the twisted details of the nastiest periods of human history, and whether this is a good or a bad thing. I guess i have a tendency, however much i am disgusted or horrified by the thought of something, to nonetheless want to know as much as possible about it; i appreciate not everyone is like that, so by all means let this thread die if so desired.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:17 / 01.10.07
My first draft of this post was a lot more bad-tempered.

We need to know the past, however horrific that past, in order to be able to even attempt to prevent its repetition in the future.

Thing is, need to know requires at least a desire to acquire, if not the possession of, knowledge. But, talking about the horrors of the widespread eugenic program across America, the historical evidence provided is:

That aside, the selective-breeding-in-slavery thing... I remember something in a book that I studied in school for English (probably at about 13/14). Unfortunately i can't remember the author or title, but it was a book by a female African-American author, (probably) aimed at a teenage audience and set in the segregation-era Southern US. There was a peripheral character who was very tall, strong and dark-skinned, and was referred to by another African-American character as being "from breeded stock" - there was then an explanation of selective breeding.


Which is fine, as far as it goes, but it doesn't really go very far.

Something like that being put in a novel obviously isn't evidence that deliberate selective breeding on slave plantations actually happened, but it's at least evidence that, among African-American communities in the Southern US, it's a familiar and plausible concept.

Fair enough, again. I think we can absolutely roll with the idea that some slave owners tried to get strong and/or docile slaves to breed. There's advice to that effect going back to Cato's treatise on household management. However, we can also say with confidence that these uncoordinated attempts at person-husbandry were, over ten or twelve generations, along with escaped slaves, unexpected pregnancies, genetic diversity, the siring of illegitimate children on slaves by sexual attack, utterly ineffectual. Which is why the original starter of this thread and others who joined him were advancing lazy racist bullshit - that a) you can breed Africans like whippets and that b) it transpires that, actually, all the young African-Americans who are "dominating" American sport are doing so not as a fraction of the many, many African-Americans who have no other options but to try, and in most cases fail, to make a living as athletes, having been excluded for financial or other reasons from education and other employment possibilities, but because African Americans have been bred to be good at sport by often semi-literate eighteenth and nineteenth-century plantation owners who happened also to be kick-ass geneticists able to effect changes in the physionomies of huge numbers of diverse peoples over a couple of centuries that would make Charles Cocking Xavier doff his hat, and as such all of these causes were handily located in the past - so, why do African Americans end up playing a lot of competitive sports? Poverty? State failure to provide decent education? Inability to get white-collar jobs, and an expectation of failure in such attempts? No - slavery. For that matter, breakdown of the nuclear family? Decades of discrimination, segregation, poverty, violence, inequality, throughout the twentieth century? No - slavery. Not to downplay the impact of slavery at all, but the way this makes the hideous inequality suffered by African Americans long after the emancipation proclamation an effect rather than a cause strikes me as unwise.

So, in terms of:

I guess i have a tendency, however much i am disgusted or horrified by the thought of something, to nonetheless want to know as much as possible about it

Groovy, but what would be good there would be historical record - folk history or written history describing the kind of attempts to "breed in" characteristics in other human beings - not on the assumption that this explains any great scientific truths about the physiological differences of Black Americans, but as a thing that is totally fucked up that people did to other people. However, this thread is a sump of wrong-headed inanity so far removed from any sort of sensible reality that even Barbelith's Mr Reasonable (tm) feels that it is appropriate to compare black people to fucking fish, the truths therein to uncover.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:39 / 01.10.07
Jesus fuck. Didn't we pound these goddam nails two years ago? WHY WON'T YOU STAY DEAD, YOU BASTARD? WHY WON'T YOU STAY DEAD?!?
 
 
Hydra vs Leviathan
23:08 / 01.10.07
so, why do African Americans end up playing a lot of competitive sports? Poverty? State failure to provide decent education? Inability to get white-collar jobs, and an expectation of failure in such attempts? No - slavery. For that matter, breakdown of the nuclear family? Decades of discrimination, segregation, poverty, violence, inequality, throughout the twentieth century? No - slavery. Not to downplay the impact of slavery at all, but the way this makes the hideous inequality suffered by African Americans long after the emancipation proclamation an effect rather than a cause strikes me as unwise.

Good point. I guess i tend to see the ongoing discrimination, segregation, poverty, violence, inequality, etc as a result and/or continuation of slavery and/or colonialism. Maybe it's because i'm so often frustrated by the number of people i know who just don't seem to even realise that slavery and colonialism ever happened, or think that they happened in some long-ago era (somewhere between 1066, Henry VIII's wives and the Romans fighting Asterix), that it's quite foregrounded in my head that slavery and colonialism were historically very recent, and they were the foundation of the political and economic status quo of today, and i tend to feel the need to remind people of that. Maybe in the US (i'm in the UK) it's more the other way round...
 
 
Jack Fear
01:21 / 02.10.07
See, though, therein also lies an assumption that's kinda squicky, nearly as squicky as the assumption that began this thread; an emphasis on the evils of slavery aned clonialism, and of white complicity in them, that tends to elide any notion of black agency at all.

At its worst, it leads to infantilization, regarding black folks as wholly reactive, as clay molded solely by the white hegemony—the idea that whatever the black man is, for good or for ill, he is because of the white man. Black man shows athletic prowess? Whitey gets the credit. Black man can't stay faithful? Whitey takes the blame.

Where's the black man himself in this equation? Is he actually doing anything, or is he just passively being acted upon by white folks?

Do you see where this might be unhelpful?

And can anybody explain to me why the sport of ice hockey is dominated by white Canadians of working-class background—remembering, of course, that Canada, too, was part of the colonial system?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:03 / 02.10.07
And can anybody explain to me why the sport of ice hockey is dominated by white Canadians of working-class background—remembering, of course, that Canada, too, was part of the colonial system?

Anybody who has ever been to Canada can explain that to you: because there is nothing else to do in Canada.

Apologies to Canada. Of course Canada has other things going for it, but I was attempting to drunkenly illustrate what I think Jack Fear is going for here (there's a lot of Canadians in the NHL because there is a shitload of Canadians trying to become professional hockey players). I'm sure someone will let it be known if I'm way off the mark here.
 
  

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