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Postal/email RPGs, fantasies and transgender

 
  

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Ganesh
05:23 / 06.07.05
For a good 10-year period from my mid-teens onwards, I was heavily into play-by-mail (PBM) gaming, a postal form of role-playing in which player and GM exchanged written 'turns' by good ol' fashioned snail mail. At its best, this was a wonderful hybrid of role-playing and creative writing (in fact, there was a move to rename it 'interactive fiction', particularly with the rise of email). As well as drooling, Pavlov-fashion, at the sound of the letter-box, I used to write for Flagship, the main hobby 'zine, attend conventions and spend hours on the 'phone to people with strange names and even stranger personalities.

One thing that used to intrigue me was people's tendency to enjoy playing the same character types again and again. In particular, I was interested in what motivated those people who always played characters of the opposite gender to their own. In some cases, this seemed to be a transparent ploy to get the GM to write dodgy 'adult' wish-fulfilment pap: busty blonde 'lesbian' warrior-women were, it seemed, a recurring motif.

Some people, however (and, inevitably, I can only think of males), seemed to choose opposite-gender characters for more complex reasons. By way of example, let me tell you about Ken...

I first encountered Ken in one of the long-running grandaddies of PBM, a straightforward swords 'n' sorcery romp called Saturnalia. I was playing *cringe* a naive young paladin-type (with leather armour and an increasing penchant for bondage); Ken was playing an abnormally intelligent 18-year-old thief with a petite build, long flowing hair and a name ending in 'a'. We both had extremely fast turnaround (the speed at which we replied to individual turns), so engaged in some mutual adventuring. It turned out he had at least three other Saturnalia PCs, of different professions, but all abnormally intelligent late-teens females with petite builds, long flowing hair and names ending in 'a'.

The PBM scene was relatively small, and many of us corresponded even outwith gaming turns. I had characters in a lot of role-playing PBMs, but it turned out Ken played even more: whether the genre was fantasy, space opera, cyberpunk, vampire, he maintained at least one PC in each game - and, you guessed it, every single one was an abnormally intelligent late-teens female with a petite build, long flowing hair and a name ending in 'a'.

Ken and I took to 'phoning each other, to coordinate specific actions in this or that game. To the pisstaking amusement of my fellow medical student flatmates, he would introduce himself as "Ken from Cybernation" or somesuch, in his comedically Croydon accent. It turned out he was a fortysomething IT worker, single, who really really liked PBM, and seemed to spend all his time creating and writing for a vast array of characters, all of which were abnormally intelligent, blah blah fishcakes.

Eventually, I attended one of the monthly London PMB meets, in a dank, depressing pub in a railway station somewhere, commuting down from, for fuck's sake, Aberdeen. Met a whole load of interesting-in-differently-geeky-ways people, including Ken, who looked and dressed like an accountant who hadn't quite made the grade: six foot five, rake-thin, incongruously almost-smart shirt and tie, waistcoat and anorak, glasses, side-parting. Seemed a nice enough guy if a little overexcitable. Incontrovertibly straight, he lived with his mother.

I used to attend these pubmeets every two, three months. During one such gap, Ken mentioned he'd got a new girlfriend (a surprise, as I hadn't imagined there had been an old girlfriend) called Antonia. Antonia was apparently quite the '80s club kid, and knew Boy George, Mark Moore, etc., etc. So far so Odd Couple. Anyway, Ken bragged that she'd helped him change his 'look', and the next time I saw him I wouldn't recognise him.

He wasn't kidding. In the space of four or five months, he'd gone from Failed Accountant Living With Mum to Short-Sighted Goth-Woman's Michael Hutchence. He was squeezed into perilously tight black leather trousers and matching waistcoat, floppy black poet shirt, Cuban heels, loooads of silver jewellery; his hair had grown out to past-the-collar length, and he'd subsituted contact lenses for his glasses. Antonia was a striking looking black girl from Sarf Lahndahn, not unreminiscent of Grace Jones, almost as tall as Ken. Loud, but nice.

More to the point, Ken had moved out of his mother's place, into a shared flat with Antonia ("Mum wasn't happy"). I visited a couple of times, once to see a Morrissey gig in Croydon, once because Ken offered to take me to Heaven (I'd just come out as gay, and wanted to see the superclub - an anticlimax). Despite successfully snagging himself a woman (making him the envy of many of his fellow geeks), Ken's PBMing continued unabated. One room of his flat was lined with bookshelves crammed with full box files, as well as numerous rather crappy drawings of curvy females with long flowing hair. By this stage, Ken's own hair was long and flowing, and taken to wearing stilletto-heeled thigh-boots a la Sigue Sigue Sputnik.

The night we went to Heaven must've been only a year or so after my father died. I was talking about how that had been the impetus for my reevaluating my sexuality and deciding to come out. I remember Ken muttered something along the lines of, "yeah, there's stuff I should look at too" - but, to my subsequent regret, I never probed further.

A couple of months later, and he was apparently falling out more and more frequently with Antonia. A couple of months after that, I 'phoned him and an unfamiliar voice, his brother, asked who I was, then told me Ken was dead. No details. Talking with a few other PBMers, it transpired that Ken had taken an overdose of analgesics. No-one was very clear whether this was deliberate or accidental (he had back problems, had a load of painkillers in the house, and drank moderately heavily).

I'm still undecided about the overdose, but I do think Ken was transsexual, and I think his primary mode of living as a female was through PBM - and, latterly (and perhaps paradoxically), gaining the confidence to begin dressing in unisex style through gaining a girlfriend. After his death, I became aware of other males who consistently played female characters, and wondered how many people use gaming - particularly remote forms of gaming - as an arena for the expression of and experimentation with gender. In many ways, PBM could be seen as the forerunner of MUDs and even message-boards...

Anyone come across this? Thoughts?
 
 
*
06:03 / 06.07.05
Yeah. Message-board gaming, before I started thinking about gender as a concept that applied to me at all, I consistently played characters of the opposite of my assigned gender. Eventually it got to the point where my partner said it bothered him-- he thought there was something "not right" about the consistency of it, and he couldn't imagine playing a female character himself. Still, it would be, oh, about four years before I'd figure it out.

I was just thinking about this today, and posted a similar question regarding playing differently-gendered or sexually-preferenced characters in roleplaying games. If I get any interesting stories and permission to repost said, I'll link to them in this thread.
 
 
sine
06:18 / 06.07.05
The chat version is so common it has become self-parody:

ironrod says - whose here tonite? wanna cyber?
hotxxxgirl says - i wancher kok bad bigg boy
darthnader says - me too me too
ironrod says - nader your gay
darthnader says - not you fag. what R U waring xxx? lets get room
hotxxxgirl says - i want you both. i'm doing you both right now
ironrod says - i'm two feet long
darthnader says - me too
ironrod says - i found her first fag!
darthnader says - your the fag fag
hotxxxgirl says - gotta go lover my dad needs the computer bye xo
hotxxxgirl has logged off

And of course, that's a lie. All three are men in their mid-thirties.

As for more in depth digital crossdressing: back in the days of grad school, when I went out to BC for a few months to visit some friends/lawyers-in-training, one old friend was simultaneously addicted to the new field of massively-multiplayer-online-roleplaying games.

Specificially, he was hooked on Asheron's Call. Now, I've never had the astoundingly large amount of time necessary to really try them, and they always struck me as not that interesting: one part videogame, one part accounting degree and one part chat room. I didn't see the appeal, especially compared to tabletop traditional gaming, but he was there, without a breath of a lie, at least ten hours a day, every day...and he played a woman. Not just a female character, though that too. No, he pretended that he was a woman off-line. He began to consciously emulate what he believed were the writing styles of girls, using more emoticons, exclamation points, etc, to do what he called "the real roleplaying".

So, as in any social activity, he made online friends, and one of them was a guy he started regularly adventuring with (Named, I believe: "Musashi"). And since I was staying with him in BC, I would oft times sit up at night while he was playing and I would read, and it was after a few weeks I began to realise that this friend who he was spending every night running around killing digital monsters with, this poor bastard who thought he was
a woman, was in love with him.

I tried to reason with him and make him see it. I tried to lay out the basis of the attraction. "I mean, what geek boy wouldn't fall for you?" I said. They had no barriers of physical attraction; he was never awkward or coy; they liked all the same things; he was smart, funny, ascerbic; the perfect geek tomboy, right? No, he said, no, you're wrong.

And then one day there was an awkward moment - perhaps - and he decided it might be best to abandon the persona and move on.

I imagine the day upon day that poor sad bastard Musashi must have logged on, hoping to see this woman, this friend that he had spent virtually every night for months travelling with, exploring with, fighting beside, working beside, trading with...I had watched them, they had spent hours just talking as they walked the hillsides on the way to some quest or to defend some ancient fort from the enemy...and then, one day, Musashi walked alone, stopping here and there in favored spots maybe to jump his character up on a rooftop and look around, see if he could spot her distinctive green sorceress robes in the crowds, and type/shout "Scylla? Scylla? Scylla?". He never came back. Scylla was erased. A clean break he said. It haunts me as one of the most callous things I've ever seen anyone do.

Strangely, he didn't learn his lesson. When he switched over to a different MMORPG game (Dark Age of Camelot), he played a woman again, one "Stella Maris", and this time, actually had the gall to found and run and all woman's guildhouse in the gameworld, one with some 200 members, called The Sisterhood. The Sisterhood became quite influential in its time, and was known, I understand, for instituting a number of the more progressive movements in the world, things that had nothing to do with hacking monsters or other players to bits: they staged plays, wrote chronicles, negotiated trade agreements between rival guilds, even officiated over in-game weddings. Somewhere, he still has screen shots of the holy union he sanctified as "Stella". But see, by this point, I was no longer fooled. I figured if he was doing it, he wasn't the only one. He disagreed. Then the s**t hit the fan; a sex-chat scandal exploded, where Sisterhood members had been using the game as an opportunity to slink off and have chat sex in-game, all unknown to their real-world spouses...and, in the course of clearing it up, LO and Behold! they were mostly men! Yes, men, pretending to be women! Shocking!

Freaked out by this turn of affairs, he resigned as head of the Order, and I think members shortly dissolved the Sisterhood. Soon thereafter he admitted he was an addict and had to stop. Still, three years later, he still sometimes opens his My Pictures and looks lovingly at the wedding photos.

There is zero doubt in my mind that this all serves as a low-impact, low-risk version of cross dressing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:54 / 06.07.05
But it's not _just_ cross-dressing, is it, because you get to believe that you're the only person doing it, no? You don't have the physiological complications either of concealing your own physical characteristics or ignoring or the mental ones of ignoring not just how your body looks and functions or how somebody else's does. So, one one level it's very distant, on another it's highly immersive, because the female body you are "occupying" follows exactly the rules of how a female body should function in that universe.

Sorry, that may be a bit obvious. Let me add crunch and flavour by quoting the ever-useful Deva:

I just have to say that I love Lara Croft. She's so strong and brave! She has lovely strong calves and makes little determined noises when she climbs up a ladder. She never gets tired, or gives up. She sees a big chasm with spikes over it, and just dusts her hands off and jumps over it. She's competent and skilful and brave and strong.

I mean, I used to hate her for all the T&A reasons other people have advanced. Then I got hooked on playing TombRaider and just fell in love with her. Now I just hate TombRaider for its massacre-of-black-people moments, really.

And just as I would argue that there is something more to my admiration of Lara than internalizing my own oppression - isn't there something more to the issue of cross-gendered identification in gaming than just 14yo boys looking at Lara's tits?


Whereas Ganesh is talking about somebody who, in his opinion, was actually clinically transgendered (if you see what I mean - 'Nesh, is this right? You feel he would have benefitted from exploring and possibly altering his actual, physical relationship to gender), Sentimentity is talking from a personal viewpoint about how being inside that functions, and Sine is representing instead a world where "playing female" is consequence-free; hir friend got the perks and then demanded the right to "kill" his female identity, when he got freaked out.

The case people generally come back to on this is Sanford Lewin, if only because it is early enough to have played out at a time when it was still unusual for people online to dissimulate like this. Is everyone familiar?
 
 
Tom Coates
10:05 / 06.07.05
Well I think we have to think about the various possibilities here - Gay men often use female characters so that they can flirt with straight men online more easily. And also there's clearly a distinction in real life between transvesticism and transexuality - and it's not obvious to me which one gaming avatars closely represents. I'm also interested in parallels with literature - when we read a book with a female protagonist with whom we happily identify for a few hundred pages, is that a tacit acceptance of our cross-gendered inclinations?

But certainly it's a fascinating area. I went to a conference a couple of weeks ago called Supernova in the States and went to a session led by Byron Reeves on MMORPGs. I wrote it up here: Byron Reeves on MMORPGs. He had some fascinating stuff to say after measuring mental 'arousal' (non-sexual stimulation) which he conflated with engagement / fun. Basically they tested a load of different people with the same games with different attributes turned on or off to see which bits had the most effect on people.

Turns out that understanding why you're doing something is really important, and that the more photorealistic the imagery, the more 'mirroring' went on in the minds of the participants. But from my perspective, the most interesting stuff was about identification and identity. He said that:

(1) The position of the camera (1st person vs. 3rd person) creates significant differents in arousal - with third person generating the greatest amounts
(2) People who were able to choose their own avatar in first or third-person games experienced more arousal / fun than those who had them randomly assigned

This is what I wrote about it on my site:

Which triggers all kinds of questions for me - how are the people using these avatars? Are they fantasy figures? Do they tend to resemble the person who chooses them? Do they resemble their real-life heroes? Are they idealised versions of a person's self-image or aspirations? Are they vehicles for the expressions of different paths or parts or attitudes of an individual? What does it mean to play an evil character? And what about playing cross-gendered or animalistic characters?

And this in turn makes me think about role-playing, cosplay, sexual game-playing, furries, transvesticism and a whole variety of other areas where an individual's identity is up for examination or articulation or expression. Which in turn leads you into other areas that are harder to study - reactions to novels, and characters in novels (for example). Is there a function of books that makes it easier to 'choose your own avatar' than a film? What kind of brain reactions do people get when they're watching a film or reading a book and relating to characters than they do when they're playing a game? In this space, the game could be an easily mutable and adaptable key for unlocking a whole range of experiences around identification, fantasy and role-playing. Awesome stuff.
 
 
Ganesh
12:15 / 06.07.05
Whereas Ganesh is talking about somebody who, in his opinion, was actually clinically transgendered (if you see what I mean - 'Nesh, is this right? You feel he would have benefitted from exploring and possibly altering his actual, physical relationship to gender)

Yes, that's right. Although it's not something that hit me until afterwards, I do think Ken was transgendered in the sense that he'd probably fit many of the criteria for transsexualism. I think he was probably more transsexual-lacking-in-confidence than tranvestite, although the female garments he chose were typically fetish-orientated. IMHO, he likely would've benefitted from going further in terms of physically exploring female gender roles, but I wonder whether - given the physical disparity between himself and the characters he always played - he'd ever have found a happy compromise. Perhaps for him, the gender-ambiguous Goth-in-stilettos (and corsets too - he had three or four corsets) was his compromise. Didn't seem to make him terribly happy, though.
 
 
*
15:21 / 06.07.05
I guess now's the time to break my personal disclosure policy to this point. The characters I was playing were male. I was female assigned, and hadn't questioned that at the time.

A little further detail-- the character I was most involved in was like me in most ways, except for gender. That is, not terribly physically capable, bookish, overly sensitive. Also, interestingly, he had a secret past-- just as I might were I successfully living as a man at the time. (not that secret pasts are terribly uncommon in roleplaying characters. I mean, he was also four thousand years old or summat, but that was more the game world and my fascination with ancient history.)

I think, looking back, that the characters I was playing back then were vehicles for questioning that couldn't go on at a conscious level yet. Further, they provided me with an opportunity to experience interacting as a man without having to go to the ridiculous lengths I would have needed to go to to pass back then, which would have involved creation of a persona which was greatly exaggerated and therefore would have distracted from the parts of the experience which were important to me.

So there's one example of FTM cross-roleplay. Also, no, I'm not familiar with the Lewin case; a google search turns up this and this for starters. The facts of the case are significantly different in these two papers, so anyone who can point me to something authoritative, it would be appreciated.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:46 / 06.07.05
There's a pretty good article by Rosanna Stone - I'll try to dig it up.
 
 
Quantum
09:53 / 19.07.05
They do say you only play characters you want to be or sleep with.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:59 / 19.07.05
Care to expand on that, Quants?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:15 / 19.07.05
The Stone* essay concerning Stanford Lewin is In Novel Conditions: The Cross-Dressing Psychiatrist which can be found in 'The War of Desire and Technology at the Close of The Mechanical Age'

I'd heartily recommend her work to anyone interested in how traditional gender relations are challenged by technology, it roolz.)

Oh, and while surfing I found this rather handy MA course outline for a course entitled Modern Prostheses: Writing, Technology and Transgender, which some interesting thoughts/sources.

(off-topical: just realised that it's taught at my old uni, which wasn't doing anything remotely that interesting when I was there. Bah!)

*this is me getting round the fact that I can never figure out quie what to call her, as she goes under various names: Sandy Stone, (Allucquere) Rosanna Stone etc... Listing the alternates for googleability )
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:24 / 19.07.05
Correcting myself on the last point, Stone makes use of/inhabits multiple personae, to which she assigns diffeerent names.
 
 
invisible_al
13:40 / 21.07.05
This has actually come up in conversation with some friends, in large LRP events (750+ people)there are normally at least one or two obvious transvestites in attendence from my own observations. And this is apart from some games where it's in-genre for women to pretending to be men and some women actually playing male characters (a fantasy napoleonic game).

I think LRP games are a safe space for this, along a lof of kinds of fetishism which blend a lot more into the background,. You wouldn't be able to separate leather, S&M or furry festishists from people just wearing costume at a lot of LRP games. It's a wondeful excuse for people to do their 'thing' in an enviroment where most people won't hassle them, or at least only hit them with a rubber sword before stealing their gold.
 
 
Quantum
16:32 / 21.07.05
Invisible Al, I've noticed the same thing- the overlap of LRP and TV/Fetishism- I agree it's a safe environment thing, also it's already a subculture that has an identity and is considered bizarre to many outsiders.

They do say you only play characters you want to be or sleep with. (Me)
GraciousMeme asked me to expand. I spent four years roleplaying two or three times a week, saw hundreds of people play thousands of roles, and it was obvious that most characters were thinly veiled alter egos, idealised fantasy figures ('I'm a deadly ninja assassin') of the same gender, or thinly veiled fantasy objects of the opposite gender ('I'm a stunningly attractive blonde vampire nymphomaniac'). For the het players at least.

It was such a truism it became a cliche, people play characters they either want to be or fuck- it's wish fulfilment, like dreams.
 
 
Spaniel
19:56 / 21.07.05
I once played a retarded goblin for months on end. I'm not sure I wanted to fuck him.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:34 / 22.07.05
That was only one of the two options presented.

For those unable to track down "The War of Desire and Technology", which also has a kick-ass article on Brenda Laurel, Stone (as Allucquere Rosanna Stone) has boshed together "In novel conditions" and "A rape in Oshkosh" as "Violation and Virtuality. Interesting excerpt for our discussion:

This left Lewin still stuck with the problem that he hadn't had the guts to solve. He decided to try another tack, one that might work even better from his point of view. Shortly, Joan began to introduce people to her new friend, Sanford Lewin, a New York psychiatrist. She was enormously gracious about it, if not downright pushy. To hear her tell it, Lewin was the greatest thing to hit a net since Star-Kist Tuna. She told them Lewin was absolutely wonderful, charming, graceful, intelligent, and eminently worthy of their most affectionate attention. Thus introduced, Lewin then began trying to make friends with Joan's friends himself.

He couldn't do it.

Sanford simply didn't have the personality to make friends easily online. Where Joan was freewheeling and jazzy, Sanford was subdued and shy. Joan was a confirmed atheist, an articulate firebrand of rationality, while Sanford was a devout conservative Jew. Joan smoked dope and occasionally got a bit drunk online; Sanford was, how shall we say, drug-free -- in fact, he was frightened of drugs -- and he restricted his drinking to a little Manischewitz on high holy days. And to complete the insult, Joan had fantastic luck with sex online, while when it came to erotics Sanford was an utterly hopeless klutz who didn't know a vagina from a virginal. In short, Sanford's Sanford persona was being defeated by his Joan persona.

What do you do when your imaginary playmate makes friends better than you do?


This seems to me, in a way, to be a deeper instantiation of a pretty common issue - women _are_ generally more exciting and more interesting than men online (because rare), still although to a decreasing extent, and certainly in RPGs and PBMs the gender balance was tilted heavily boywards when I was involved.

However, I think Stone is underplaying by the term "imaginary playmate"; she seems to want to draw a line there between "proper" MPD (Oshkosh) and the faux MPD of a Lewin, which I don't think is entirely fair.

Back to the RPG tie-in. "Allucquere" is a persona of Stone's with a role-play flavour - I forget offhand whether generated as part of a VTM campaign, but certainly very heavily in that White Wolf/Anne Rice style (Allucquere = Alucard. Do you see?) - which maybe comes back to Role-Playing as a way of dealing with transgender or multiple feelings in a controlled environment, and how that might then feed back into the RPG experience of people who are transgendered outside the field of their RPGing...

Incidentally, on the furry/fetish/leather aspect of RPG - RPG may be marginalised and clannish, but it's also _non-sexual_, or at least not sexualised, which may again be a way to deal with fur/fetish/leather/transgender inclinations without having to face up, either publicly or privately, to the idea that one is perverted, rather than just an enthusiastic hobbbyist. See also men "fooling" other men into having emotional or sexual relationships with them online in the guise of women, which brings us largely back...
 
 
The Falcon
00:20 / 24.07.05
Maybe it's just cause I've been reading Memories, Dreams, Reflections but this all seems very Anima/Animus kinda stuff - more former than latter, I guess.

Wee article, with helpful pics.

I can't really contribute much personally, having never PBM'd (I remember contemplating it, somewhere, somewhen, but it may have just been some kind've proto Fantasy Football.) Anyway, it's a read, Ganesh - as was your football bit, though both stories make me feel really quite sad.
 
 
Lord Morgue
22:51 / 24.07.05
My major RPG female was a yeti, but I think that had less to do with my desire to be 7ft tall and furry with big boobs than my desire to smash the living shit out of everyone I meet with a warhammer while misquoting Schwarznenegger.
 
 
Quantum
17:19 / 25.07.05
Um, just to be *absolutely clear* on this, it's largely the 2d paper-thin characters of those who take their roleplaying too seriously that fit the be/fuck schism. There's also the (minority) of characters that people play for fun (like a female Yeti for example). I myself often played Bob the one-eyed beggar, yet had no secret desire to poke out an eye and become homeless, or trawl under bridges for optically challenged sexual partners.

Boboss you are obviously in denial. Your depraved wish fulfilment fantasy lends itself to being a retarded goblin, so that you can fuck other goblins, thus neatly demonstrating both my points. Maybe you should become Gob-boss.
 
 
Ganesh
11:00 / 03.09.05
They do say you only play characters you want to be or sleep with.

Mmm. Presumably in the same way as one has sexual relationships with individuals one wants to be or sleep with.

I think this may be broadly true for that subset of (in my day, postal) RPGers who consider themselves 'serious role-players'; naturally, there exists a spectrum of tongue-in-cheekness. And, as with The Rocky Horror Show and TS/TVs, I'm sure there are those whose 'it's all a larf, innit?' attitude conceals deeper (conscious or unconscious) drives.

I remember a minor scandal, in those relatively innocent pre-Internet times, when a fortysomething housewife turned up on the doorstep of her twentysomething GM, having upped sticks, leaving husband and kids in a cloud of dust. It transpired that she'd been playing a female magic-user type who became involved with a demon NPC (written by the GM, obviously). The exchange of turns had gradually become more and more erotic in nature, apparently with something of a 'come, unsex me here' SM bent - culminating in an explicit 'demonic rape' scene - which must've been one hell of a piece of writing...

Anyway, angst all round. She wasn't the first or last PBMer to leave their partner on the strength of an apparently blossoming relationship perceived through mutually-constructed fiction. The online equivalent is familiar to the point of dreariness, but back then was, I think, the first time I realised the psychosexual scope and power of interactive fiction.
 
 
erisian
18:25 / 06.09.05
Er, in regards to the PBEM aspect of this post-

To all you more experienced PBEMers, what's a good place to start getting into some PBEM campaigns? I tried googling a bit, and mostly wound up at defunct sites, or could only find games that used rules I didn't know and found uninteresting.

Any advice?

In regards to the gender association aspect, I personally have only played male characters online. It's not that I have no interest in exploring female aspects of myself (and I believe that ALL roleplaying is about letting parts of your essential character that are somewhat neglected to the forefront in a fun way), but I don't think it's fair to give other people an impression of me that is so totally false.

Basically, if I played a female character and someone developed feelings for me based on it, I would feel incredibly guilty. So... analyze THAT!
 
 
*
21:36 / 07.09.05
Erisian, what if someone developed feelings for one of your male characters who was otherwise not much like you? Would you feel bad about that? Why is it different if the character is female? And why would it not work to just be explicit about the fact that you are (presumably) a guy playing a female character? Would it be different if you were playing a chronicle where the GM specifically asked that players play cross-gender characters?

Am just curious.
 
 
Lord Morgue
10:10 / 08.09.05
I'm not saying I wouldn't like to be/fuck someone 7ft with big boobs and fur, I'm just saying less than the hammer thing.
 
 
erisian
16:16 / 08.09.05
Erisian, what if someone developed feelings for one of your male characters who was otherwise not much like you?

Look at it this way: if I play a character who is smart, or self-contained, or sneaky or a liar or a coward or extremely femme or anything else, those are parts of me. On meeting me, I believe it'll be obvious where the traits my charactger has lie within my actual person.

One thing I will never, ever actually have is breasts and a vagina. That is a claim I can never convert from illusion to truth. I don't think that's fair to do to a person; if I were to tell everyone I met in whatever persistant online environment I was in that I was really a guy, it'd basically null out the moral problem *I* have, but it'd also probably detract from my RP fun (I try to avoid mixing OOC and IC because I know my roleplay does, in fact, suffer when I do) and it would be a hassle I don't want to deal with.

I'm not saying it's wrong to play a character with a different gender from yours, but I would feel guilty doing it myself, not because I'd be ashamed of playing a woman but because I don't like to think I might be... I dunno...
'leading anyone on'.
 
 
Ganesh
21:27 / 08.09.05
Erisian, doesn't that make all manner of assumptions about the people you're interacting with and the context you're interacting in - and, crucially, their ability to differentiate reality from fiction? I mean, I'm assuming you don't play any sort of non-human characters in case you're inadvertently playing cocktease to a dwarf-fancier or elfophile with fantasy/reality boundary issues?

Your particular line of reasoning also seems to take as read that encounters with other players will inexorably progress to Real Life meets without your having an opportunity to properly disabuse them of any notion that you are female. Presumably if a Real Life meeting did take place, the fact that it'd take place in (I'm assuming) the modern-day United Kingdom would provide sufficient clue that this isn't Middle Earth or Hyperborea or whatever, and therefore that 'character in PB(E)M' does not = 'self'. A Real Life meeting would also, one assumes, necessitate the use of your real name, which would provide further clues.

I'm having some difficulty seeing what possible situation could result in your being legitimately accused of 'leading 'em on'.
 
 
*
21:41 / 08.09.05
I think you're privileging gender over other kinds of characteristics upon which people might base an attraction, and I think that's an error. And I agree with Ganesh, it seems like you are not taking into account the idea that other people have, you know, free will and the ability to make their own decisions. You're not ultimately responsible for other people's failure to separate fantasy from reality, because you don't have the power to make them do that. Besides, who's to say you'd end up playing a female character compelling enough that someone would fall in lust? Play a female character who is not a sex object, how about. Think about female characters as something other than imaginary sex objects, how about.
 
 
erisian
23:27 / 08.09.05
At the risk of sounding totally arrogant, I have a history of people in online games developing, uh, feelings for me regardless of what I play. Case in point: my first experience with a long-lasting character was on a MUD: a 23 foot tall, butt ugly marsh giant barbarian, and the player of a female sprite (a 56 year old woman from California) developed a crush on him which carried over to me when I made the (mistake? choice?) of letting her know me OOC via e-mail and in-game messaging. It went to the point where I gave her my phone number, which I can only blame on the stupidity of youth, and then things got kind of messy. I was being pretty naive the whole time, I recognize in hindsight, to think that a person would make several long distance phone calls just cuz they wanted to be my friend.

Roughly the same thing has happened 4 other times, and they have all ended messily. Two times, it was men who wanted to get to know me better. All of these people seemed nice enough, but I felt bad because I had no interest in having a relationship like that with a digital transmission, and they all made it (to my eyes) clear that they did.

Considering I have been playing roleplaying games online for 8 years, I don't know if I'd consider that a good or bad average. Again, I'm not trying to present myself as a hearthrob or something. I am pretty bad at relationships in general because I like to have a lot of alone time. Here is what I believe is the cause:

A lot of people who play online games do it for escape. This is nothing new, it was mentioned many times earlier in this thread. Hell, a lot of times roleplaying has helped me center myself when I was really stressed. I think it's healthy to forget your problems for a little while and be someone else, as long as you have no problems differentiating between the two sets of behaviours.

Anyhow... there are a lot of very desperate people on the internet. And there are lots of obsessive people on the internet. I can't even begin to estimate percentages or anything like that, but I don't think it's unfair to say there are a lot of wierdos on the net. My aunt, for example, is one of them. She lives and dies for her online romances and I just totally do not get it.

There are also lots of brilliant awesome people, but this isn't about them.

My opinion, again, is that by playing a female character I would be increasing the chances of this type of thing happening to me. I don't think it's because I'm particularly special, but because I'm generally pretty friendly to basically anyone and willing to talk to pretty much anyone about things that they want to talk about. In person, this is only attractive to a certain point: if I don't make a conscious effort to be interesting, any conversation I have inevitably falls flat because I am only half in it. Online, however, I think the fact that certain people are very desperate and clingy combines with the fact that, when typing, one tends to think more about what they are saying, combines to make me seem more interesting than I really am.

Let me try to sum all this up: I am the type of person, I think, that certain types of lonely people have the capacity to become very attached to. I am very regretful any time this happens, because I generally do not reciprocate; it's almost impossible for me to be truly attracted to someone who's not right there with me. I think if I played a female character, regardless of appearance or personality, there would inevitably be some lonely guy out there who would fall for me and want things I can't ever, ever deliver.

Having been on the lonely end more than once in my life, I can't think of anything I'd want to inflict on someone less than the experience mentioned before: letting someone get to know my female character, get to really become attached to their character doing things with my character, developing what they perceive to be a serious relationship with my character (and me, by association) and then being faced with three things:

1) They try to get to know my IRL, find out everything they knew was a lie, and are probably hurt to some degree.

2) They continue living a lie, hopefully not but possibly to the exclusion of real relationships elsewhere.

3) Eventually I realize how they feel and, unable to live with it, I ditch the character and they are probably hurt to some degree. (I have yet to do this, yet, thank god, I would feel sick to my stomach to just ditch someone I'd 'known' for a length of time like that.)

I realize this might be an overzealous set of personal politics to have but I don't really care. I put a lot of effort into trying not to hurt people I've cultivated relationships with because... I don't know, I think it's important to have a network of people with whom you can trade limitless support, and being willing to harm people kind of goes against that.

Lastly: Other people can make whatever decisions they want about me, or in regards to me, but I don't think it's right for me to do things that might make it more likely for them to make choices that would be, in the long term, harmful, even if there's a very small chance. "Leading on" might be the wrong term, but I draw a pretty impassable line between exagerating and lying- if I play a tall, handsome elf man who has the voice of a songbird, or a big brutish giant barbarian who cracks good jokes, that's one thing. Those are traits of mine, exagerated or twisted. If I play a sinister drow matron or a honourable dwarven rogue, that is a lie. I have no female genitalia.

Anyhow, those're just MY personal politics for this issue.
 
 
Lord Morgue
08:39 / 09.09.05
My Yeti was totally a sex object.
But that's an honest character trait of mine.
Sexy man, I am!
 
 
*
17:02 / 09.09.05
Yes, but you also don't have fur and horns, or tentacles, or black skin and white hair. Why are you so attached to genitalia? What makes that different from any other "lie" about you that playing an interesting character might tell?

And why are you so attached to assigning gender on the basis of sex organs anyway? If it's the sex organs that matter, why not play a woman with a penis?

(What a convoluted character backstory that just occurred to me: A dying drow clan sees its last hope in an infant... who turns out to be male! Horrors! They raise hir as female to try to reclaim some social prestige, using magic to disguise her body... but zie a) rebels and looks for the spell that will reveal his true male form b) turns out to be good-aligned c) betrays the clan for political advantage d) is found out and cast out of the underdark.)

Obviously the reason why I'm still arguing with you about this is because I have a personal attachment to the notion that penis != man, vagina != woman, which you seem not to be able to take into account. Do you see how your equation of "playing crossgender character" = "lying" has implications for what you think about people who are transgender or who crossdress in real life? Do you think a trans woman is responsible for the actions of a straight man who falls for her only to react with disgust when she tells him her genitals look different than he expects? Do you see how this kind of thinking is a problem and needs to be challenged? Am I making too big an issue of this?

Also you seem to think all the people you have the potential to roleplay with are straight and male. I'm a gaymer, and I know women of all orientations who play PB(e)Ms— some of whom actually play male characters so they won't be picked on. Since you're such a babe magnet (pardon my mild expression of skepticism), what's to stop guys and women from falling for you already? You've already stated that it already happens, so I fail to see how limiting your character choices to those who have the same set of genitals as you helps the situation.

Also also just to clarify I don't care if you choose not to play female characters. It's just that I don't think the motives you've given make any fucking sense, and they bother me as a trans person, so I'm questioning them. You don't have to respond.
 
 
erisian
19:46 / 09.09.05
penis != man, vagina != woman

I agree with that, but I also think that penis = male and vagina = female. I am a male with some extremely feminine traits, but the fact that I have a penis makes me male, period. My heart goes out to anyone who feels that they were born with the wrong body; if I were given the option right now to magically turn myself into the person I'd be if I'd been born female, I'd probably do it and I might lead a happier life for it.

I have no interest in wearing womens clothing; I'd look ludicrous if I did, for one thing, what with me being 6'7" and all. But again, my heart goes out to any person who attempts such a type of feat, FOR WHATEVER reason, because they face a lot of hardships I'd imagine. But the fact is, if you have a penis, you are a male of the species. Period.

Anyone with an ounce of compassion or decency will let someone define their own gender role due to the sheer amount of difficulties inherent in trying to play a gender role that you don't think you're made to play. I use should in the moral sense when I say if someone seriously wants to say they are of a gender different from their obvious physical one, you SHOULD respect that and SHOULD treat them as such. But the fact, the sheer unadulterated fact, is that a woman trapped in a man's body, or vice versa, is still in a man or woman's body.

Many, approaching most, people, when getting into a relationship, wish for their partner to have the physical genitallia matching their given gender role. This isn't even a matter of right or wrong; there's nothing immoral about a person being attracted to the opposite sex anything more than there is about a person being attrached to a person of the same sex, or identifying themselves as members of a different sex. Attraction isn't a choice, but it is powerful, and I don't want to do anything that might foster it from people I don't really return said attraction to, and who would most likely feel deceived if they found out that they were attracted to someone with a penis.

MANY, approaching MOST RPG gamers are males. More of the population is not homosexual than is, correct? I think I am safe saying that at least have of the people playing online RPGs are straight and male. Why should I put myself in a position where half of the people I interact with have the chance to develop feelings for me?

I am a damn good roleplayer, when I apply myself. If I play a woman, I would do a DAMN fine job. And if there's one thing, more than anything else in this thread, I feel confident saying it is that no matter what woman you look at there are many men, somewhere, who would be attracted to her.

Do you see how your equation of "playing crossgender character" = "lying" has implications for what you think about people who are transgender or who crossdress in real life?

No, because I didn't say that playing crossgender characters IS lying, I said it feels like lying to ME. When I do it, it feels like I am lying to people. When other people do it, it does not feel like they are lying to me; I don't particularly care. It does not bother me if a man roleplays as a woman and flirts with me; I have a absolute and complete seperation of fiction vs. reality.

I don't see anything wrong with holding other people to different standards that you hold yourself to, so long as you adhere personally to BOTH sets of standards. In other words... there isn't anything I would judge another person for doin (that I can immediately think of, at least) that I wouldn't judge myself for, but there ARE things I think are wrong for me to do that I don't care if other people do.

Honestly, I think this is a case of you being just a little too defensive, no offense; it happens sometimes.

%Don't worry, we'll work through this!%

Do you think a trans woman is responsible for the actions of a straight man who falls for her only to react with disgust when she tells him her genitals look different than he expects?

That's a vague scenario, but unless the trans woman is deliberately acting to deceive a guy into getting involved with her than no, it's nobody's fault. That's just life. However, it's a situation that I, if I were trying to live my life as a woman, would work deliberately to avoid for a couple reasons (my unease with giving people a 'false' impression being one, my desire for people to know who I really am being another).

Do you see how this kind of thinking is a problem and needs to be challenged? Am I making too big an issue of this?

No, I don't see it. I think you are exagerrating this issue a bit, and I hope when you read this post you'll understand why I think that. I explained why I feel the way I do. Nothing about the way I think needs to be challenged, in my view. I'm not offended that you are or anything, but I know that I am, in fact, a decent person despite the opinions some other people on this forum have already formed (not aimed at you, firefly).

Since you're such a babe magnet (pardon my mild expression of skepticism), what's to stop guys and women from falling for you already?

Kinda a jackass thing to say, isn't it? I said specifically I'm not anything special. Lots of people on the internet are lonely and I'm custom made to make sad, lonely people want to talk to me because I listen to them. It's nothing more or less than that. Again, I'm not offended by your skepticism of me as a babe magnet because I'm not, but please don't act as if I am claiming things I am not. Certain people on the internet simply get very attached to me because I listen to what they have to say, and they just are not used to it. Period.

I am not especially attractive; I am simply less awkward, socially, than many of the people that roleplay. This is just a sad fact of gamer life.
 
 
*
06:17 / 10.09.05
Okay.
 
 
Lord Morgue
07:23 / 10.09.05
IT ROLLS THE DICE AND IT PUTS THE CHARACTER SHEET IN THE BASKET, OR IT GETS THE TARASQUE!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:59 / 10.09.05
Please be quiet, Morgue. If you'd like to start a thread about how role-playing helps you to be a more successful furry, then start it, but this one is about gender, and is actually rather interesting.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:17 / 10.09.05
Nothing about the way I think needs to be challenged, in my view.

In that case, dear boy, why bother talking to people? Is it just a sort of process of capital exchange, but with loneliness? Makes no sense.

However. Whereas the general principles a) somebody with a penis may not be a man, but is definitely male and b) if I am a transperson whose genitalia might not tally with the general expectation of those who have just met me, I might want to avoid getting my cock/absence of a cock out without a bit of warning are both not bad as first steps, they are a bit complex. There's a useful thread here about reactions to transgendered people in the sexual sphere, but there's a more complex question about what constitutes male and female and how those terms interact with "man" and "woman". Fausto-Sterling, author of Sexing the Body, has some interesting stuff on this:

In 1843 Levi Suydam, a 23-year-old resident of Salisbury, Connecticut, asked the town's board of selectmen to allow him to vote as a Whig in a hotly contested local election. The request raised a flurry of objections from the opposition party, for a reason that must be rare in the annals of American democracy: It was said that Suydam was "more female than male," and thus (since only men had the right to vote) should not be allowed to cast a ballot. The selectmen brought in a physician, one Dr. William Barry, to examine Suydam and settle the matter. Presumably, upon encountering a phallus and testicles, the good doctor declared the prospective voter male. With Suydam safely in their column, the Whigs won the election by a majority of one.

A few days later, however, Barry discovered that Suydam menstruated regularly and had a vaginal opening. Suydam had the narrow shoulders and broad hips characteristic of a female build, but occasionally "he" felt physical attractions to the "opposite" sex (by which "he" meant women). Furthermore, "his feminine propensities, such as fondness for gay colors, for pieces of calico, comparing and placing them together, and an aversion for bodily labor and an inability to perform the same, were remarked by many." (Note that this 19th-century doctor did not distinguish between "sex" and "gender." Thus he considered a fondness for piecing together swatches of calico just as telling as anatomy and physiology.)



These days, we might be persuaded that possession of a penis is more important than a fondness for calico when determining whether or not somebody is a man, but ultimately the categories are not perfect. They do not touch each other perfectly at the boundary points, and they are constructs based on apperception - one may meet a man and then discover somewhere down the line that that man is female, or indeed that the man would like not to be a man, but is stuffed because he also does not want to be a woman. And at this point he really has no other option; certainly ten years are so ago he had no other option. Now, although he is likely to be discriminated against, harrassed and struggle with official documents, he can decide to be neither male nor female, should he so desire. It's the destabilising of a binary.

But yes. So, the penis thing is a bit less clear-cut than you might first imagine - if, for example, somebody born without a penis gets one, does that make that person male from then on, or always-having-been-male, or female with a penis? I think we're still catching up on the science, in a way...

MANY, approaching MOST RPG gamers are males. More of the population is not homosexual than is, correct? I think I am safe saying that at least have of the people playing online RPGs are straight and male. Why should I put myself in a position where half of the people I interact with have the chance to develop feelings for me?


This is an interesting statement, as it seems to presume that feelings can only be developed for people you identify as being sexually attracted to. I think it's possible, in fact, that the world of gaming involves a lot of homosociality - the fact that the majority of gamers are male allows men to experience the comapny of men in a different way, which includes developing strong feelings which while never avowedly sexual are attempts to game, if you'll forgive the pun, what those who identify as heterosexual men are allowed to do with others who identify as heterosexual men.

Of course, there are layers and layers on this one - for example,your description pathologises those who become attracted to you online as needy and clingy, with you as guilty of nothing more than being approachable and sociable, but one might from another angle see you as needy in a different way - specifically, needing to feel attractive and interesting, and finding it easier to get these feelings by hanging around on game boards listening to people. But we're halfway to the Head Shop already on that one.

I confess that I don't entirely see the difference between playing a female character and playing a Marsh Giant character, in terms of examining different parts of oneself. Neither actually has either a penis or a vagina, for starters - the pixels don't go down that far. As such, neither of them is "male" or "female" in terms of the physionomic rule you've laid down, which I think does complicate issues a bit. However, there is an element whereby good role-playing demands that one is convincing, either as the possessor of a 23-foot body or as the possessor of a female (proximately) body. Whether that leads inevitably to greater attraction to largely straight-identifying men (albeit straight men who have actively sought out an environment where they can be confident of primarily interacting with straight-identifying men...) is a trickier question. That comes back to responsibilities to the other players and their characters...
 
 
Quantum
13:49 / 10.09.05
A friend of mine is a cross dresser, and in an online game played a female character, and pretended to be a female player. It was obviously the source of a similar thrill to the dressing up to do so, but not sexual I don't think.
He deliberately deceived several of our friends for months, and when it came out they were understandably miffed.
Their main response was 'Why?' I think, he was chuffed he'd managed to be such a convincing girl. In rpgs he didn't often play female characters, it was much more about people believing him to be a woman IRL than exploring that side of his personality. He's a happy het, so it wasn't for the sex, but for the pretending. Why? I don't understand the motivation of this or similar cases.
 
  

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