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Philip K Dick's visions

 
 
Darumesten's second variety
16:33 / 03.07.05
I don't know if this is the proper place for this post, but anyway .. Having read dick's books from the later days of his life regarding his religious experience ( Valis, The divine Invasion, Free Radio Albemuth ), just thought it would be interesting to know some opinions from the Temple .. Do you think these were just drug induced visions or did dick got in contact with something more real ? Was there something more than a psychotic episode there ??
 
 
This Sunday
18:26 / 03.07.05
I don't know that it has to be that either/or as binarism is usually a paranoid reflex more than a reasonable response. Of course, even if it were 'real' and not, oh, chemically motivated, that does not imply it was an honest experience or anything. Just because a giant fiery-eyed eagle with silver feathers and a halo of dancing showgirls in pink shifts shows up and tells you it is the greatest of all gods and should be worshipped by cutting off your hands... it's by no means certain that anything is says, or how it appears, is objectively or practically true. People get up on magic waves that go into my radiation box through tiny renewing lights and colors, telling me all sorts of things, but y'know, in the end you can just change the channel or tune it out.
Dick's drug use was much magnified and mythified, as well.
If you're asking, 'did Dick see God?' all I can come up with is, everybody's seeing God - but that's my 'God Is' cosmogony and not everyone's going to agree with the model, much less that it's real and extant.
 
 
Seth
22:07 / 03.07.05
Do you think these were just drug induced visions or did dick got in contact with something more real ?

Yes.
 
 
Nalyd Khezr Bey
14:24 / 04.07.05
"Yes" to which part of that question Seth? Both parts? Do you think that the drugs PKD was using, not LSD incidentally, at least not in the case of the 2/3/74 experiences, caused or triggered PKD to make contact with something "real" in an objective sense?
 
 
Darumesten's second variety
14:42 / 04.07.05
Dick also points in Valis that maybe the entity he got contact with was not god but a highly-evolved self .. Maybe this Valis entity was a projection of an inner gnosis ( the platonist anamnesis again ) ?? This direction appeals more to me ...
 
 
Charlie's Horse
17:15 / 04.07.05
Nice one, Seth. I agree.

In regard to the seeming confusion regarding that answer, can someone operationally explain to me the difference between a 'drug-induced vision' and 'something more real'? By 'operationally,' I mean more than just saying "Well, one is real, and one isn't," because that doesn't really answer the question. What do you mean by 'more real'?

If you experience something, particularly something of high value that makes one think about life, the universe, and everything (such as Dick's experience), then how does 'real vs. not really real' apply to that experience?
 
 
Darumesten's second variety
18:29 / 04.07.05
I see your point and kind of agree with it .. I guess I was just using "more real" refering to "existing outside dick's mind" ..
 
 
rising and revolving
19:40 / 04.07.05
Well, the difference in Dicks case is that he wasn't on drugs when he had his vision. He'd been clean for a while.

And in any case, his substantial drug abuse was amphetamine, rather than hallucinogen based. Now, he had dosed himself up on mega-quantities of vitamins (after reading an article in Omni, if I remember correctly) - is it possible that the vitamins caused the hallucination? Seems terribly unlikely, given I don't think I've ever heard of anyone having a similar experience...

As for the nature of the event? It was clearly a vision of a pretty substantial fashion. Substantial enough to kill his cat, in any case - which is pretty serious.

There's no real point saying that Dick thought it was contact from "A highly evolved self," or God, or a Russian Spy Sattelite, or the past, or John the Baptist, or Stanislaw Lem - because he pretty much held all of these opinions at one point or another.

However, reading his letters makes it clear that he held these impressions in a very loose fashion - he was happy to consider any of them, but more as models to try and give some meaning to a genuinely transcendent event which could not be approached in any rational fashion.

So, was it a real contact experience? In my opinion, almost certainly. It has the multi-dimensionality that to me is a sign of the real thing.
 
 
Ganesh
22:15 / 04.07.05
Perhaps worth adding that heavy, repeated amphetamine use can produce a chronic psychotic state essentially indistinguishable from schizophrenia (ie. including delusions, hallucinations, thought disorder, etc.). It may persist for some considerable time after amphetamines are stopped, and in some cases, it may be permanent.

Just summat else to throw into the mix.
 
 
Darumesten's second variety
22:20 / 04.07.05
or a Russian Spy Sattelite, or the past, or John the Baptist, or Stanislaw Lem

This reminds me of reading an interview to Lem where he said he wrote Dick inviting to visit him and apparently Dick thought there was an organization called L.E.M trying to catch him or something like that .. probably a joke, just sounds funny ..
 
 
Quantum
09:37 / 05.07.05
'just drug induced visions or did dick got in contact with something more real ?'

(Aside from the problems of 1) defining what's real 2) distinguishing between magic and other altered states and 3) the whole binary ontology etc.)
Something more real. Remember discovering his son's illness, kitty-death etc? External, consensually verifiable events inexplicable by resorting to the 'just tripping' explanation.
 
 
unsubscribe
09:48 / 05.07.05
93,

I'd put Dick in the schlock sci-fi junkpile and then I read Valis.

Incredible brave book.

What makes it for me is that Dick is so utterly human.
He is really wrestling with the event and what it means.
This tallies with my own Gnostic experiences.
It is also reminiscent of Crowley's complex experience of Aiwass. A man? An Angel? His Angel? The spirit of the age? His higher self?

For me Dick asks:
How can we process this kind of experience after the fact?

I have found that in a baseline state it is probably impossible to answer, all we can do is apply 'best-fit' models as PKD did.

That's what I take from it and then use it as a spur to get on with my own undoing.

Thanks for the thread, must drag it off the shelf and re-read.

Will
Love

Peter Grey
 
 
LVX23
18:45 / 05.07.05
Do you think these were just drug induced visions or did dick got in contact with something more real ? Was there something more than a psychotic episode there ??

Why don't you ask him yourself?

FWIW, my understanding is that Dick ate a lot more speed than acid.
 
 
Ganesh
20:59 / 05.07.05
As I've pointed out, amphetamines can also cause psychosis.
 
 
Darumesten's second variety
22:07 / 05.07.05
Checked this Dick-android thing, just plain crazy !! Love it, it's a pitty I won't get to talk to dick's robotic-self ..
 
 
Seth
23:19 / 05.07.05
S'ok 'Nesh. I read your post.

What useful things can be learned from Dick's experiences?
 
 
gravitybitch
01:08 / 06.07.05
Useful things?

One can get more mileage out of such an experience by being open to re-interpreting it...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:08 / 06.07.05
From reading Sutin's "Divine Invasions" (well worth a read if you can trackl down a copy- I believe it's currently out of print) the speed had definitely fucked with his head (or possibly had just not helped an existing mental state- sorry for the vague terms, 'nesh!)- way before '74 he was becoming intensely paranoid (there's even speculation that he was nuts enough to blow up his own living room and claim it was the CIA).

But but but... whether this brought on the Valis experiences or not, it's impossible to say. I like the way he also took this view, being perfectly prepared to simultaneously believe he was being contacted AND that he'd gone bonkers.
 
 
Quantum
11:17 / 06.07.05
What useful things can be learned from Dick's experiences?

Weird things happen
Weird things happen on drugs
Drugs aren't a sufficient explanation for the weirdness
Our models of reality are not comprehensive

Also that our interpretation of inexplicable events can in and of itself be a useful experience, leading to a more flexible and accurate worldview where there's not always one right answer, one 'truth'.

(And maybe not to eat too much speed for fear of being reincarnated as a paranoid robot head)
 
 
KING FELIX
11:41 / 06.07.05
He was on some pain relievers as he had had a wisdom tooth removed, either sodium pentathol or Codein, accounts varies, when he had his first vision.
 
 
h3r
01:25 / 09.07.05
just drug induced visions or did dick got in contact with something more real ? Was there something more than a psychotic episode there ??

I'll have to answer this with a G.M. quote from the filth:
“So what if God chose to show his face in the form of a seizure in the brains’ left temporal lobe, it is still God. “


and IMHO: it was real. didnt u read his stuff? that speaks for itself.

btw, i love the robot idea, thnx for the link LVX
 
  
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