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Need help w Doggie Training [PIC]

  
 
ibis the being
23:22 / 18.06.05


That there's my little Russell. He's a wild man but a total sweetheart too. Prior to getting him I read every dog book I could get my hands on (about 6 or 7) but nothing in them seems to cover this rather specific problem, so I really hope there's a Barbelite who can save me.

I've been making a concerted effort to socialize Russell (who's 8wks old) properly, exposing him to a lot of other people and dogs, and also not allowing him to chew anything other than his toys, especially not people. I know some folks think it's cute & harmless when puppies bite, but I want to raise a dog that gets along with everyone and with whom I never have to worry that he's going to hurt a child or have to be put down bc he bit someone.

I have good friends who also got a puppy a couple of months ago - he's now 16wks (and significantly bigger than Russell). They've been anxiously awaiting Russell's arrival so that our dogs can play together, but being especially fearful of diseases, they haven't socialized their pup with any other dogs since they got him almost two months ago.

Turns out our dogs just fight and fight and fight and NEVER STOP. They think this is okay and normal puppy play but I notice that Russell gets really aggressive, which he does not do in any other situation. To my eyes R is trying to establish dominance but the other pup doesn't get it and just continually provokes him. The first couple times they were together I really didn't like it but feared offending my friends or seeming too uptight.

So today we took them to the park together and they fought as usual, though there was more space to get away from each other and run around. But I noticed that for the rest of the evening during my playtime with Russell at home he played much more aggressively, seemed to want to dominate me, and wound up giving me a painful bite on the calf.

Am I wrong in thinking that Russell's "friend" is teaching him to be too agressive in play, and that these two dogs shouldn't play together, at least until the other one's been socialized better? And if I'm not wrong, is there any way to tell my friends without totally offending them?
 
 
Olulabelle
23:33 / 18.06.05
Ibis

It's not your friend's puppy's fault that Russell is aggressive after playing with him. Their puppy is just doing normal play things and soon will get over it.

When you get home with Russell his automatic dog behaviour is to try and dominate you - that's what puppies do, they try and find their place in the pack. Talking to your friend about their dog is not the way to fix the problem, the issue is that Russell wants to be further up in the pack than you naturally. It's in a dog's best interest to be 'top dog'. You've been doing the right thing by socialising him, but I don't think you should stop him from playing with your friends dog. What you have to do is remind him of the rules when he's at home with you. Then when he plays with other dogs he can still try and be top dog with them, but he'll learn that at home in the pack with you, you are.

Things to do to ensure your dog is not top:
1/Always make sure every other member of the family goes through a door first. Make Russell wait.
2/Don't feed him before you feed yourself.
3/Make him wait for his food.
4/Take his dog toys away after playtime and make sure he sees you do this. The toys need to live on a shelf or somewhere he knows but cannot reach.
5/Never feed him from the table.

It's nothing to do with your how your friend is training their own dog, it's normal and natural for your dog to want to challenge other dogs. But if you want him to behave at home after he has played, you have to make sure he understands that you are in charge.
 
 
ibis the being
01:56 / 19.06.05
Well, I'm already doing all of those things. I spend a lot of time with Russell and like I said I've read training guides like a maniac, so I work with him a lot on behavior and following my direction.

Admittedly, I'm becoming a bit of a control freak about the training... but it's frustrating to have a young puppy when every time a friend or someone comes over they seem to undo what I've worked on all day. "Sure, he can bite my hands, I don't care," playing tug of war, teasing him with his toys, etc. It's perhaps the hardest thing, for me anyway, to manage integrating other people into my fairly tightly controlled training process.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
04:53 / 19.06.05
What are you training him to be, a pussy?
 
 
hoatzin
08:03 / 19.06.05
Fighting is what puppies do! It's how they learn boundaries with other dogs.
If your puppy bites you hard, yell or scream loud enough to startle, and turn away from him. I expect you know this already.
Playing tug-of -war is a great game, and a valuable precursor to commands such as 'hold', 'fetch', and 'give'. Please don't discourage him from this game. I agree there is a fine line between teasing and playing with a toy, but yelling if hurt and stopping play has always worked with puppies I have known!
Remember he is only a baby, and most dogs stay lary to some degree at least until 2. Some are like it all their lives, and spaniels in particular are very lively.
Have you any more pictures of him?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:53 / 19.06.05
Ibis,

It's not pretty, admittedly, and you certainly don't need to go too far with this, or anything, but, as the owner of a young dog, what you're basically involved in is a power struggle, as to who in fact is the dominant pack animal. Denying Russell treats is only going to get you so far -Don't be afraid to beat the little tyke up ( in an obviously minor violence kind of way - a light cuff to the back, that type of thing, ) if he misbehaves. It's really the only way he's ever going to 'respect your authoritah,' which is what, initially, the relationship is all about.

Dogs not being a part of the liberal, humanist world.
 
 
ibis the being
14:11 / 19.06.05
What are you training him to be, a pussy?

Ha ha.
When I was a kid, we got a puppy and my parents had no idea how to train her, nor did they make any real attempt to. She wound up biting a neighbor when she (the dog) was a year old, and had to be put down. It was pretty traumatizing for me, & I'd kind of like to avoid a repeat of that incident. So, sorry for being a little bit of a nervous nelly.

Playing tug-of -war is a great game, and a valuable precursor to commands such as 'hold', 'fetch', and 'give'. Please don't discourage him from this game.

Don't be afraid to beat the little tyke up ( in an obviously minor violence kind of way - a light cuff to the back, that type of thing,)

Well, see, but everything I've read in training manuals disagrees with both of the above statements. Trainers now say tug-of-war encourages aggressive behavior, and physical discipline only teaches the dog that I can't be trusted.

Remember he is only a baby, and most dogs stay lary to some degree at least until 2. Some are like it all their lives, and spaniels in particular are very lively.

Yeah, you're right. I was just kind of wound up about it yesterday because he bit me hard enough to draw blood and it freaked me out. I just don't want to have to give him away or put him down, ever.

Have you any more pictures of him?

Do I...



  
 
Olulabelle
23:05 / 19.06.05
Ibis, I think Alex was joking about the violence thing. If you hit your dog - even with a 'light cuff', he will become scared of you. You'll definitely be 'top dog' but he won't be your friend.

I really think that reading too many dog training manuals can be more of a hindrance than a help. They have conficting advice and they're often written by breeders rather than pet owners.

I agree with the Rubbish King. If Russell bites you, yelp loudly like another puppy would in order to let him know you've been hurt, and then turn away from him or don't play with him for a few minutes.

I think you might be being a litlle over-zealous and regimented with the training process; however hard you try he's not ever going to make his own bed when he gets up in the morning. If your friends come round and let him bite their hand then, unless they're there every minute of the day it's probably OK. Maybe you can look at it as 'time out'. I think Russell will still know it's not generally acceptable. If they are there every day then you need to tell them how to behave with him. But other puppies? That's what they're supposed to do. Stopping him from rough and tumbling with other puppies is like stopping little children from rushing round in the playground.

If you turn into a real Sergeant Major about it he may behave exactly as you want him to at first, but a few years down the line he'll be neurotic, he won't ever play with you and he won't be the lovely lively dog you seem to have now.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:11 / 19.06.05
I'm with Lula on this one. I was terrified when my little one used to fight as a puppy... it's quite a wrench to actually convince yourself that it's what they do, and it's fun, cos sometimes it can look quite hectic.

But yes, more pictures! There can never be enough puppy pictures. I WANT A PUPPY, DAMMIT.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
23:19 / 19.06.05
I saw a TV program once where a farmer described how he stopped his sheep-dogs from chasing car wheels as youngsters (I know, it's not quite the same, but bear with me; you might be able to adopt a similar technique). He said that he would simply hold them firmly by the back of the neck (but not violetly, i.e. think Momma dog), then push their nose to a sationary car wheel for a good while, and growl really loudly and angrilly. i.e. you don't always have to smack them, try showing them your TEETH.

Hope that helps.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
23:30 / 19.06.05
Also, if you get a sore throat from growling like a bitch, I remember reading ages ago about a similar technique using a high pitched hand alarm (i.e. like a rape alarm). However. I've always thought that was a little too harsh as dogs have such a powerful and sensitive sense of hearing.
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
08:20 / 20.06.05
I have a lot of experience with dog training and aggressive behaviour disorders in said dogs. Sometimes all the training in the world will not keep a dog tame and docile but it certainly helps.
After a vigorous play I would recommend bringing Russell home, in through the door behind all the humans, and straight into a crate(are you crate training? best ever method for many many reasons) for a "time out" for at least half an hour. Russell can calm his nerves, rest, observe the humans doing things he's not involved in directly and generally settle down. Then Russell should come out for a meal etc.
Neutering will also help but I realize many people don't love this idea. Works better for males than females.
Tug of war games are the very worst thing to allow an aggressive/dominant natured pup to do. And if you allow it, you must not let Russell win, ever.
Also, do chill out a bit. My favouite dog trainers always admonished me for neurotic control freakishness and reminded me that dog training is really dog owner training all the time.
Lastly, may I suggest you remember all the things you learn from your puppy experience because one day if you have a human child, all you learn now will come in handy, especially the rule about "ignore bad behaviour, reward good". Children and puppies are identical.
Don't forget to enjoy!
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
08:27 / 20.06.05
Forgot to say that I think it would be helpful if you instructed your visitors to ignore Russell for 5 minutes or so on arrival then have them call him over for a little petting but don't be afraid to tell them your rules about his play. If you let him do the chewing/jumping/tugging/etc. aggressive antics with strangers now, this will translate into a rule of fair hunting non household members as he matures. One of my friends has a notice up beside her front door of instructions to visitors on how to react to her crazy dog. The 1st rule being to ignore him utterly until she says it's ok to respond.
 
 
hoatzin
08:41 / 20.06.05
Those pictures are lovely. Thanks.
I was gobsmacked when you said trainers don't like tug-of-war games- but when I looked at pictures of what they mean I'd have to agree. However, with a little one like yours you are always in control, and most puppies like it so much they will do it without any training or persuasion. This means that you have the upper hand, and the puppy will quickly learn that pulling the toy away from you, running off with it, and refusing to give it up, simply mean the end of the game. Most will quickly learn to bring it to you for more! My dogs are not natural 'holders', and I have always used the game with puppies to encourage them to keep hold of something.
Russell will probably have spaniel instincts and it may be that your problem is
stopping him from 'holding'. I always have trouble with teaching a puppy to bring something right back to my hand, not just drop it nearby, and the tug-of-war game has been the intermediate step [where I have succeeded, of course!].
It would be a great shame to keep him from other puppies, they are hilarious to watch together. And try not to worry about him- he's lovely and doing exactly what he should be doing!
 
 
ibis the being
10:58 / 20.06.05
After a vigorous play I would recommend bringing Russell home, in through the door behind all the humans, and straight into a crate(are you crate training? best ever method for many many reasons) for a "time out" for at least half an hour. Russell can calm his nerves, rest, observe the humans doing things he's not involved in directly and generally settle down. Then Russell should come out for a meal etc.

Yes, we are crate training. That thing is a godsend, I don't know what we'd do without it... probably spend our lives cleaning pee off the floor.... So we have started putting him in a "time out" if he gets too aggressive, ie biting HARD or growling while nipping at us.

Lula, you're right about the books - I've just read too much. It's like browsing the web to self-diagnose a flu - the info just makes you think if anything at all is wrong you might as well kill yourself now.

Russell will probably have spaniel instincts and it may be that your problem is
stopping him from 'holding'. I always have trouble with teaching a puppy to bring something right back to my hand, not just drop it nearby, and the tug-of-war game has been the intermediate step [where I have succeeded, of course!].

He does have spaniel instincts, it's amazing. From the first day we brought him home he would fetch a ball and bring it back to us (when he's in the mood, of course).

I swear I'm not acting in real life quite as insane as I sound in this thread! He's actually doing wonderful, generally, and we're having the best time with him. We took him to see my family for Father's Day yesterday, including my three young (9,4,1) sisters. We briefed my 9-yr-old sister, who's a huge animal lover, on the rules (don't let him bite your hands, clap really loud to startle him out of chewing your clothing). They were great together. He did manage to nip her leg a bit through the course of the day, but not enough to hurt. And we totally supervised him w the younger ones.

He seems to know to be gentle with strangers and especially children, which makes me think that he's just playing rough with us and not destined to be a biter. Those books, though, man - they literally say that ANY growling during play is a serious problem and you're going to have a "mean dog" if you don't cure him RIGHT NOW.

So, for all your help, another treat -

 
 
bitchiekittie
12:37 / 20.06.05
because I've never had or even temporarily babysat for a dog, I've got no advice for you, but I wanted to say that he's absolutely, almost painfully adorable.
 
 
William Sack
13:36 / 20.06.05
Again, nothing practical here. I have never had a dog of my own, but grew up with several daft setters, none of whom ever got beyond toilet training. I just wanted to say that Russell looks good enough to eat, and I love his little white goatee beard.
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
05:29 / 22.06.05
Just to make myself clear, what I meant was that after any play session, not just one where Russell acts aggressive, but after any "returning home" time, Russell should have a time out in his crate. Remember, the crate gives him security, because it is his own space. When he's older, you'll notice him go into it of his own accord to chill out.
O yeah, I think I forgot to say how cute I think he is. So sweet and looks like he's growing fast!
 
 
grant
17:34 / 22.06.05
Those books, though, man - they literally say that ANY growling during play is a serious problem and you're going to have a "mean dog" if you don't cure him RIGHT NOW.


I think those dog books are messed up.

I've heard (from Calling All Pets, a source I trust) that even belly rubbing is a dominance behavior -- submissive, "lower" dogs are the ones who offer their vulnerable underparts to the top dog.

And if the dog nips you (or otherwise acts offensively, even if it's not physically painful), I've also heard the best thing you can do is say "OW!" really loudly and look very shocked and hurt. Dogs are generally very eager to please.
 
 
■
23:33 / 22.06.05
ODB is growing into one kick-ass doggy.
Anyway, I thought I might weigh in with a little of my experience. The only time I have EVER hit a dog (and I mean really smacked hard on the rump) was when our latest took off across the road at full tilt after a cat. I chased her for a good minute before I caught her as she had momentarily paused looking for my approval (ten yards short of the next main road). I slapped her (nothing that would have caused any damage, I'm sure - she's a really fat dog) and shouted "bad dog" before dragging her home. Perhaps it's because my parents haven't disciplined her well (they wouldn't dream of such an outburst, and nor would I, normally) but she was such a horrible mess of eager-to-please and shit-scared that I hardly recognised her for a day or two. That was a year ago and I still feel guilty about it, but she apparently hasn't tried anything like it since. It was nasty, but effective. Sometimes, maybe, in extremis, physical reminders of what might happen if they don't follow the rules can be a good idea. I'd hate to think how much more a car going at 40mph would have hurt her.
However, anyone who touches that bundle of fur up there without a really good reason has me to answer to.

(Oooh, btw, a long time ago I learned a good tip to stop dogs biting things. If you need them to let go of something, put your hand over the top of their nose so you can very gently push the side of their upper lips towards their upper row of teeth. They don't like the idea of even the suggestion of biting their own mouths so they let go of whatever they are biting.)
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
07:35 / 23.06.05
Allegedly, extreme dog trainers dicipline bad behaviour by sharply pinching the pooches ear. Symbolizes the mother nipping puppies earwise to discourage them from offense. I love the idea that only rewarding good behaviour is enough but come on, it isn't. However, dogs do hate to be ignored and/or banished so those are effective punishments as well.
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
07:39 / 23.06.05
A very very good dog trainer's contact info:
waynehi@hotmail.com
1-800- A Good Dog
 
 
---
07:56 / 23.06.05
hug it! please give it a loving hug from Xyu.
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:25 / 30.06.05
All in all very good input. I have 2 HUGE dogs (about 100lbs each)

Ziggee (left; the pup) Petra (right; the moma)

I tell you I am so greatful to have focused so much attention on the first one PETRA. The second (her now grown up pup) is a bit more "care free," more of a dog's dog but no less lovelable.

Just look at what he looked like at 4 weeks.

From the sounds of things I'd guess that Russel might also be teathing. Has he dropped his puppy teeth? Those are the sharp painful ones!

Out of fear of having huge dogs I couldn't control, I'll admit to having "cuffed" them. This took the form of a tap to the nose with my index & middle finger. It tought them to let go of anything they had and over time just pointing to their nose with a loud "no" was enough.

In terms of play and dominance I'd suggest you take advantage of your size. Again teaching him the "leave it" or "drop it" command will alwasy be of help. If he's forgetting it, which is likely at his age, grab hold of him, turn him on his back (exposing his neck & belly)and again a strong "No." If need mock the motion of biting his neck... moving your head down towards his (exposed) neck and instead of biting saying the "NO."

I've seen this method turn a hyper dog around 180ยบ

IMO the key in "disciplining" your dog is reminding them of their status beneath you.

At times while Ziggee was growing he was quite the biter. I found that it was effective to actually let him bit my hand but then to grab hold of the upper half of his muzzle. In effect letting him bit my hand with my plam up so as to close my fingers and thumb around his nose. One he let's go (he always did for me) I would hold him for a moment longer to establish who's in control. Of course after a moment to 2 more he'd attempt to shake me off, the key is to let go before that moment... hold on just long enough for him to realise "it's not worth it" to bite.

Ziggee still likes to roughhouse and the play between the Petra & he is still hilarious sometimes they can get very loud and worked up and this can be disturbing to others who may not know they are Moma & pup. Sometimes it's a matter of wading into the swirling mass of DOG and just simmering them down.


now if can only get Ziggee to stop humping cut little blonde dogs . . .
 
 
■
20:34 / 30.06.05
now if can only get Ziggee to stop humping cut little blonde dogs . . .

Sheesh, he got something against Gentiles?
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:28 / 30.06.05
He just loves the Blondes... 2 of his littermates where blonde and they used to beat on him something bad. I think it's a sort of revenge instinct. But he loves 'em... he gets this crazy look in his eye and mounts and thumpa thumpa thumpa the dog can run off and he'll still be standing there humping thin air.

it drives my girlfriend CRAZY!!!


Ziggee


beta (aka Walter)


Harly


Pluga (the only female)

pics taken at 10 days of age.
 
 
ibis the being
23:46 / 01.07.05
Aw, cute little pups!

In terms of play and dominance I'd suggest you take advantage of your size. Again teaching him the "leave it" or "drop it" command will alwasy be of help. If he's forgetting it, which is likely at his age, grab hold of him, turn him on his back (exposing his neck & belly)and again a strong "No." If need mock the motion of biting his neck... moving your head down towards his (exposed) neck and instead of biting saying the "NO."

I actually started doing something very much like this when Russell gets too bitey with me. He is still so little, I can easily and gently roll him to the ground, hold his muzzle and say NO, and I kind of hold him there for just a short moment. Then I walk away and stop playing.

But I think the bottom line is he just has sooo much energy to burn, when he gets rough like that it seems like he's being a little too bossy in telling me he needs exercise. So I've been taking him on longer walks in the evening, hopefully to the dog park if I have the time. That really does the trick in burning off that excess energy.

I really don't want to sound like everything's a challenge, when actually I am having so much fun with the little monster. He's so funny and cute. He's very smart, too, and already knows to sit for treats and will sit on command for his dinner or to go in/out a door.

Here he is all bedraggled-looking after a bath --

  
 
ibis the being
11:39 / 05.07.05
Update!

In the last couple of weeks we've brought Russell out & about to several new situations, gatherings, traveling, parties, the dog park, etc. He's done absolutely wondeful with strangers, children, and other dogs of all stripes. In the dog park he seems to totally understand which dogs he can tussle with in a friendly way, and to which he should show the submissive belly. He's even shared toys and treats with other dogs.

Then last night we brought him round our friends' place again. And our dogs went at it. This time it was clear, the other dog was just endlessly playful, while Russell was trying to dominate, nip, bark, basically defeat him and send him away. Someone gave R one of the other pup's bones and R promptly went into psycho territorial mode about it, which he's never done before. Nothing seemed to deter the other (bigger) puppy's enthusiasm to keep playing, and he took R's hostility as all part of the game. But honestly it was plain to see R was not playing. Unfortunately I think Russell just doesn't like his would-be best friend! I suppose it happens in the dog world as in the human world.

They both start Puppy Kindegarten this week so hopefully that might help, but we may just not be able to have them together....
 
 
Mr Tricks
15:30 / 05.07.05
cute cute cute...

I forgot to mention how valuable tiring a puppy out can be. Also it may be useful to make sure that tussling with other dogs is not his only source for an extreme workout. Longer walks, hikes (after all of the vaccines) even a run on a bike or whatever.

It sounds like in some cases you might have to take bones/toys out of the equasion if he gets too "attached" to them when socializing with other pups.
 
  
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