Barbelith Underground > Temple > RT: The Psychology of Magic

quote:Originally posted by Dr. Vital:
Currently I believe that psychology is, for the most part, a delusional fantasies designed to give bored human minds names for things that we have made up so they can follow those scripts and be messed up according to an overall plan. I don't mean that people aren't hurting, but I also believe that no one was truly bi-polar before there was a bi-polar to be...

This is a truly wonderful theory. I don't mean wonderful in the sense of necessarily true (although it has a ring of truth to it), just wonderful in how beautifully it sticks its middle finger up at the way we understand psychology. Seriously: I'd love to hear the opinion of someone who's studied psychology (I'm looking at you, Ganesh). What's your background, Vital? Is Dr the correct term, or should I address you as Mr?

quote:Originally posted by Dr. Vital:
Now I'm a happy mutant, changing the world in real time, and making the impossible happen just for fun.

So when was it that you bought wholesale into your own mythology? Or is this just a flashy board face you're showing everyone?

quote:Originally posted by Dr. Vital:
What you believe is a filter for all your experiences of the world.
Change your beliefs change your experience of reality

That's true, to an extent that you have to recognise its possible long-term implications. I know a great many people that have modified their beliefs to the extent that they have no real grounding in reality, and so their experience of reality is highly questionable. I think some of us would site a couple of examples from Greenland. But then, a lot of people would question me and my beliefs in that respect. Is there an acceptable baseline for this beyond societal conventions, or is it all relative? How useful are such societal conventions? Is their only purpose to condition us to live in a certain way (control)? Whatever answer you have, it's hard to deny that we're not very good at taking care of those that slip through the gaps.

quote:Originally posted by Dr. Vital:
So far the only disadvantage seems to be that there's just too much to take it all in a single lifetime.

There's another disadvantage. You may never know the joy of walking a path that isn't yours (ie; not created by you, but right for you nonetheless) for your entire life, mastering skills and abilities and training that you would never encounter on your own. You may never stand still for a decade, puzzling over intricate mysteries before you are ready to set another foot out on your journey. It's too easy to ignore difficulty by simply changing one's perspective and shooting off down another road. Although you do sound very happy with the path you've taken.

One of the things my magical background has given me is patience, and an ability to handle frustration and tension. Frustration is part of having a prophetic heritage (you can see further and so become dissatisfied with the present), and you go under pretty quick if you can't deal with it. Tension is not a sign that things aren't working: it's a sign that something is happening (ie: my arm is in tension when it is active). Patience is a skill of peace, learned under intense pressure and pain. Very often, my circumstances are the exact opposite of what I know to be true. In those situations, I don't change the belief. I work through the circumstances like a puzzle.

My point is: sometimes there are easy answers, sometimes there aren't. My background has made me a puzzle addict, a doubt addict, someone who questions everything (including myself). I like to ponder minutiae for weeks until I've dragged out revelation from its depths. Maybe I'm just a boring bastard.

quote:Originally posted by Dr. Vital:
I've not reached the point where I've grown comfortable enough with my methodology that I can easily defend myself a world of people who wish that magick would just go away so they could on with the business of figuring out just how right and mundane the world really is if only people would accept the fact that we can know everything.

Why defend yourself? Surely expressing love towards those people is the best way of meeting them at their level. Maybe they'd benefit from a bit of magic in their lives.

quote:Originally posted by cusm:
the line between change done because of magickal or spiritual pursuits and change done for other reasons is difficult to draw

Agreed. In some ways I'm reticent to draw the line at all (he says, demolishing the premise of his own thread. Bear with me!). It could depend on how all encompassing your belief system is, making all things magical in origin. Or it could be that you see no difference in quality between those things that are seen as "magical" in nature and those that aren't. Personally, I see no dividing line between what is "supernatural" and what is "natural." It's all part of the same amazing world.

quote:Originally posted by cusm:
For this, I managed to confess of any lie or dishonesty I maintained to those close to me, and made amends to cease any interpersonal conflicts that were still outstanding with people. I cannot describe the joy of knowing your slate is finally clean.

Wow. Complete atonement would take me ages, considering I'm the most imperfect person I know! Luckily, I don't have any outstanding interpersonal conflicts (that I know of or that I can fix). How did these people respond? Did you do this for purely personal, self spring-cleaning purposes, or were you concerned with their lives becoming right as well (in blunt terms: was it a selfless or selfish action)?

quote:Originally posted by cusm:
quality of life and happiness is more important than success

Sounds more taoist than hedonist. I had some uncomfortable anger problems from finding out what my friends have been up to since leaving school (government think-tanks, doctors, etc) and what they though of me and my accomplishments. I agree that quality of life and happiness are paramount over success in the eyes of others. However, success at the tasks I value and set for myself is another matter.

quote:Originally posted by cusm:
This one led to a purely magickal exercise, where I decided I no longer wanted to be limited by gender

Is a defined sexual preference or orientation a limitation? Subject for another thread? Or has it been done to death in the Headshop?

quote:Originally posted by ab-synth-etic:
But I can't help feeling that no matter how much change occurs I again find myself back where I started. Or just plain impatient about wanting immediate results.

There's no reason why you have to subscribe to wanting instantaneous change. "Life on tap, on demand" is one of the peculiar tenets of the world many of us live in, but there's no reason why we have to adopt it ourselves.

quote:Originally posted by ab-synth-etic:
Its basically a paradox. It (magic) seems to contain within it the ability for boundless freedom and expression. But I feel that those traits or experience is either fleeting or constantly out of reach.

That's one of the most honest and touching admissions I've read on Barbelith. I think the key word may be "seems." Magic not just a world of wonder and possibility. It's also dirty, sacrificial, backbreaking work that makes life messy and dangerous and inconvenient. Life can be both (often simultaneously) regardless of whether you subscribe to magical practices or not. To quote the Princess Bride, "Anyone who says differently is selling something."

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan and kobol strom:
--- Exhaustive list of previous magical practices ---

Good Lord! And there's lil' ol' me with just one!

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
mostly I practice shamanism. The reason for that was because

1) I don't really think I had a choice

I know the feeling. I have free will, but I've gone through a period of turning my back on my path, and I know what it is to run from what is my basic nature. Shit, now I sound like Worf.

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
2) It involved actually doing it with and for other people.

That external human contact (and the increased stakes) suddenly changed the nature of what 'magic' is about for me.

No amount of 'magical power' is any more or less important than anybody using whatever skills they have to reach out and touch another's life.

Now this is where I reckon the rewards of magical practice are, and you're right: they're exactly the same as the rewards of non-magical practice. I found myself cheering when I read your post.

Nothing beats the feeling of having prophetic insight that may benefit someone, spending hours judging and weighing the revelation, checking and refining and filtering to ensure it rings 100% true, finding the best way of formatting the content, shitting yourself as you deliver what you have, and then seeing the real impact it has on someone's life.

Serving others with whatever gifts you have is not work: it's a privilege.

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
A lot of my old friends don't understand what I'm doing since I've 'come out of the closet'

Tell me about it. I just love the feeling of having a childhood friend calling me a cunt because I won't get drunk with him. We're good friends again now.

I have lost one very valued friend though. I think the change in my lifestyle reinforced his hatred of Christians (although I don't know what I did wrong: I felt I did everything I could to maintain the friendship) and was one of the prime factors in his decision to become a Satanist (I don't know this for sure, but it's my best guess from the way he's treated me). Maybe he resented one of his friends changing so much. I don't know. I really miss him. Jack the Bodiless: if you're reading this, you'll know who I'm talking about. Am I being too hard on myself? Did I do something I wasn't aware of?

quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:
Also, there's the whole 'service to the spirits' thing. I'm not entirely 'free' in the choices I make.

For better or worse though, the damn spirits force you to face your shit.

This is my only disagreement with your post, Lothar. I would have placed that in the "advantages" category.

Service is an amazing thing, whether it's to higher beings, different beings, or human beings. My Dad has a beautifully involved theology about cycles of service (in a nutshell: in the Church, you only get promoted to new and deeper levels of service, from servant, to steward, to bond slave. For example, when demons approached the apostles, they addressed them as "Bond Slaves of the Most High God," a term of fear and respect). The sheer depth of relationship, trust, love and understanding it promotes are incredible. Not only that, but your spiritual authority grows paradoxically in inverse proportion to your stewardship. Quite simply, I can be involved in intercessions, prophecy and healing with my drums in a far more powerful ways because I bent my gifts under authority for the better part of a decade. My skill base is broader and sharper, and people know I can be trusted to work to the full extent of my power.

That could be seen as a fairly controversial post, especially on this board. To qualify the statement, I don't mean serving all authority, all the time.

quote:Originally posted by kobol strom:
Magickal awareness has taught me patience,and its taught me how to listen. Luckily there are spirits here,and over there,whose patience is even greater.

Patience and an ability to listen are two of the best things ever, IMHO.

quote:Originally posted by kobol strom:
The only negative I would say,is that the strictures which our race has set in place on our hearts and minds,which limit our horizons in an effort to explain the world and keep us safe,have outlived their usefulness.

Are these the only reasons we impose structure? Do we impose all structure? Are patterns in reality only there to the observer?

Oh, to anyone who's been wondering why the thread didn't move after three days of no posts: I forgot to e-mail Tom or Lionheart. Oops.

It moves tomorrow. Sorry for messing up my own experiment!

Am I late to the party?

How have your Magickal experiences and beliefs effected you as a person?

{From Oxford American Desk Dictionary:
Both affect and effect are verbs and nouns, but only effect is common as a noun, usually meaning 'a result, consequence, impression, etc.'…As verbs they are used differently. Affect means 'to produce an effect upon', e.g. "Smoking during pregnancy can affect the baby's development." Effect means 'to bring about', e.g. The negotiators effected an agreement despite many difficulties."}

I include this not to nitpick about grammar, but to explain how I intend to answer the question. Magick did indeed "bring me about"; had I never learned of it or practiced it, I would not exist in this particular form and perspective. Indeed, concerning my family history of alcoholism and abuse, I would certainly be dead by now.

The most important life lesson I've learned from Magick is staying open to different opinions and perspectives. (It's a lesson I never stop learning, in fact, because there's so much diversity in the world.) When I started in 1985 I worked with Neo-Pagan Witchcraft because I was drawn to the emphasis on eclecticism – it was okay to worship different gods in different ways. I was (still am!) exhilarated by the variety of polytheism, how different cultures take a particular type of energy and express it in so many different ways. It's also a humbling experience, because in learning that there is no one right true & only way to believe in divinity, I also realized that my way ( whatever way that is) isn't the best for everyone, just for me. Neo-Paganism as I practice it is not a proselytizing religion.

Before 1985 my thought patterns were extremely narrow, bitter and constricted due to personal pain and past circumstances. Magick helps me approach life in a flexible and accommodating manner.

Have you worked with several different systems and methodologies? If so, which did you settle on and why (inference: why did you reject the others)?

My interest in polytheism has been lifelong. I was exposed to Greek, Egyptian and Scandinavian mythology from an early age. (I still remember the Tutankhamen exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art from 1977.

) During high school I took a class on Irish Literature & Culture and was introduced to the intricate yet powerful world of Celtic mythology (both Gaelic & Brythonic). There are members of my family who practice Santeria, so I do have an awareness of it; I respect the orishas but do not work with them.

The idea that I have "rejected" certain paths to embrace others feels weird in my gut; I'm not sure if that's applicable to me. All Magickal systems & methodologies, in my mind, stem from the same divine impulse. It's difficult to explain, but let me try by giving an example.

I find an incredible amount of beauty and (necessary!) discipline in Ceremonial Magick. I really enjoy using ceremonial methods to facilitate interaction with various types of deities. As a framework, it's extremely effective.

But the vast majority of information one finds on Ceremonial Magick has been written by Caucasian upper-middle class men who lived during the Victorian or Edwardian eras, and their writings reflect their attitudes. During the past 16 years I have come across many a Ceremonial Magickian who really hates to be reminded that the 19th century is over and phallocentric monotheistic duality just doesn't cut the mustard the way it did 100 years ago! (Hence my seething irritation when an unsuspecting Barbelither posts to the Magick about "high" magic and "low" magic. And I've been NICE: in the flesh, I've sent grown men away in tears

with arguments on the matter of "high" and "low", as well as the "Women are passive and natural mediums" bugaboo.)

So in dealing with Ceremonial I work with the form and structure but jettison other aspects of it. Does that mean I've "rejected" it? Or left it behind? I have come across many similar attitudes in Neo-Pagan Witchcraft despite the greater emphasis of female deity in certain circles. (Anyone for a Polarity Check? ) But I can't say I've "rejected" Witchcraft either…if hard pressed to define myself, I would still call myself a Pagan (and whether I like it or not, all my friends still call me a Witch).

Are there any advantages or disadvantages to the system you currently work with?

When I started I worked pretty exclusively with female aspects of divinity, because it gave me a sense of balance and proportion that, as an adolescent and survivor of the Catholic School experience (very strange, as my parents were not Catholic…), I sorely needed at the time. As time went on I began to understand that energy has no gender, and I was more open to whatever needed to come through. (This got me kicked out of many a Womyn's Spirituality coven for "bringing male energy into the space".)

Now I work mostly with Dionysian and Hermetic energies. These energies have been filtered by various cultures in different ways: Shiva, Osiris and Dionysos are three different filters for the same type of energy, so an interaction with each god will bring out a different aspect of that same energy. Kali, Anath and the Morrígan are similar examples using another type of energy.

I think a disadvantage of my path is that I really tend to disregard gender stereotypes and expectations, not so much on an intellectual level but as gut instinct. That really freaks people out. I'm not easily categorized as either "girly" or "butch", and the inability to pigeonhole has alienated some people from me. A nice example: I was once in a mixed-gender Wiccan coven where the high priest attempted to call down Bran the Blessed. Bran is one of my all-time favorite deities, I tend to work with him a lot on my own time, then as now. So when Bran came down, he came through me and not the high priest. It was an incredible experience but I got kicked out of the coven.

Have these things affected you in any ways you'll admit are negative? If so, how did you deal with that? Has the negative experience helped you overall?

Not sure if this will answer the question, but it seems the best place to bring up one of the most important aspects of my work (to me).

Alcoholism runs deeply in my family. Most of the relatives on my paternal side of the family are alcoholics and get extremely aggressive when drunk. I suffered a great deal as a child because of this, and the experiences have no doubt colored my personality.

Working with Dionysian energy currents forces me to face and accept the part that my family history plays in my life. In so doing I refuse to fear alcohol, nor do I demonize it as so many children of alcoholic parents tend to do. I consider alcohol an ally in my work and respect its power; I am all too aware of what it can do to those who disrespect and abuse it.

So I do partake of the grape and the grain. I drink first and foremost for pleasure, and in honor of the gods. I do not imbibe in order to forget my troubles, escape from mundane reality or to feed unconscious cravings and habits. And I don't need it; I've gone weeks and months without a drop of booze in my system. (unlike my aunt/landlady, who cannot go for 12 hours without cracking open at least two bottles of Merlot.) I bless every fucking drink I have, precisely because I don't crave it. Magick works!

I guess a negative aspect is that most people are so quick to perceive alcohol as this bad, naughty, sinful, dangerous thing that it seems at best ludicrous, at worst insane, to even suggest it has Magickal significance, let alone usefulness. (That perception of alcohol may be more of an American mindset; ye olde Puritan Ethic cropping up.) So I get loads of flak from people, especially recovering alcoholics and twelve-steppers, about how someone with my genetic predisposition shouldn't drink at all.

(I recall a recent party at a friend's house where everyone was drinking mineral water and white wine, and I was drinking Jack Daniels. I was cornered by this twelve-stepper and she ranted and raved about the evils of alcohol. By the time I finished my fourth Jack & Coke, she was practically frothing at the mouth, making a scene, yelling "THAT SHIT IS GOING TO KILL YOU!!!"

I responded, "Would you like some of mine?"

and she ran out of the apartment cursing me to seven shades of hell. Ten years sober 0, fifteen years Magickal 1 – because this time I didn't get kicked out!)

Despite the difficulties I've encountered the past 16 years, I'm very commited to the work I do. Other folks have mentioned the aspect of helping others – I think I tend to do this in more of a quiet, subtle manner. By simply being the freak that I am, people who encounter me have to think a little harder about how and why they see the world the way they do. Staying open to different opinions and perspectives is a two-way situation: I learn from others as they (hopefully) learn from me.

Hope this helps.

[ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]