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The Player and The Played

 
 
iamus
16:44 / 15.06.05
Games today are becoming increasingly more complex, offering gameworlds that are capable of interacting with themselves to get results nearly as surprising as those the player can create. AI is coming on in leaps and bounds, is it time to re-examine the relationship between the gamers and their games? As an example of memetic life, what is it that we get from interacting with our games and what is it that they get from us? How close are we to creating games that can play themselves for amusement and what can they teach us about the way we interact with our own world?
 
 
Char Aina
08:46 / 20.06.05
i cant imagine a world in which we give up on participating in the games, unless you mean systems clashing for our amusement.
perhaps a film that changed every time you watched might be a laudable aim for progarammers.
you could have a 'game' being played rather than a prerecorded sequence of events to make things more exciting.

what if neo hadnt taken that leap?
what if ben hur had lost?
what if ben stiller's starsky had blown his brains out in the interrogation room?

it would certainly make movies more watchable if they were different every time, if the heroes occasionally failed and had to live with the consequences.
would it make them better, though?
would people want to watch someting they couldnt gyuarantee was going to be any good, and over which they had no control?

i have no idea.
i presonally wouldnt enjoy a game that played itself but then i'm a control freak.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:09 / 20.06.05
What do games get from our playing them? Well, they exist, they are used, I suppose. But as software isn't alive it doesn't really require anything, does it?
 
 
Char Aina
13:38 / 20.06.05
yeah.
that bit seems a bit temple.
 
 
iamus
13:51 / 20.06.05
Or potentially Head Shop.

I do have a post in the works to tackle this and give the first post some context, but it'll need a bit of drafting.
 
 
Char Aina
14:13 / 20.06.05
what are your thoughts on the idea of movies filled with scenes that are being played out in front of you?
would you enjoy that?
i personally like unpredictable movies, but i'm smart enough to know the value of a tightly paced script.
perhaps if the AI was more akin to actors on a stage than players in a game it might be a richer experience.
for all that anything can happen in theatre, quite often what does happen is the play that is meant to.

dunno.
most of this is fairly unexamined.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:41 / 20.06.05
As I said in another thread, often movies work because exactly what you see happening happens. To change things would potentially ruin it. Yes, it might be fun to watch a version of e.g. Alien where you don't know what's going to happen next- but surely the film's effect comes from seeing exactly what we do see in the exact order that we do see it?

And surely, first time we watch a film, we don't know what's going to happen? Imagine if you'd been there when Star Wars first opened. Is a film only valued once, or do rewatches count?
 
 
Char Aina
08:15 / 21.06.05
much of the effect comes from the tension, sure. tension which wouldnt bethere if the pacing was different, sure.
but that's movies.
this wouldnt be movies, and the narrative tricks and traits wouldnt be the same at all.
it wouldnt be an y use for telling a story of one man triumphing over seemingly insurmountable odds either. i mean, what if he didnt?
what you would be watching would be more free form, more like a balanced reality show.
you would have parameters of behaviour, i guess.
i see it not as the story of m.X so much as the personality of m.X being demonstrated repeatedly and in varying ways.

you would be buying into the character, not the plot.
 
 
semioticrobotic
01:50 / 22.08.06
What do games get from our playing them? Well, they exist, they are used, I suppose. But as software isn't alive it doesn't really require anything, does it?

Just finished parts of Galloway's book, Gaming: Essays on Algorithmic Culture in researching for my thesis, and remembered this thread. I was sad to find it all the way on the forum's last page, as iamus's brainchild definitely deserved a longer run.

In something of an answer to Lega's question, I might recommend reading at least the first chapter of Galloway's text. This book is the first I've come across that accounts for the entire gaming apparatus when positing a model for videogame study. It does this by granting a certain degree of autonomy to the videogame (the "machine"), and coming at it from a Deleuzean/process philosophy sort of angle.

As videogames for Galloway are all action, all motion, then "diegetic machine acts," ambient moments when "the game is still present, but play is absent." The machine is on but the operator is away. Galloway talks about Shenmue, wherein trees stir, the sun rises and sets, etc., even when the player is away. It is "the inverse of pressing pause." (Galloway would consider pressing pause a non-diegetic operator act.)

"Nondiegetic machine acts" include things such as powerups, high scores, and "game overs" or "death acts" -- the moment when the machine stops accepting operator input. This also includes system crashes and lag.

It's really a brilliant model. Anyone else read this?
 
 
Olulabelle
21:19 / 29.08.06
Bryan, thanks for bringing this up again.

Characters in games do have some levels of initiative, or set processes to follow though, which means one could say that they do have some sort of life surely? I mean, if a character can make choices, surely the choices it might make are its own decision? What about the creatures in Black and White? They can be 'taught things and they certainly make their own choices.

Watching characters make their own choices or carry out behaviour is interesting, although I do agree with Toksik that 'just' wantching wouldn't be entirely satisfying.
 
 
iamus
00:20 / 30.08.06
Did I really not get back to this one? My first post wasn't exactly the best, I'll admit and I had intended to flesh it out, I think I've gotten better at actually saying what I mean since then though. tokisk did a fair job of trying to bring it out a bit anyhow.

Bear in mind here that I'm good at the old brain-spew, not so hot on the definitive point-making.

it would certainly make movies more watchable if they were different every time, if the heroes occasionally failed and had to live with the consequences.
would it make them better, though?


Firstly, I think that's a prime difference between a movie and a game. In that a movie is exactly the same in the playing every time. That doesn't mean it's not interactive, it's just that the two media offer different forms of interaction.

The way a movie changes is in the way it's experienced by the viewer. You may see things you previously missed, get the meaning of parts you didn't before, it may seem longer or shorter. The film itself plays out the same way though. Taking the same amount of time, every time. But to the viewer, it's a different film every time you watch it, because of the circumstances it's viewed in.

The film interacts with us, but we do not interact with it. The same is true with most traditional forms of music, as music and film are essentially very similar. Both are time-based, narrative art-forms.

Games are different. They follow the same rules as above, but there's another level of interaction. When you interact with a video-game you also affect the way it interacts with itself, and a form of communication takes place. This is more true of some games than it is of others, but it applies at a basic level to even the most linear of games.

Black and White was an example I was going to cite. GTA was another. Both of these games have at least two forms of play. There's the straight-ahead "narrative" play, and there's the sideways "sandbox" play. It's the second of these two that we're really interested in though.

Narrative play absolutely, totally requires the player. It's a group of pre-set goals that the player has to coax the gameworld through, like conducting an Orchestra. All the different elements of the gameworld have to be guided in such a way that they work in harmony with each other to play the right tune. Like training your monster and villagers to work together gathering food. Or using your jetpack to dodge bullets, take out baddies and collect an item.

This won't happen unless a concerted effort is made to make it happen.



When each of the individual gameworld mechanics are coherent enough by themselves they hang together and form Sandbox Play as a byproduct. Although Sandbox Play can be found in many games if you look for it, GTA and B+W are developed with it very much in mind. It's a main selling-point of the game experience.

The creature is undoubtedly the reason that Black and White exists, and zhe does so as a secondary mode of interaction to the player. You already have the hand, with which you can do pretty much anything the creature can. But the fun in playing with the creature is in watching the gameworld interact with itself.

The creature is not the player. It is as little and as much of an element of the game as a hut or the sun rising and setting. But unlike the rest of the game it observes how you interact with the world, it learns, and then it interacts of it's own accord.

Devoid of player input it'll potter about, try using things with other things, aquire likes or dislikes and generally learn how the gameworld interacts with itself. It does this for no reason except that it's curious and it can.

GTA doesn't have a learning feature like that, but works on the inverse-pause principle that Bryan mentions above. The player is never really safe, or out of the action. Stand still long enough and fights will break out (whether they involve you or not), reckless drivers will plow your feet out from under you, planes might even fall from the sky and crush you.


Okay....ummmm.... let's see....

As well as this though.... when you play a game like this (i.e. not stepping outside it by pausing and the like) you effectively become part of that game also. The controller reads your physical actions and converts them into gameplay elements. Your avatar (and by that token your actions) are as much a part of the gameworld as that Creature, that hut or that Sun. Your avatar needs his own processing power and rules and boundries and is as much at the whim of the world as anything else there. The player-character may have certain advantages over the other agents, but that's still true.

From a certain point of view, the game plays itself. Obviously true in the example of Black and White, but even true when it comes to the player. To the game, the player-input is just a slightly different way of generating its internal behaviours.

You have the imaginative interaction with the game, exactly the same as you do with film or music. But you also have the communicative interaction, which is informed by the imaginative, but filtered and bound by the mechanics of the game.


Right. Like I said, that's not in any way a definitive point I was trying to make (because I'm not even sure if it makes total sense), but I'm going to stop there and see if anyone wants to pick up on any of that.
 
  
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