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eastern vs. western magic

14:27 / 14.10.01

this might seem kind of stupid but could anyone tell me the diffeence between western and eastern magic and/or magical systems.

20:04 / 14.10.01

I'm not even sure that there is a very clear difference. It seems as though the major western magicians have been heavily influenced by non-western cultures. I'd probably call chaos magic a western magic because it was developed by westerners, and tantra eastern because it was developed by easterners. Witchcraft/Wicca seems pretty western. "Shamanism" was defined as a practise in Siberia, so it shoudl be eastern, but so many westerners have used the term loosely that many people calling themselves shamans today are probably practising some kind of western magic.

Frances Farmer

20:55 / 14.10.01

And if you want to talk about Taoism, there isn't a literal, active magick to it. More a passive one. Of course, this is all interpretive, but what I get from it is this:

The less you attempt to actively pursue magick, change in the world, etc, and the more appreciation you cultivate for such things - as in a willingness to just watch the universe do it's work - the more magick just begins to happen around you.

In fact, it's happening all the time. Of it's own accord. Of the Tao, and of the concious, and of the subconcious. What you think literally, immediately, constantly affects the world around you - and not just in the obvious causal manner.

So, really, by this system, you don't learn how to perform magick, you learn how to let magick perform itself. Magick is constantly happening. Those who practice and work to recognize it perform rituals as a catalyst for the perception of something that could've - and perhaps, would've (given the right state of mind) happen entirely on it's own.

But, I digress.

13:39 / 15.10.01

What exactly do you mean by 'eastern'? That term covers a lot of cultures, countries, religions, and folk practices. I'm not sure the similarities and differences between the 'west' and 'east' are that different than the those between cultures within those two regions themselves. False dualities.

15:09 / 15.10.01

Frances, Taoism comes in many many flavors.

two examples that I, an ignorant caucasian, can think of: the internal alchemy school which Mantak Chia for example has taught in the English-speaking world as well as traditional folk magic.

one more note that shamans come from Siberia but shamanism comes from many places if you accept the concept and the term.

an amerindian named Gary Bowen wrote on his website that he does not like the word shaman used in reference to their people for that reason.

[ 15-10-2001: Message edited by: Ria ]

16:26 / 15.10.01

I agree with Lothar in that "east" and "west" need to be more clearly defined in order to get anywhere near an answer to that question. I mean I could tell you that practicing Magick in New York City is a hell of a lot different from practicing Magick in San Francisco, but you know...

ps: I agree about the "false dualities" as well. It's all good.

17:11 / 15.10.01

i would think that the terms eastern and western when used in that context would of course denote eastern and western civilization. and while the duality drawn is false from many perspectives, by using the word "civilization" the duality is inherent-politically, socially and economicaly. the eastern and western wordlviews and cultures(yes, they are lots of cultures being grouped together)are dualistic when looked at like that. i was wondering what people thought were the differnces between the two.

17:30 / 15.10.01

I understood what you meant but I think my question still applies: By eastern do you mean Japanese, Chinese, Mongolian, Siberian, Indian, Nepalese, Tibetan etc.? There are plenty of similarities and differences between all of those, especially when you bring in the indiginous practices of those areas and their 'assimilations' into the governments that encountered them.

By western do you mean Greek, Celtic, Native American, Norse, etc.

Where do you draw the line between the indo-european influences that are prevalent in both 'east' and 'west'?

The reason I'm asking this is because it seems that having a discussion about the differences between Taoist magic and Hermetic magic (for example) is a lot less slippery than a vague 'east' vs. 'west' discussion mainly because everyone is going to have a different impression of what 'east' and 'west' is which usually devolves into a semantic argument instead of actually discussing anything of substance.

Unless maybe those perceptions are what you want people to discuss more than the specifics of the magical styles.

19:42 / 18.10.01

To make a diversion, I would like to go back about a hundred years.
Then I would term western magic, the stuff being practised in Europe deriving back to the helenistic periode, and allso the different semmitic stuff, including egyptian, quabbala s.o.
High magic?

The first orientalistic waves with "eastern magic" would be Blavatsky I think. (Might be wrong there), and from there on.

Most magic practised here in "the west" today, is ofthe mixed

If you dig deaper in the material, east and west is a part of the same traditions, going back to the indo-europeans (probably) and so forth

shamanism is a totaly diferent tradition/thought system so is the african and australia consepts

And ofcours, in all the cross-over areas, you find mixtures, Japan, Tibet, Haiti s.o.

The terms east/west, doesn't realy mean anything today, unless you want to study "pure" traditions, then you should know where the different ideas comes from.

Whats the pupose of your magic?

T.

09:32 / 19.10.01

Esoteric thought has kindly been divided into Eastern and Western so that we can sort our libraries more easily.

13:05 / 19.10.01

yes

07:57 / 15.04.04

I know this thread's ancient but i'm bumping this because i'm interested in finding out about taoist magick and when i got to the third page searching on google this came up.

This is interesting :

And if you want to talk about Taoism, there isn't a literal, active magick to it. More a passive one. Of course, this is all interpretive, but what I get from it is this:

The less you attempt to actively pursue magick, change in the world, etc, and the more appreciation you cultivate for such things - as in a willingness to just watch the universe do it's work - the more magick just begins to happen around you.

This sounds like the art of wu wei, which i can't remember the translation for but it means something like unaffected action or just letting things be as they are. I think this could be true but i'm sure there's also an active side to taoist magic and i'm looking around on the net for something now, i'll post again here if i get something good.

I'm totally into trying to balance eastern and western magick and philosophy in what i do too, so that's another reason why i bumped this, will post back.

08:22 / 15.04.04

Well, as Feng You Lan points in History of Philisophy and Religion in China (I think that is the title), Taoism broke in two branches after the appareance of Buddhism and buddhist and tantric magic (I think it was in Tang times).

One branch remained as a "philosophic" thing, and in that is where wu wei applies more precisely. IMO it stands just in front and against of the badass-killer-magician mindset. There is no reason (in the taoist view) to manipulate reality. Maybe it seems nearer the Crowley position of (paraphrasing) "knowing your real Will". And then acting in the world being your real Will and just letting go. But I think that "real Will" in Taoism is more of an impermanence kind, a neither-neither in Osman Spare terms.

The other branch, of which I know very little, became a practical magic one. There is a good review of some of its practices in "The secret of the golden flower" by Jung. It seems to me more a tantrical-chinese-buddhist melting pot than any other thing, but its a very superficial opinion from me, I really don't know a thing about it.

Shanghai Quasar

08:58 / 15.04.04

Wu-wei may be loosely translated to mean "nondoing", Master Zen. However, that definition in itself is misleading; it is not just nondoing, it is action without effort. Going with the flow to come to the natural conclusion, the opposite of the notion of forcing your will upon something and bending reality to your whims.

It's an interesting concept, though I admit that my overwhelming ego strains against such things.

10:03 / 15.04.04

Thanks Zheng and Shanghai(!), i'm just looking at the Alan Watts book The Way Of Zen and he says :

'This is wu-wei, since wu means 'not' or non-' and wei means 'action', 'making', 'doing', 'striving', 'straining', or 'busyness'.

The Tao is accessible only to the mind which can practise the simple and subtle art of wu-wei, which, after the Tao, is the second important principle of Taoism.'

I really like the idea and it's worked for me a lot, but not in a magic kind of way, more of a just living in a freer, spontaneous fashion without analyzing things so much. What i'm thinking is that there's a middle may between the philosophical side and the practical magic side of Taoism that can include wu-wei to help develop a natural type magic. Of course, the way to do this could include not searching for it, not thinking about it and just seeing what comes up, but i'm pretty certain there's some cool stuff in this area.

It seems like something you would have to learn like a martial art or something, and when you get so far, you'd just aquire different skills and perceptions that would change the way magickal workings are done.

trouser the trouserian

11:18 / 15.04.04

A form of Taoism which incorporated many aspects of earlier, shamanic practices emerged in China around the time of the Han Dynasty (206 BCE). Practices included the use of talismans and incantations to ward off evil spirits, and "shamanic journeying". For example, Tung-fang Shuo - a Han Dynasty Taoist, wrote a guide to journeying through the roots of China's sacred mountains (I think Mircea Eliade discusses this text in his book Shamanism). It is also recorded that Taoist magicians used mirrors in order to communicate with demons, and that Western magical traditions which feature this practice may have originated from the diffusion of Chinese magic into Europe through Arabic traders. Taoist magicians also worked as healers, curing the sick and possessed. The Fox Spirit traditions that one encounters in Japanese folklore were also known in China. Another well-known Han Dynasty Taoist magician is Zhuge Liang who reputedly used sorcery in order to help Liu Bei (who's a rather interesting figure in himself) win the Battle of Red Bluff in 208 CE.

You will also find mentions of sorcery, Taoist and otherwise, in Chinese novels such as The Story of the Stone and The Investiture of the Gods.

here's an interesting article discussing the structure of Daoist incantations.

15:33 / 15.04.04

Depends on where you draw the line at Magickally - divination is magick after all, and the I Ching plays an important role in Daoist and Chinese thought. There's several other Daoist oracles that are less well known in the West. Check Joel Biroco's Yi Jng pages for details.

Epop Bastart the Justified, I

19:06 / 17.04.04

In the Hindu tradition, magicians get to directly invoke active, personal gods who're still worshipped by one and a half billion people, give or take.

Makes life a lot easier.

06:20 / 18.04.04

Alot of western magick is branched from eastern cultures, from the time of slaves and colonies and so on. I just think that western magick is the result of evolution of eastern magick and really there isn't much difference between the both just newer material and I think its like a story being passed down from generation to generation by mouth it won't be the same as it was told the first time.