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Underground > Radio & Music >

Those accusations of dodgy politics in full...

All Acting Regiment

15:05 / 12.06.05

With certain bands, be it Joy Division, Public Enemy, Bowie, or the Ramones, there is always seemingly a background hum of concern that they may have held right wing views on homosexuality, race, or various others.

Obviously Public Enemy weren't white supremacists, but did they go too far the other way? Equally, what was all that about the Ramones supporting George Bush?

This is a thread for discussing this sort of issue. If you want to tell us why it does or doesn't makle a difference to your listening experience, go ahead.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

19:08 / 12.06.05

This is an interesting one- it has been covered before, but usually in separate threads about the bands involved, as far as a quick search tells me.

I, for example, love Wagner. And, above and beyond the well-documented Hitler connection (which wasn't his fault), the guy WAS a notorious anti-Semite. But I don't feel as uneasy listening to him as I do to, say, Death In June (who I used to really like, back before it occurred to me that, hey! Douglas P doesn't just think this stuff LOOKS cool- which would be fairly dodgy in itself but not without precedent- he buys into the whole ideology behind it as well)- in part I think this has to do with the fact that when I buy a Wagner CD, or pay for a seat at the opera, none of my actual money is going to to the old bugger, what with him being dead and all. I am aware that this is something of a cop-out, as I can't say I wouldn't have paid to see a performance if he was still alive.
It's something that bothers me quite a lot; I'm a fan of Boyd Rice, for example, as well as several VERY dodgy black metal bands- I try not to give them my money, but I'm not sure if that's just a way of avoiding the issue.

20:30 / 12.06.05

I think this really depends on how the opinions translate.

William Burroughs, for example, who I'd personally almost certainly probably still buy a beer for, even if it turned out he was 'really' that bad, has a reputation for being anti-semitic, women-hating, etc, but to the extent that this stuff's actually in the writing, it needs to be taken in context - he's not exactly noted for his sunny, humanistic dispostion in general, I'd say.

It's the difference between saying terrible things in the boozer ( I never do this myself, of course, as I'm sure none of us do, ) and actually going out and 'expressing' - A lot of the time, it seems as if these people's 'extreme political opinions' tend to crop up at the end of a ten hour press junket, after lots of free beer and the same questions repeated, over, and over, and over again...

Similarly, what did someone like Ian Curtis ever do, really, for the Neo-Nazi movement ? I mean they're not exactly holiday brochures for a particular way of seeing, are they, those albums ? If you're inspired to do anything by those, trying to burn down the local curry house is going to take a very distant third place to a) hanging about drinking cider with friends, and b) attempting to get the debut novel together.

No extreme right wing state ever came into being because of Ezra Pound, WB Yeats, Marinetti ( sp, I'm guessing, ) or whoever it is that's the current bete du jour - even Rudyard Kipling can't really be held responsible for what happened later in the days of the Empire, even though for a while back there it must have seemed like he was writing the press copy.

Unpleasant things happen for no other reason than because enough people feel, at the time, think that they're the right thing to do.

Although there's probably an interesting discussion to be had about what would have happened in the 20th century if it's most celebrated, and successful, maniacs had got their arts careers off the ground - If someone had really got behind Hitler's painting, if some guy had given Mussolini a book deal... I think it's fair to say that everything would be very different.

02:39 / 13.06.05

The Ezra Pound thing sticks out to me, but that's because of his tendency sell people out... on top of the whole fascist promotion gig.
I know people who knew Burroughs late in his life, and not a one of them actually thinks badly of him.
I knew Ginsberg a bit near the end of his life, and while I thought he, personally and by persona, was alright, he did have a few dodgy practices which even then (I would've been, oh, highschool age or so), in my younger, (nigh) anything goes, days, they grated my personal moral barometer so that the mercury spilled out a bit and poisoned things.
Other than the 'Wandering Jew' was there any actual evidence of Wagner being more antisemetic than the average European of his era?

Back to the topic: I still throw money at Public Enemy when I need to replace a CD, while not agreeing withem even, say, seventy/thirty percent.
Alice Cooper came out for El Presidente the Shrub, didn't he? Fuck, I'm not tossing out his albums. Billion Dollar Babies might make me forgive a Bushite.
Glen Danzig - Once the truth and myth have been properly sorted, I may weigh in.
I can't believe Merle Haggard was entirely serious with some of them songs. No. Because if I believed it, I couldn't let myself listen anymore, without wanting to kick my own ass.
'S'funny, but Jerry Lee Lewis' marrying his underage cousin, doesn't bother me all that much (I'm going to have to look up how underage, now, but...), while reports of his casual racism get me a bit riled.
The Ramones, Lemmy, Patti Smith... all forgiven their trespasses unless I hear more details and probably even then, 'cause they're all just that damned good and don't want to toss the albums.

In the end, I'm gonna Godwin this and bring out Hitler... 'Mein Kampf' is not a bad book because it was written by Hitler. It is a crappy book because it is shitty, poorly written, has terrible in-text continuity, and otherwise does nothing for me.
So, the point is, I guess, this sort of thing only really bothers me when someone's music/writing/art is crap, otherwise...
I have shit convictions, apparently.

08:37 / 13.06.05

DD;

With all due respect, ie; none, that is the dumbest load of crap I've ever heard in my entire life. As I'm sure you know, very well.

All Acting Regiment

12:58 / 13.06.05

DD, what you've said comes across as though you are saying that Hitler's ideas weren't sufficient to make you see the book Mein Kampf as bad. It sounds as though you're saying it was the style. I think most people here agree that it's the content.

On the subject of Joy Division: AFAIK the name refers to a group of women kept for physical pleasure by SS officers. So, the band seems to be identifying with the victim rather than the perpetrator. On the other hand, do they have any right to suggest that they suffer on the same level?

Looking at the lyrical content of their songs, there is no outright pro NF/BNP comments. There are, however, reflections on the idea of a master race in at least two songs. I would tend towards the view that they were discussing the issues, rather than bigging them up. Feel free to disagree, I've not looked into it as deep as I would like to.

The other week I went to see a bunch of local hardcore punk bands. One of them had a song called BNP. It was instroduced like this:"This song is called...B...N...P..." and this was then chanted very loudly by a group of aging punks: "BNP! BNP!" When I later looked up the lyrics, they turned out to be anti-BNP, but the atmosphere in the club when they were playing was definitely ambiguous. I guess what this shows is that it's hard to engage with the idea of the far right without appearing to promote it, what do you say?

Regrettable Juvenilia

14:17 / 13.06.05

On the other hand, do they have any right to suggest that they suffer on the same level?

Where and when did they suggest this?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

14:49 / 13.06.05

It was always my impression that Mr Curtis had an unfortunate fascination with the Third Reich (as well as many other manifestations of negativity and the dark side of human existence- I don't think anyone's gonna say that he wasn't a fairly mixed-up and unhappy guy), rather than an agreement with its ideals. It was an interest of his, rather than an ideology he was commenting on from either side.
As regards the name, I think he probably just read it and thought "that'd be a cool name for a band", what with his obsessions and all. I don't think he was suggesting any equivalence of suffering at all.
I mean, previously they were called Warsaw, but I don't see many people arguing that they saw themselves as the equivalent of the Jewish resistance...

Imho, they were one of the greatest bands ever. But Mr C... well, he had problems.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:02 / 13.06.05

Oh, and Wagner?

Wagner’s aversion to Jews went deeper than that of most of his contemporaries. He pronounced Jewry’s entry into modern society as the very undoing of German and European culture. Yiddish, “a creaking, squeaking, buzzing snuffle,” provoked his ire and the Volk’s “instinctive antipathy,” representing the quintessential corruption of German language and culture. However, Wagner gives no quarter to the modern assimilated Jew either, who remains “the most heartless of all human beings,” alien and pathetic in the midst of a society he cannot understand, whose history and evolution are foreign to him. The Jew, he continues, is wholly divorced from the Volksgeist, lacks passion, soul, any “inner capacity for life.” True music is beyond the likes of Meyerbeer and Mendelssohn, the former dismissed out of hand and the latter taken severely to task for his limitations, his inability to go beyond Beethoven. Everything Mendelssohn, who presumably lacked the Teutonic folk soul, wrote must, by necessity, lack passion, warmth and ethical depth arising from good German stock.

From here

and before anyone gives me any of that "The Centre for Jewish History" is hardly unbiased, just Google for "Wagner" and "anti-Semitism". There's a lot out there. (I was actually looking for something content-wise on Die Meistersinger, but that seemed the better link).

19:13 / 13.06.05

Alright, after doing a bit of looking about the web, yeah, Wagner, antisemetic, bitter, not so good guy... but I'm not giving up his music.
On the Hitler front: I really don't think there's an idea so bad or wrong or evil that it can't be expressed well. I also don't believe you have to believe every and anything you read, see, hear, or taste when we get some taste narratives going.
I can agree entirely with someone and not enjoy their art, or disagree with them slightly, entirely, or on certain issues, and enjoy their art.
I do accept that we are all flawwed, and frequently our flaws are of a great ugly sort that we would rather not be remembered for, or that uglier sort that we don't even recognize as a flaw. All of us. That, 'they are either Jesus or lying' bit is wrongheaded; Eli! Eli! Lama sabachtani... and all. We've all got our failings.
For example: Ann Gedde may be a very nice and wonderful person, but her little frozen babies in ceramic disturb me unduly and I don't like'em. At the same time, I've enjoyed a Larry Hama comic here and there, and I don't agree with him on quite a bit.
If William Burroughs was everything anyone'd ever accused him of being, I'd still love his book on cats and the opening bits of 'Nova Express'.
If Hitler turned out to be a nice, quiet fellow who never harmed a fly, but was actually built into a monster by a vast conspiracy in need of a sham front man, had no control and loved little children, butterflies, and warm summer evenings... 'Mein Kampf' would still be a shitty book.
I don't care how nice, agreeable, or socially acceptable someone is, if the work is bad, the work is bad. And by bad, I most often mean, simply, disinteresting. Whether you're Ian Banks or Rosy M Banks, Adolf Hitler or Chinua Achebe, Elvis Presley or Space Cobra. Entertainment needs to entertain, to interest, and as far as I'm concerned, everything is entertainment, it's just that some of it fails at being interesting.

19:16 / 13.06.05

The above being a fair attempt at developing an even dumber load of crap, for those taking score of that sort of thing.

All Acting Regiment

19:54 / 13.06.05

Okay, DD.

Flyboy:"Where and when did (JD) suggest this?"

Good point. They never have directly suggested it, you're right. My reasoning was that by calling your band something, are you not identifying yourself with the object you're named after?

00:58 / 14.06.05

If taking something as a name of your band leaves you identified with it, or as though you identify as it, leaves me kinda happy that Stone Temple Pilots didn't go with some of the other options they toyed with. Just to keep the weirdness levels manageable.
What was the self-identification implicit in Derek and the Dominoes, then? Or Echo-Echo and his Rabbitfoot Minstrels?
Not everyone's as engineered as those eroto-assassins the Sex Pistols, but it's a trip when the ones who don't seem to have a meaning, actually do.

03:51 / 14.06.05

On the other hand, do they have any right to suggest that they suffer on the same level?

Where and when did they suggest this?

there was that time that me and a young Gardner Morrison were hanging out with Ian Curtis, eating Hostess Fruit Pies, and Ian said "you know, i feel that my suffering is roughly equal to, or perhaps even greater than, that experienced by Nazi sex slaves."

then he drew us illustrations on the back of his napkin to hammer home the point, using the = and > signs.

08:45 / 14.06.05

From what I've heard of The Ramones, it was Johnny that was the right-winger. Nothing extremely right-wing, but it made me sad to hear they apologised to Reagan for 'Bonzo goes to Bitburg'...

All Acting Regiment

09:40 / 14.06.05

Well, Derek was presumably the name of the lead singer.

10:03 / 14.06.05

Except that Clapton, in fact, fronted the Dominos. Whom, I believe, started out as Eric and the Dynamos for about three seconds and then shifted for reasons beyond the ken of mortal men. Immortals and women capable of dying and not dying, on the other hand, may wish to enlighten.
Not to turn this into a Clapton Pseudonym thread, but, anybody?

14:50 / 14.06.05

From what I've heard of The Ramones, it was Johnny that was the right-winger. Nothing extremely right-wing, but it made me sad to hear they apologised to Reagan for 'Bonzo goes to Bitburg'...

Yeah, for the record, as those who've caught the recent film/biography will already know, Johnny was the right-wing one. Not exactly a nazi or a anything, but a stubborn "god bless america and kill the commies" kinda guy. Thankfully he didn't write many lyrics on the subject, but there's some pretty dumb shit that suggests his influence on 'End of the Century'.

Add to that Dee Dee's comedic fascination with nazi germany (hence 'Blitzkrieg Bop' and 'I'm a Nazi baby..') and it's easy to get the wrong idea sometimes.

I'm Rick Jones, bitch

16:38 / 14.06.05

Public Enemy's thing for Nation of Islam really does sour me, sometimes. I don't play "Bring the Noise" anymore, case it pisses off my jewish flatmate.

Oh, and Gary Neuman's a (hissss) Thatcherite, but he did "Cars" and "Are Friends Electric?". I'm so fucking torn.

All Acting Regiment

19:31 / 14.06.05

Ah, but Neuman didn't write the songs on his own, those two at least were stolen from his old punk band, Tubeway Army, who were very angry about it. The punk versions can be found on P2P and are a bit less redolent of leather gloves and that thin, pink, school toilet paper.

20:44 / 14.06.05

The band agreed on Derek (their nickname for Clapton) and the Dynamics. Then Joe Ashton (of Ashton, Gardner & Dyke, opening for the band's first gig) got tongue tied when he introduced them. Derek and the Dynamics came out as Derek and the Dominoes. Slip of the tongue.

Clapton, incidentally, post Derek and the Dominoes, started mouthing off onstage in Birmingham thirty years ago about his support for Enoch Powell.

22:36 / 14.06.05

Thanks for the explanation of the name.
Jaysis, Clapton too, eh? Maybe it's a good thing that, despite all his actually quite listen-able music, the thing I remember foremost about him is Moorcock's "I'm Crying in Me Milk" gag.h

All Acting Regiment

09:48 / 15.06.05

How much of our concept of these bands as "dodgy" or "unpleasant" comes from the now more unified left/right divide, as opposed to the messier past? Would they be any different today? Is it better to have a band like the Ramones with some politics we may disagree with than a band like Travis who have no politics whatsoever?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:07 / 15.06.05

the now more unified left/right divide

I don't understand what this means.

Is anyone else amused by the discontinuity between the phrase "in full" in the title, and the sketchy nature of some of these accusations thus far?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:10 / 15.06.05

Also, leaving aside the issue of whether any band can ever have "no politics whatsoever", even I know that Travis had specifically political songs on their last album!

19:58 / 15.06.05

Is anyone else amused by the discontinuity between the phrase "in full" in the title, and the sketchy nature of some of these accusations thus far?

Not really. I think the title was merely rhetorical, and I've found the thread fairly enlightening.

Can't say a lot yet, but I just picked up "Gimme Danger: The Story of Iggy Pop" to be greeted in the foreword with the following quote:

"Well, I hate women. I mean, why do I even have to have a reason for that? It's like, why are people repelled by insects? I use 'em because they are lying, dirty, treacherous, and their ambitions all too often involve using me!"

Which paints him as a pretty dodgy motherfucker. I don't know if I would withdraw my support for him because of that. If I pay money to him, it's for his artistry, and his personal opinions are his own business. But then the foreword also says "his treatment of women in real life has been lamentable too". Which does raise serious questions. I'll let you know whether I end up smashing his CDs or not.

11:47 / 16.06.05

I dunno when that quote's dated from, but like a lot of the early punk rockers, Iggy spent the early 70s being such a ludicrous swaggering mysogynist it's hard to take him seriously.. remember Metallic KO?

"For all you Hebrew ladies in the audience, this one's called RICH BITCH!" etc.

22:34 / 16.06.05

Not that it's awfully good for proving one thing or another, Iggy Pop also had a very nice, witty wife/girlfriend, a few years back who didn't seem to be one to take much shit off him, so...
Sometimes I think people just say shit to get a reaction. Even to just see what the reaction might be. Jesus did it (see tree-talking, hanging about the watering hole chatting up women, this is my blood), I've been guilty of it on occasion, Tom Waits definitely does it. Would be very surprised if anyone's spent any significant amount of time in the public eye without having the urge to just say something completely absurd.
Glen Danzig's suggestion that anyone who really, really needs him to do another 'Mother' should just go out and kill their girlfriend, then fuck off... was, I'd wager, less about him wanting people to go kill, and mostly just the 'fuck off' at the end.
Similarly, I kinda hope Alice Cooper's pro-Bush stance is just another horror/schlock tactic. But, no, probably not.

08:29 / 17.06.05

Alice Cooper's pro-Bush stance

I am actually quite sad to hear about that - I've always thought he comes across like a really cool, sensible guy when he's interviewed 'out-of-character', so to speak.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:39 / 17.06.05

Mr Brigade and I were discussing the boy Cooper only the other night, and we concluded that, in real life, he seems to be kind of like "your mate's dad who's quite cool". And your mate's quite cool dad more often than not DOES have some non-redeeming features of the type that usually come out on election day, unfortunately.