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The Perils of Success?

 
 
Eudaimonic.lvx
09:35 / 11.06.05
Mace talks about not getting owt for nowt, magically speaking.

As a beginner to practical magic, I have noticed a pattern which I would attribute to this dynamic.

Ie, Casting sigil results in successful car sale, other car breaks down within two hours. Quick working to secure new allotment space, immediately lose favourite sweater. Sigil to get new house, car breaks down soon after (perhaps I just have a crap car!)

Does anyone else notice this? Could we say its a general law of magic? Am I doing something wrong? How can we avoid it?

Its only happened three times, but the immediacy of the 'payback' event makes me curious.

cheers
MZ :-)
 
 
not-so-deadly netshade
12:19 / 11.06.05
Is this what they call the "Monkey's Paw" effect?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:37 / 11.06.05
There's also an old tradition that whatever you do gets done back to you multiplied by 3. I beleive the view generally held here is that those stories are put around to scare people from tapping into magic.
 
 
gravitybitch
16:57 / 11.06.05
*Nothing* is entirely painless.

For some folks, the time and effort put into ritual is "payment" enough. I suspect it depends on your worldview - whether you think, in your deepest heart of hearts, that you deserve what you're working for, or if you have to pay a little more for it in addition to the working.

Personally? I haven't done a major working in a while, but the little stuff (like parking spaces, both for myself and for friends visiting me) seem to be easy and have no additional fees attached, just require the ritual and the thanks-giving afterwards.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:36 / 12.06.05
success always invokes faliure
as good always invokes evil

polar opposites attract and repel each other within the same relationship creating the nessecary friction to maintain there individual exsistence.

its the sense of seperation that is needed to create the attraction and repulsion.

you can be sure that when dealing with one you will attract / repel the attention of the opposite.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
13:08 / 12.06.05
My own take on it is that deep down at my deepest core, there is a belief or a meta belief, that expects me to have to pay for any advantage I gain. I accept this is a limiting belief and yet, it will not budge and I am sure has cost me in the past

So invariably, I suppose that I would end up paying some price for any successful work I undertook or any advantage I obtained via magickal means

But I also fully accept that this is just my peculiar belief and that another person, un-encumbered with such a belief would not be thus hindered.
Just my take and I don't know whether I am right or not

It might all be down to perception and sensitivity

I might cast a Sigil for a new car, get the car, then lose out on a business deal. I might attribute this business deal failiure as the price I had paid
Another person, might in similar circumstances, totally disregard or not associate this loss with the first act

It is hard to judge, as we all have successes and failiures and unless they become a pattern or undoubtedly linked to the things you had had success with, then I don't know how we can really quantify this, other than via our own beliefs

I do know that the 'karmic' debt doesn't always work in the material but can be just as damaging on the mental plane. For example, I rarely intentionally do anybody a bad turn but on occassion, like most of us, my vengeful nature has kicked in and I have done acts I am now ashamed of, against people who I do not like. Even if I have not told a sould about this act and am quietly enjoying my own devious nature, I am payed back by the realisation that somebody could so easily be doing similar to me.
Even though I have had no doubt that my acts have been covert and I haven't disclosed my actions, I have suffered as a result from paranoia and worry that others could just as easily decieve me

From this I take it that negative acts are rarely worth the effort as the momentary joy is eclipsed by remorse and in some respects the worse prospect of the recipient having done similar to me. It is a lot to deal with and I am glad that my own negative acts have been rare in the extreme

Even good intentions can backfire so I make it a rule now to ensure that my magical work is always prefaced with proviso's such as

"avoiding any harm to me or all................"



I am starting a thread in a minute or two about the New Thought movement that addresses some of these issues

It might be of interest to you (I hope)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:24 / 13.06.05
"Fuck the world, don't ask me for shit
And everything you get ya gotta work hard fot it"

The What – Notorius B.I.G. & Method Man

There's no such thing as a free lunch in the universe, and magic - whilst providing a certain leverage - is still a part of that universe. It'll go by the path of least resistance. It'll happen when you're looking the other way. It'll come from a direction you're not expecting.

If you approach results magic like a kind of cosmic shopping list, where it's all acquisitional wishes turned into little drawings and masturbated over for worldly gain, I can see how you might conceivably get a bit of kickback off it. The universe hates a vacuum, etc... It's not a particularly sustainable basis for operating, nothing is being put back, nothing is being freely given. It's all take, take, take.

If you could get everything you wanted for free, then those things that you wanted would quickly lose their meaning. "We are divided for loves sake, for the chance of union". The swords cut and rend and seperate, because if they didnt we would have no understanding of wholeness, love and union. It would be meaningless.

If you could sigilise for whatever you wanted with no limits and no repercussions, and if it worked every time in exactly the way you wanted it to, you wouldnt really learn anything - just accumulate a lot of stuff you probably didnt really need. There seems to be more going on in the universe than consumerism, and results magic rarely seems to function along consumerist lines.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:43 / 13.06.05
Joetheneophyte: Even good intentions can backfire so I make it a rule now to ensure that my magical work is always prefaced with proviso's such as

"avoiding any harm to me or all................"


Meh. I was doing this up until relatively recently, but I've now dropped the practice. From experience it seems like a really good way to make sure that your spell does jack shit--better to accept that yes, getting what you want is going to sting a bit, and deal with that.

The approach I'm taking now is: Get creative, put somthing real into the working. Make something. Destroy something. Offer something up, something meaningful. Earn the result.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:11 / 13.06.05
I think perhaps part of the fear or distrust that non-magicians have of magic or magicians comes from the idea that these people don't care about the effects of what they do: there's the assumption that a spell will have effects on the world outside the caster.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:14 / 13.06.05
Totally agree, Mordant. I think that whole thing of adding lengthy disclaimers to your sigils is ridiculous. Why not just get a lawyer in to check through your statement of intent before you do anything with it? Make sure there's no clauses or loopholes that the universe might misinterpret? I don't believe that magic operates in such an insane bureaucratic way.

I don't think the universe has a legal department to go over all the small print prior to executing your will. My experience is that these things function along more... primal... Lines, and this sort of fine tuning is only going to confuse things. The more direct and straightforward the magic is, the more effective it often is. The best spell for making someone leave a premises is to piss on their doorstep.

Also, I'd agree that there is a certain fear of responsibility in this approach. "Only if it harms no-one, blah, blah, blah". You can't buy a pair of trainers and be sure that it's harming no-one, let alone make changes to reality through magic. Accept the consequences of your actions or don't take those actions. It's either worth doing, or it isn't.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:59 / 13.06.05
I'd agree that there is a certain fear of responsibility in this approach. "Only if it harms no-one, blah, blah, blah".

Exactly, but it's hard to get away from that stuff. It's such an all-pervasive feature of the crap popular magic books that many of us here cut our teeth on that it becomes background noise--you don't really question it, because chances are everyone you talk to is spouting a variation on the same nonsense.

I'd got better over the years but I was only able to really let go of the compulsion to fuck up my workings with codicils and hedging and fudging when I looked back over my practice and realised that my most impressive and memorable results had been obtained when I'd got really pissed off and cursed someone good and hard. No harm-it-nones and no holds barred = Results.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:26 / 13.06.05
(Um, not that I go around cursing people generally. These were isolated incidents where all attempts to resolve a very unpleasant situation had failed.)
 
 
Joetheneophyte
15:36 / 13.06.05
so it was

AVOIDING HARM TO ALL EXCEPT FOR THAT CUNT WHO CUT ME UP TODAY


 
 
Unconditional Love
15:54 / 13.06.05
All that an it harm none stuff is to try and make magic more socially acceptable, ie it ties into the christian idea of conscience that many people are brought up with.

thats not to say that conscience is a bad thing, but if you really want something, it does tend to be a primal wanting that will invoke that thing with a force, thou having said that following my conscience has led me to some intresting places, and sometimes conscience itself can lead to the repression of a need to the point where that need does indeed become manifest.

thou i do find lusting and slathering after things more enjoyable, i like the mess it makes, too many straight lines in the western world, not enough curves with splattery splooges, too much symmetry, i want one breast bigger than the other. i think its my right one.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
17:11 / 20.06.05
I don't think the universe has a legal department to go over all the small print prior to executing your will. My experience is that these things function along more... primal... Lines, and this sort of fine tuning is only going to confuse things. --Gypsy Lantern

I just had a funny thought: the notion of demons with contracts with complex fine print and wording such that the pact-maker is doomed by failing to read literally... was that originally anti-magician propaganda by the Church?

I used to have a great fear of monkey's-paw effects, and I bet you could search for and find a thread on that that would really embarrass me now. The reason you shouldn't have the provisos isn't because REAL MAGES ARE HARDCORE AND TAKE THEIR LUMPS LIKE A MAN, YEAH! It's because whenever you do anything, no matter how mundane, it might succeed beyond your imaginings, or it might cause inconvenience, or it might get you killed. This is the price of leaving the house in the morning, but we don't (usually) fear going out, because the probabilities are in our favor. To tie up magick with contingency plans for your contingency plans is to go to work pumped full of antibiotics, wearing chain mail, and making only right turns—effective in protection, not so effective in actually getting anything done.
 
 
Seth
22:41 / 20.06.05
ie it ties into the christian idea of conscience that many people are brought up with.

I've never encountered the notion that the concept of conscience has its origins in Christianity. Where is this from?
 
 
Chiropteran
01:23 / 21.06.05
[I don't know if this is what Gone and forgotten is getting at, but this is my take on it] Well, not the origins of conscience, as such, but many people who go on to practice magic are raised - and have their formative lessons in conscience and morality - in a Christian context. As for "an ye harm none," etc. in a neo-Pagan context, I think there is an argument for this being in part a concession to the dominant Christian (or at least nominative para-Christian) society. It seems, at least, to be one of the big talking points for Pagan apologists in the media ("And we never hurt or curse anyone - it's against our Rede"), as well as kids defending their religious path to their (often Christian) parents. I'm getting a little off-track from the thread summary, though, so I'll leave it here.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:49 / 21.06.05
The reason you shouldn't have the provisos isn't because REAL MAGES ARE HARDCORE AND TAKE THEIR LUMPS LIKE A MAN, YEAH! It's because whenever you do anything, no matter how mundane, it might succeed beyond your imaginings, or it might cause inconvenience, or it might get you killed.

Precisely. This is one major reason for my usual tedious "beginners should always take up divination first, blah blah blah" lecture. If you get used to using a reasonably sophisticated divinatory technique, you should always be able to go into a working with rough idea of how things are going to go down--what are the benefits, what are the costs. Scry before you buy. (Eventually a lot of this will become instinctive and you won't need the cards or whatever so often.)
 
 
Sekhmet
14:17 / 21.06.05
Doesn't this "karmic" effect seem very logical, with respect to physics, Hermetic Law, etc.? The laws of vibration, duality, and preservation of energy & matter would almost seem to necessitate an exchange of this kind.

A gift for a gift; you have to give for what you take. If you don't want to lose something unexpectedly, offer something up to begin with.

Or: cast for things that aren't purely selfish. If there's true will for a greater purpose, or something beneficial to others as well as yourself, maybe the price tag won't send you into sticker shock.

Eh, my thoughts anyway.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:56 / 21.06.05
Sekhmet: it would seem so, perhaps, but there is a tangled area of moralizing that can confuse the idea of simple exchange (or less-simple balance). The difference between "paying for" ("exchanging something of value") something and "Paying For" ("taking your lumps") something, if you take my meaning. I invest something of myself (and often a physical offering or sacrifice) into my magical work, and I (generally) obtain a result. That is very different from the idea that for every benefit I get from magic, I must also expect a penalty.

This is, I think, a quite separate issue from "unintended consequences," though in practice the two can resemble each other, and get awfully tangled up in discussion.
 
 
Sekhmet
15:20 / 21.06.05
Mm... I'm not sure I see the distinction you're drawing, Lep; I'm probably being dense. Can you explain further?

My point was that it's perhaps reasonable to expect the universe to take a chunk out of you afterward if you don't make an effort beforehand. If you don't put a lot of thought and preparation into a ritual, and don't offer a service or sacrifice to the deities you appeal to, where does the energy come from to make the magic happen? Maybe things get balanced out afterwards as something rushes into the void you've left.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:29 / 21.06.05
Which distinction are you unsure about (I made two)? Don't think I'm disagreeing with you, 'cos I'm not -- I just added (or, probably, restated less clearly) the bit about framing the phenomenon you describe in moralistic language, and the confusions that can arise therefrom. Otherwise, I think we're on about the same thing.
 
 
Sekhmet
20:05 / 21.06.05
Ah. Morality in the sense of karma? I put "karmic" in quotes because I was attempting to make that distinction as well.

However, I guess the bit about unselfishness resulting in less "backlash" is a bit muddled. I didn't necessarily mean to imply that a working for a larger purpose generates less, er, debt (probably not the best term) because it's "better" or "more moral" than a selfish working. I may be using circular reasoning here, but if, in the working itself, you are giving rather than taking, it seems to me that the spell would... well, pay its own debt.

Ack. I'm confusing myself, even. Let me think and see if I can better articulate this...
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:22 / 21.06.05
cause and effect.

what lep said seth.
 
 
Seth
22:41 / 21.06.05
I've always defined conscience as the part of a person that compels them to act in accordance with their system of ethics, as distinct from being synonymous with the system of ethics. Every individual is only capable of having their own unique system, although it may be informed by ideas they’ve gained from religions, one of which is Christianity. So I disagree that Christianity invented the conscience, as there’s no proofs of that anywhere. Christianity did supply the Do Unto Others and Love Thy Neighbour material, but that’s not to be confused with the notion of conscience, which is the urge to Do Unto Others and Love Thy Neighbour and thus is a force that acts to reinforce any ethical system.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:46 / 22.06.05
it appears originally conscience was an interchangeable term with consciousness, at what point in the use of latin it took on its own value in realtionship to ethics and morals is hard to say, but it does appear to have changed in meaning as differing philosophies have explored it. it does seem likely thou that conscience/self consciousness became more defined in relation to guilt, when certain moral institutions arose that reinforce a sense of guilt about certain kinds of behaviour. but again its definition seems to have altered upon the view point of those describing it.

i contrast it with christianity in particular because it plays a major part within christian psychology in my opinion, in fact id argue its a foundation stone of that particular belief system.
 
 
Seth
22:41 / 22.06.05
Maybe it's worth taking this discussion of conscience to another thread. Do people think it's relevant here?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:09 / 30.06.05
I think it's relevant in the sense that the ouchy side-effects could be seen as a manifestation of guilt or anxiety on the part of the practitioner--prickles of conscience realising themselves through events. Personally I don't reckon that's how it works, but it's a line of enquiry.
 
  
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