BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Scientists assert homosexuality IS genetic.... in fruit flies.

 
 
*
00:50 / 04.06.05
In fruit flies, one gene determines sexual orientation.

That one gene, the researchers are announcing today in the journal Cell, is apparently by itself enough to create patterns of sexual behavior - a kind of master sexual gene that normally exists in two distinct male and female variants.

In a series of experiments, the researchers found that females given the male variant of the gene acted exactly like males in courtship, madly pursuing other females. Males that were artificially given the female version of the gene became more passive and turned their sexual attention to other males.

"We have shown that a single gene in the fruit fly is sufficient to determine all aspects of the flies' sexual orientation and behavior," said the paper's lead author, Dr. Barry Dickson, senior scientist at the Institute of Molecular Biotechnology at the Austrian Academy of Sciences in Vienna. "It's very surprising.

I suppose now people will be thinking it works just this way in humans. Will Christian activists take a stand against gay fruit flies?
 
 
SiliconDream
04:52 / 05.06.05
I imagine most anti-gay activists will claim that humans aren't like fruit flies in this instance, since they tend to argue that homosexuality's entirely voluntary. (Mind you, they're probably right in this case--just about everything's genetically determined in Drosophila, so you can't really draw a conclusion from the fact that their sexuality is too. They're pretty rigidly-developing critters.)

But then most anti-gay activists believe that humans are qualitatively different from animals anyway, since that's another plank of fundamentalism.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:55 / 05.06.05
Such simple lives fruit flies lead. Eat, fly, fuck, die. This is an interesting finding and it will be a while till we see how it translates from ethology to human sexual psychology. Gtg, a big randy bluebottle just flew in the window. Must go shag it.
 
 
alas
02:49 / 29.06.07
Ganesh's blog just led me to this interesting article on "The Science of Gaydar" from New York magazine, exploring the recent scientific research into orientation and also the traits that make one "seem" (or sound) gay to others. Written by an out gay journalist, it's attentive to complexities and nuances. Hair whorls (gay men's seem to be more likely to be counter clockwise), the pitch of voice, finger lengths, handedness, and do women have orientations? all discussed here...One critique--perhaps a little too polite about J. Michael Bailey's stances. Worth a read. Share your thoughts!
 
 
Red Concrete
09:43 / 29.06.07
Very interesting review. One point, that he didn't get to until the last page, is that biology doesn't determine everything. Clearly the old views about pathological upbringing, and the modern opinions about homosexuality being a "choice", are wrong. But it is pretty likely that environment and culture affect whether a person comes out, or whether they may surpress any homosexual feelings and lead an apparently heterosexual life. The superficial "signs" of homosexuality, even more so - they're probably as culturally driven as most of the "signs" that allow people to tell males and females apart. It's a very complex trait, gayness is, and I don't think biology can possibly be all of it.

Given that, I think that the search for genes is a little odd - so what if homosexuality is genetic? Gene mapping for any trait has to pass ethical and scientific standards, including an evaluation of the benefit of the research, which I just can't see in this case.

“If I could tell my mother it’s a gene, she would be so happy,” said one, Scott Quesada

Is that enough - in order to reassure disapproving parents that at least it's not their "fault"? Maybe someone else can enlighten me.

I hadn't heard about this large genetic study (the upcoming NIH-funded one with 1000 gay brothers). I'll watch out for the results, but I wouldn't be optimistic that they will find very much, for several reasons.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:34 / 29.06.07
Clearly... the modern opinions about homosexuality being a "choice", are wrong.

Is this clear? Are people who believe themselves to be queer by choice deluding themselves? This doesn't seem self-evident or convincing to me.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:01 / 29.06.07
Surely no one believes in either biological determinism nor blank slatism (the irrelevance of biology)? Therefore, by far the most reasonable guess is that homosexuality is probably some interaction between a genetically driven predisposition and environmental and cultural influences. Further, it is also fairly likely that the relative importance of these factors isn't fixed, but varies from individual to individual.

I realise that the above is pretty vague, but it is worth keeping in mind when arguing for and against viable positions in this debate.
 
 
Red Concrete
00:36 / 30.06.07
Surely no one believes in either biological determinism nor blank slatism (the irrelevance of biology)? Therefore, by far the most reasonable guess is that homosexuality is probably some interaction between a genetically driven predisposition and environmental and cultural influences. Further, it is also fairly likely that the relative importance of these factors isn't fixed, but varies from individual to individual.

I think a lot of people do think a lot of things are biologically determined. It's not that long since, even geneticists started to accept the huge amount of interplay between genes and environment. I'm not really convinced that there is much of a genetically driven predisposition (although I do think there are non-genetic biological predispositions).


Is this clear? Are people who believe themselves to be queer by choice deluding themselves? This doesn't seem self-evident or convincing to me.

No, I disagree - were you not swayed by the article's review of the biology? I think it is fairly clear that it is both biology and choice, if you'll let me dodge the mind/body duality issue... So it's not entirely the choice of an individual, and it is not entirely biologically predetermined (nor predetermined by upbringing).

That said, my statement was a reaction against the either/or representation between the two views that the article made, with the former represented as the view of those religious persons that view homosexuality as a sin, and the latter as the "scientific" consensus. That website is interesting, Flyboy, though I had a little trouble with some of the statements on the "Could you choose to turn hetero again?" FAQ page. I was not aware of that point of view, however, and I can sympathise with it. Do you subscribe to it?

Does anyone think that ascribing (and blaming) things on genetics has got out of hand? Is there a thread on this, or am I the only one? I found it disconcerting that both the disappointed mother, and apparently plenty of gay people as well, can both sit happily with the same "reason" for homosexuality. What is going on here - they can't both be tapping into the same social perception of "well it's genetic...", can they? And all the more disconcerting given that the evidence for a genetic link is scientifically quite weak (i.e. it's been inflated by the media).
 
 
xenoglaux
03:59 / 30.06.07
Perhaps the question we should be asking is, is heterosexuality genetic? Or better yet, is sexuality genetic? I do think the focus on queer-identified people is disconcerting. Furthermore, I have a hard time reading about whether or not gayness is genetic, because it implies that there is only one other alternative, and that is straightness. Surely there are more than two sexualities. Even if you want to keep sexuality at its simplest level, you'd have to concede that there are bisexual people. Do they get lumped in with the gay people?

What I'm getting at is that gay is the "alternative" sexuality, while straight is the norm. I believe (and I'm not alone in believing) that sexuality is a continuum, not a binary genetic code. I also think that sexuality must be mostly biological, because I had plenty of opportunities in my childhood and beyond to "turn gay." I tried; it never happened.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:51 / 30.06.07
I'm not really convinced that there is much of a genetically driven predisposition (although I do think there are non-genetic biological predispositions).

I'm not sure I understand the distinction here. Biology comes to down to genetics at some point, right? Maybe you want to argue against a "gay gene", but thats why I used the clumsy phrase "genetically driven predisposition" - I think we need to get away from the simplistic models that often operate in these debates.

Furthermore, I have a hard time reading about whether or not gayness is genetic, because it implies that there is only one other alternative, and that is straightness.

Although it really shouldn't, you know. For instance, if I say that eye colour is largely genetic (I don't know, but it wouldnt surprise me if there were environmental factors, perhaps only while the foetus is in the womb, which influences eye colour), then that doesn't mean that there are only two eye colours - blue and brown. They may be the main eye colours, but actually anything to do with genetics almost certainly implies something like a continuum of variation, because thats the way that things work. Height is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors, but one would hardly conclude that there are only two heights - tall and short - even though there may well be situations where distinguishing between two height classes may well be useful.
 
 
xenoglaux
15:39 / 30.06.07
Height is influenced by both genetic and environmental factors, but one would hardly conclude that there are only two heights - tall and short - even though there may well be situations where distinguishing between two height classes may well be useful.

Perhaps I misspoke... It is true that genetics implies a continuum of variables. What does not is the current discourse on homosexuality vs. heterosexuality. And that discourse is now being applied to the general population's interpretation of scientific data, and even scientific research itself. Else why would scientists be looking for a "gay gene" in fruit flies, if they knew that sexuality is a continuum? I suppose you could argue that, but it seems to me that the discourse of binaries concerning sexualities is so entrenched in popular understandings that even if science were to assert that sexuality is a continuum, we would still interpret it as binary. Does that make sense?
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:16 / 30.06.07
Else why would scientists be looking for a "gay gene" in fruit flies, if they knew that sexuality is a continuum?

I dont know exactly, of course, but if I were researching this I might well be interested in fiding out how (or even, more controversially, if) biology and genetics play a role in sexual orientation. Thats got to be pretty hard in humans and much, much easier in fruit flies. Thats at least a plausible reason to look. I think you may be seeing science too strictly as consisting of the contributions made to these sorts of public debates, whereas many scientists have quite different motivations much of the time.
 
 
alas
20:59 / 30.06.07
I think the article does a pretty good job of grappling, throughout, with the complexity of the interplay between genetics, environment (in utero and otherwise), and culture--and it seemed to me that in many ways, that's the point of the article. The writer mentions on page 3 that most lgbtq people aren't "hungering" for this research, and that many are dubious of its value, and even deeply concerned that it will result in techniques to make sure that queer kids aren't born. Then he gives a pretty clear overview into the forces that drew the initial studies into queer identities, particularly gay male identities.

Furthermore, I'd note that he began discussing the complexities of interplay between genetics and environmental factors on page 2, and introduces the idea of a matrix--which is a more complex model than even a continuum or spectrum, earlier on that page: "Instead of picturing gender and orientation along a line, with straight men and women on either end and gay people in the middle, he [i.e., the Ontario-based psychological researcher named Anthony Bogaert who re-sorted Kinsey Institute data] suggests, a matrix might be a more accurate way to map the possibilities."

So, I don't think the article in any way indicates that either the writer or many of the scientists are approaching sexuality in such a simplistic way. However, in further answer to this question of xenoglaux's--

Even if you want to keep sexuality at its simplest level, you'd have to concede that there are bisexual people. Do they get lumped in with the gay people?

...part of the reason I said I think the writer may be too kind to J. Michael Bailey is due to this exact problem. Here' the part of the article that most caught my attention:

In many other studies, though, lesbians have appeared less unique than gay men, leading some people to wonder if their sexual orientation is innate. Michael Bailey—who, as a heterosexual researcher, is a minority in this field—even doubts the existence of female sexual orientation, if by orientation we mean a fundamental drive that defies our conscious choices. He bases this provocative gambit on a sexual-arousal study he and his students conducted. When shown pornographic videos, men have an undeniable response either to gay or straight images but not both, according to sensitive gauges attached to their genitals—it’s that binary. Female sexual response is more democratic, opaque, and unpredictable: Arousal itself is harder to track, and there is evidence that it defies easy categorization. “I don’t yet understand female partner choices very well, and neither does anyone else,” Bailey wrote me in an e-mail. “What I do think it’s time to do is admit that female sexuality looks in some ways very different from male sexuality, and that there is no clear analog in women of men’s directed sexual-arousal pattern, which I think is their sexual orientation. I am not sure that women don’t have a sexual orientation, but it is certainly unclear that they do.”

He contends that what they have instead is sexual preference—they might prefer sex with women, but something in their brains can still sizzle at the thought of men. Many feminist scholars agree with this assessment, and consider sexuality more of a fluid than an either-or proposition, but some don’t. “I think women do have orientations, but they don’t circumscribe the range of desires that women can experience to the same degree as men,” says Lisa Diamond, a psychology professor at the University of Utah, who is writing a book on the subject. “For women, there’s more wiggle room. You can think of orientation as defining a range of possible responses, and for women, it’s much broader.”

Bailey stops short of saying that lesbianism is a myth (although he has notoriously declared that true male bisexuality doesn’t exist and dismissed many transgender people as peculiar sexual fetishists, drawing lasting enmity from gay and trans groups). But it may be less hard-wired. And it appears to have separate triggers and correlates that haven’t been identified yet. In studies of twins, there is a lower correlation of sexual orientation between female siblings than male siblings, for instance. “We’re at a place,” agrees Diamond, “where everyone agrees that whatever is going on is quite distinct between the sexes.”


What especially annoys me, based on the reporting I've seen of Bailey's work, is that he uses pornographic videos to measure sexual response and ultimately as the basis for his sweeping claims about gender sexuality and orientation. He seems to have no qualms about judging people's ethics and morality based on their self-reported perceptions of their sexuality when it doesn't jibe with his research, and falls just short of calling people "deluded" whose experience doesn't fit his limited research.

For example, many women (and probably men, too) are really not primarily visually- oriented in their sexuality, probably for a whole slew of reasons. I, myself, really love being spoken to in the dark and fantasy narratives; sexual videos can be fun, but they're not my primary focus. And most of them are created by and for straight men. I would like to know more about J. Bailey's process for selecting videos for the viewers, but I am quite certain that responses to visual stimulation is not a universal index of human sexuality, as the reports of his work that I've read seem to suggest. But that seemingly doesn't stop him from asserting that female orientation probably doesn't exist, along with bisexual men and transgender people etc.

I wish he were more clearly taken to task in this article, and some others I've read, for asserting, even in "email conversations" such potentially damaging and sweeping conclusions based on such limited evidence that can not fully legitimate the scope of such claims. That's not how science is supposed to work, as far as i know.

(I'm also concerned Diamond's work as it is reported here--"For women there's more wiggle room." In general, I wish that psychologists would more carefully remember to qualify: "For most modern, Western women, there seems to be more wiggle room..." It's possible that in her work she makes it clear that her claims are limited to that group, but very often psychologists speak about human pscyhology as if it is universal, timeless.)
 
 
Red Concrete
23:04 / 30.06.07
I said: I'm not really convinced that there is much of a genetically driven predisposition (although I do think there are non-genetic biological predispositions).

Lurid said: I'm not sure I understand the distinction here. Biology comes to down to genetics at some point, right? Maybe you want to argue against a "gay gene", but thats why I used the clumsy phrase "genetically driven predisposition" - I think we need to get away from the simplistic models that often operate in these debates.

It doesn't necessarily always come down to genetics. The article mentions both epigenetics and the uterine environment as two non-genetic mechanisms which have been linked to homosexuality (and that research is much more convincing than the genetic research IMO). I didn't want to get too technical, though I could dig up some references if you like. These are mechanisms for a trait which are not contained in the individuals DNA sequence, and therefore not genetic, and not heritable in the normal sense. Also they are not (directly or easily anyway) detectable by the type of family studies they are planning.

Genetics doesn't imply a dichotomy, there are genetic models that are consistent with a continuum, or a matrix if you like (they are similar things when it comes to describing a quantitative trait). But I'm arguing that non-genetic (commonly simply called environmental) factors are probably more important in this case. That includes a huge range of things that more often than not force a continuum. It's a bit of an artificial category because it could include epigenetic factors, uterine environment (which may depend on maternal genetics, environment, etc), upbringing, diet, education, climate, culture, etc. Many of these affect biology, and if they do it early enough in life, it can become a "biological predisposition" to developing in a certain way later. There's no clear line between nature and nurture, in fact it's not a useful distinction.

xenoglaux said: Else why would scientists be looking for a "gay gene" in fruit flies, if they knew that sexuality is a continuum?

Well probably the "gay gene" terminology is from the mass media, or at least a PR section, although I don't know that. Scientists can be interested in dichotomising because it is easier to analyse. If you can breed a "gay" fruit fly by changing one gene, while that isn't necessarily discovery of "the gay gene", it means you have shown that genetics can be responsible for a behavioural change in sexual preference (analogous in some ways to human homosexuality).
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:00 / 01.07.07
It doesn't necessarily always come down to genetics.

Absolutely, Red. We are on the same page here, and agreeing that environmental factors are just as important.
 
 
Red Concrete
22:41 / 01.07.07
I agree with that statement, Lurid!

While trying to track down that fruit fly paper from above, I found this one from around the same time, which investigates social factors interacting with genetics in fruit fly homosexual behaviour. They used a fruit fly strain that shows homosexual behaviour (apparently due to impairment of a gene associated with pheromone perception), and showed that social interaction also seems to affect behaviour in various ways.

I'm not going to go into the results - you can read tham if you like - for one big reason. That being that I don't think this means anything to human homosexuality, except maybe the broadest possible conclusion - that both genetics and environment are probably important. Reading over those results with this thread in mind, I started to wonder how they might extend to humans, but they just can't. Fruit flies don't do much in their lives, as pointed out above, and their homosexual behaviour seems to be based on not realising that they're interacting with a male according to the limited perception they have of such things. Also the male-male interactions seemed to be as much aggressive, as sexual in tone.
 
  
Add Your Reply