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The nuclear push

 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:25 / 19.05.05
The Lib Dems brought the issue of nuclear power up in parliament today. On the 2nd May Blair announced that he was going to upgrade Trident, this is the only news source I can find that covers it. With the ongoing attempts to block wind farms in this country I think this is an extremely important issue.

Nuclear power leaves waste, the half-lives of radioactive waste last for thousands of years. Decomissioning a power station costs a helluva lot of money... estimated at $300 million. It seems to me that the waste particularly leaves us with a pollution problem as big as landfill sites, can a serious environmentalist be in favour of nuclear power as a result of that problem?

I'd like to know if anyone here is in favour of nuclear power, why they think it's a good idea and how they feel about the nuclear issue as it's linked to New Labour?
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:03 / 19.05.05
Weeeellll, I have heard it argued - someone help me out here - that nuclear waste and its associated pollution is ultimately more envornmentally friendly than carbon emmisions. That is, nuclear waste fucks some animal and plant life, but has a negligible impact on the large scale condition of the planet. I'm not sure how a good environmentalist can really choose between the two, but I'm also not sure how a political realist avoids having to make such a choice.

Something about sounds a little misanthropic to me (or the appropriate generalisation to animals), in that it reminds me of those people who love to tell you how insignificant the human species is, begging to be put out of its puny misery. I think, to answer your question, that nuclear power is a big problem (though I'm not in love with wind power either - solar is more likely a good bet as far as I can tell). Nuclear weapons, on the other hand, are a spectacular expression of insanity.

As for New Labour...it is a disappointment, but not an unexpected one.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:07 / 19.05.05
Sorry, I just read the links a bit more carefully. 10 billion pounds on upgrading an ineffectual nuclear deterrent. I suppose, in a sense, you should see it on a par with an entertainment budget for diplomats - it is wasteful but buys influence. Thats a lot of Cava, man.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:29 / 19.05.05
I wish they'd stick to Cava!
 
 
lord henry strikes back
07:19 / 20.05.05
Personally, going by the articles I've been reading about this, I think nuclear power is the most effective stop-gap solution. As I understand it, while green energy (wind, wave, solar etc) must be the long term aim the UK is about 30-40 years away from being able to produce the bulk of its energy needs through these means. Given that the life span of most power stations is (roughly) 20-40, and allowing for some dove-tailing at the end, this means that the last generation of pollution creating power plants will be built over the next decade. With all of the above in mind, and accepting that it may cost a bit more finacially, I would rather be dealing with 40 years of spent nuclear fuel than 40 more years of fossil fuel emissions.

Also, we need a campaign to change peoples opinions of wind farms. When will people realise that everything is a 'blight on the landscape' for the first 20 years, before it becomes 'an essential part of our cultural heritage'.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:39 / 20.05.05
It seems to me that the waste particularly leaves us with a pollution problem as big as landfill sites, can a serious environmentalist be in favour of nuclear power as a result of that problem?

Well, Lovelock is, and he's pretty much the definition of 'serious environmentalist'. Clearly, it would have to be a stopgap. What's not clear to me is whether that's actually a practical measure - obviously, if you ask the industry, they say yes. But the cost of Nuclear is debatable, and the ability of the industry to supple a large additional amount of power within the time frame is unclear - at least to me. It looks more as if any new power stations would be starting up around about the time we'd like to be phasing them out.

And then there are the security/safety considerations.

Against that, of course, is the possibility that nuclear research is something we need to pursue for other reasons - science, space travel, whatever. And everyone would still like to see usable fusion. Well, a lot of people would.

What I feel about Labour's position, specifically, is that I don't trust it. I don't believe Blair is capable of standing up to a serious lobbying effort. I fear that we'll be leveraged into adopting NP for the wrong reasons and under the wrong conditions, and at the cost of alternative power sources. Certainly, the industry has a ghastly track record in this respect. Look at Salter's Duck:

In 1985, the first full-scale pilot plant was built in Norway and produced electricity at 4p/kWh. However, in the same year, the UK Government cancelled all research on wave power. The reason for this action was a secret report, produced by the Advisory Council on Research and Development which recommended saving the £3M being spent on research. At that time £200M was being spent on nuclear research. Indeed, the nuclear lobby and Government, were pushing for the Sizewell B nuclear power station, and were afraid that cheap wave power would undermine the nuclear programme. Thus, wave power had to be stopped. Evidence pointing towards deliberate ‘dirty tricks’ came to light in 1990, indicating a clear policy from Government and the nuclear industry to make wave power seem more expensive. Some of these devices included: deliberately altering the views and conclusions of the consultant engaged to assess the technology; ‘adjusting’ certain figures to make construction costs appear fifty times greater and the reliability of the transmission cables seven thousand five hundred times less reliable; postulating very low resource availability (Prins and Stamp 1991). .
 
 
Jack Vincennes
10:20 / 20.05.05
There's more on recent attempts to promote (not the word I want, but the word I want requires 'PR' to be a verb) nuclear power plants here. I don't think there's anything about Trident, but I closed the browser window by mistake halfway through reading and you only get one article a day. A lot of it relates to what lord henry mentioned about the lifespan of power plants.
 
 
sleazenation
13:53 / 20.05.05
The Nuclear debate has many aspects. As Lurid points out, one of these is that the possession of a credible nuclear deterrent is more of a political necessity than something that is of practical benefit. It buys some measure of influence on the world stage, but more than that it also ensures the UK some measure of independence from other nation states (leaving aside the fact that the delivery system that British nuclear weapons use are American).

To clarify, if Britain and/or Europe doesn't want to be ignored and sidelined even more than it already is then it needs to have its own independent capacities. This applies as much to military and technological resources (such as the European version of GPS, Gallileo) as much as it does to nuclear technology (weapons or power).
 
 
Axolotl
14:11 / 20.05.05
I think it is important to seperate the debates abot nuclear power and nuclear weapons. In my opinion nuclear power has many positive aspects and may well prove to be vital in reducing our use of fossil fuels and CO2 emissions. Nuclear weapons however have few if any redeeming features and the UK has no need to waste further money on them.
 
 
sleazenation
15:01 / 20.05.05
So, Phyrephox - do you reject the notion thay Lurid/L'Anima Sperduta outlined and I underlined that nuclear capacity is something that commands influence in the wider world? If so, could you detail your reasoning?
 
 
Morpheus
18:43 / 20.05.05
You really need to figure out what your going to do with this place first.
 
 
Axolotl
08:00 / 23.05.05
Sleazenation, I agree that nuclear capability does translate into a certain influence in world affairs. However as one of the Nuclear Weapon States under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and a permanent member of the Security Council I'd argue that the UK has got as much influence as it's going to through its nuclear capacity. I would also argue that our current nuclear capabilities give us sufficient "nuclear clout" without needing to spend further money on upgrading our capabilities.
 
 
sleazenation
09:25 / 23.05.05
I'd agree that an increased amount of nuclear weapons is unlikely to increase Britain's influence, but to maintain it's current position on the UN security council in its own right it is going to need to retain a nuclear weapons capability. Part of the process of retaining nuclear weapons capability is replacing existing technology as it becomes obsolete. Retaining obsolescent technology is not a credible viable alternative.
 
 
Axolotl
10:55 / 23.05.05
True, though I believe our current treaty obligations require us to try and reduce our nuclear capabilities, and what better way to do so than by phasing out Trident as they become obsolete (which btw is circa 2025). Plus you have the hypocrisy of telling other countries that they can't have nuclear weapons while continuing to develop our own weapons program. If the reason you use to justify the maintenance of our own weapons is that it translates to greater power in the world then it will more than likely re-affirm countries' desire to become a nuclear power.
 
 
sleazenation
12:03 / 23.05.05
I believe you are correct on international treaties, specifically the Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) requiring signatories to reduce their nuclear arsenals. unfortunately it appears that many countries don't pay much attention to the NTP (see the BBC's Q&A overview to the NPT). Most egregiously, the US's plans to develop and test new weapons, including anti-ballistic missiles, the earth-penetrating "bunker buster" and perhaps some new "small" bombs seem set to further erode the importance of the NPT.

I'm currently minded to think that with so many states with nuclear weapons technology the NPT is dead in the water, too compromised at this point to work. Something else needs to be put in it's place...

On Trident, it takes a long time to develop new weapons, and technology in military services requires a longer shelf life than in the commercial sector. The work on Trident's replacement (by which I mean the nuclear warhead since under the NPT Britain has to produce it's own warheads but can buy-in delivery systems...) needs to begin now o be ready for 2025, by which time it will already be obsolecient, if not completely obsolete.

Which leaves us with the hipocrisy that appears to be enshrined in the NPT. I am not too sure what, if anything can be done about this. The Pandora's nuclear box is already open. I think we can all agree that nuclear weapons in the hands of terrorists who have less reason than states not to use their capabilities, the question is how best to ensure that does not occur. I am not convinced that the deeply flawed and already circumvented NPT is going to prevent it.
 
 
Axolotl
13:39 / 23.05.05
While I agree with your arguments that nuclear weapons give a country more influence, and that the NPT is deeply flawed, I'm just not sure that this justifies the UK in spending an estimated £10 billion in developing new nuclear weapons.
 
 
sleazenation
14:28 / 23.05.05
I guess it depends how you define 'new'. I tend to view any replacement to Trident as just that, a replacement, 'new' only by dint of it being a replacement for something that is 'old'. The £10 billion cost of development of this replacement nuclear arsenal is simply part of the cost of maintaining Britain's current nuclear deterrant and a place at the big table of international affairs...

It's probably worth mentioning, as the graphic at the end of this BBC report shows, that Britain retains the smallest nuclear arsenal of any of the big 5 nuclear powers (ie the 5 permenent members of the UN security council). Britain's Nuclear deterrent is thought to be roughly equal to that of Israel, a country that has not signed up to the NPT and refuses to overtly admit to posessing a nuclear capability...
 
  
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