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Underground > Temple >

Magic and the Law

23:26 / 18.05.05

I currently work for a UK county constabulary dealing with a mix of emergency calls and general enquiries. Today one of the latter category callers asked an incredulous officer, “Is it illegal to hex someone?”

Now this question got me thinking about the ways in which I’d answer that question from the perspective of a civilian who is involved with law enforcement, and how far my considered responses might be sanctioned by the agency that employs me. Certain methodologies could be constituted as harassment or intimidation, or depending on their target fulfil some definitions of terrorism.

This got me thinking about magic and law in general. For example, there’s likely to be increased regulation in the sphere of therapy in the UK over the coming years that might significantly effect alternative practitioners.

So this is the thread for anecdotes and ideas on how practising magic is effected by the laws of the country in which you operate, whether that means bemused tolerance or ugly bias. Thoughts?

23:31 / 18.05.05

See also trouser's thread on shrooms.

02:18 / 19.05.05

Well, skulking around Graveyards, Libraries, and Huntington's famed rose garden in the middle of the night with candles and photography equipment will get you some attention from the cops.

On the other hand, once they find out what you're up to, they're usually pretty cool about it. Particularly the rose garden on Halloween. The cops pulled right up, stopped, stared at us around the circle; I waved, and then waved back and pulled out. Pretty cool, actually.

08:07 / 19.05.05

Is it illegal to hex someone?

My first answer to that one is 'only if they can prove it' but leaving that aside, any laws they change have to have some reason for them. If a practice could be seen as harassment or intimidation then yes it should be stopped, i.e. getting a piece of someone’s hair for something but either trying to take it without asking or going though someone’s bins that’s harassment. But if someone hasn’t had any concrete signs of a working but is going though a bad patch then blaming someone just because they may do occult work is not justifiable and luckily witch hunting won’t be brought in because in today’s age I don’t think it would work.

As for rituals in public space and the law I think it does depend on where and when. If you are peacefully doing something in an area where there isn't anyone who would object then generally I think you will be left alone.

Unconditional Love

08:31 / 19.05.05

after the repealment of the witchcraft laws in 1951, i cant see that a hex is illegal in any way, unless as already mentioned by others it infringes other laws.

people curse each other in the use of language quite alot it my experience, if not each other then generally they curse various social institutions, and some people take it upon themselves to curse themselves. a curse or hex is as simple as a spoken statement delivered with intent.

if the above is taken into consideration, then in some social circles hexes are the norm for jockeying for position in the political spectrum.

newspapers are hexing people all the time, wether it be corporate or state sanctioned hexing, it still amounts to a hex, to affect perceptions of an individual or group. generally to remove there associated glamour or knock them down a few pegs.

sections of society seem to thrive on cursing other people, infact most social groups have an acceptable prejudice attached, many more than one.

the whole of creation is a curse i tells ya.

trouser the trouserian

09:16 / 19.05.05

If someone's stupid enough to attempt to send another person a 'curse' through the post (or any other communication method) - and I know of a case in Bradford in the 1980s when a pagan sent his ex-girlfriend a curse through the post (it included a sheep's heart with photos of her nailed into it) then they could be charged under section 1 of the "Malicious Communications Act, 1998" whereby it constitutes an offence to send an indecent, offensive or threatening letter, electronic communication or other article to another person. Section 43 of the "Telecommunications Act, 1984" makes a similar provision for telephone messages. Both types of offence are punishable with up to six month's imprisonment or a fine. If there are multiple offences, the police are more likely to charge an offender with an offence under the "Protectionn from Harassment Act, 1997" which allows the courts to impose a Restraining Order and a maximum penalty of five years imprisonment.
If the offence is deemed to be racially or religiously-motivated, then the "1998 Crime and Disorder Act" may be invoked, whereby judges can impose a maximum of seven years' imprisonment.

09:30 / 19.05.05

Rather difficult to prove though, I would have thought. Unless the identity of the sender is made explicit in the cursed communication. An anonymous "black letter" or equivalent put through the letter box could certainly be considered harrassment, but even if you had a pretty good idea who the culprit was, how would you go about proving it?

trouser the trouserian

09:49 / 19.05.05

Gypsy
Well, in the Bradford case the idiot's new girlfriend had made some verbal threats to the recipient of the curse, intimating that she & idiot were going to 'curse' the ex-girlfriend. So when the sheep's heart turned up, it wasn't exactly difficult to figure out who was behind it.

There was a similar case in Hull where an owner of an occult shop had been subject to a week of abusive phone-calls followed by the receipt of a rather nasty curse object. Nowadays of course, its much easier for the police to trace the culprits of such incidents using phone records, DNA tracing, etc.

Neither of these cases were brought to court - the recipients of the curse objects sought help from their magical colleagues.

trouser the trouserian

10:20 / 19.05.05

By the way, UK practitioners interested in legal issues may be interested in "PEBBLE" - the "Public Bodies Liasion Committee for British Paganism'. PEBBLE is an umbrella body (including members of the Pagan Fed, Council of British Druid Orders, WiccaUK and Pagans in Public Service) which liases with the Home Office's Faith Communities Unit in order to provide consultation regarding laws and other issues which may affect UK pagans. PEBBLE have recently been working with Lord Lester in challenging the wording of the Charities Bill with regard to the charitable purposes and religious faiths.

10:33 / 19.05.05

So when the sheep's heart turned up, it wasn't exactly difficult to figure out who was behind it.

Would that count as proof if there was no record or witnesses though? Even if it was obvious to the person who the likely sender was, I don't see how it could be proven in the courts without something like DNA testing. Would the police go to the trouble of DNA testing for this sort of case? If you discount the belief in magic, it's mild - albeit peculiar - harassment at best.

trouser the trouserian

11:02 / 19.05.05

I don't know Gypsy - as I said, neither case went to court. It'd be interesting to find out though, if there have ever been any cases in the UK where 'cursing' came up.

Another area where magical activity can fall foul of the law is the carrying of ritual knives and swords, for example the athame. The offence of "having an article with a blade or point in a public place" is generally dealt with under Section 139 of the 1988 Criminal Justice Act. There is a clause in this section that allows a person charged to defend themselves if they can "prove" that they were carrying the article for "religious reasons" (this clause was inserted to protect Sikhs, btw). The burden of proof is upon the defendant.

Last August there was a case involving one Merlin Michael Williams, the ceremonial "sword-bearer" for a Druid order in Portsmouth. He was charged with possessing an offensive weapon after a security guard in a hardware store saw him with the sheathed 90cm blade strung over his shoulder. His legal counsel, "King Arthur Pendragon" said that there were case histories which set a precedent for Druid ceremonial swords not being considered offensive weapons. The CPS decided to drop the case.

Unconditional Love

11:03 / 19.05.05

its intresting how people seem to want to curse other people, places objects and things in general, the way i see gossip and scandal working is more a curse upon the relationships between things rather than a direct afront upon the thing(s) itself.liable and slander.