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It's a Man's World, Baby!

 
  

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ibis the being
19:51 / 18.05.05
As I'm sure I've mentioned a few times before, I do faux finishing and decorative painting, also some regular interior housepainting, for a living. I have my own company and do everything myself, and I know I'm professional, competent, and talented, but I constantly have to weather unwelcome commentary from men on the job and out in public.

The "cute" comments are obviously the lesser evil, but still irritating. A guy in line at Dunkin' Donuts glances at my painters pants and asks, "Have you been painting today, by any chance?" HA FUCKING HA. Only the 2,000th time I've heard that hilarious joke.

The condescending comments are absolutely maddening. Other painters on the job (when there are other painters on the job) feel the need to jump in and give me "tips" constantly, despite the fact that I am faster and better than most. I stopped shopping at a local paint store after they embarrassed me in front of my client by hijacking a color consultation and snorting, "I already decided you're getting semi-gloss for the trim."

I can brush off a certain level of [nonexistent]ball busting, but I admit I lose patience with that shit pretty quickly. Unfortunately I fear lashing back will only earn me the "bitch" label (today a painter said he didn't want to get yelled at for telling me I'd missed a spot the size of a fingernail on base coat trim). I often wonder if these guys are just threatened by the idea of being "beaten by a girl" in their profession.

So what's a girl to do?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
20:29 / 18.05.05
You're paranoid. Men treat each other like that, too.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
20:35 / 18.05.05
Smile wryly (try laughing even) at whatever they say, and "give 'em better than you get". Insult their manhood, their inferior wit, or any other faults they may have and do it skilfully with a twinkle in your eye. And whatever you do, remember to make sure you don't show any negative emotion in the exchange (never, never, never...). Ironically, I find those who "dish it out" the most can't take it, and often embarrass themselves when faced with these tactics.

Trust me, although some men may be threatened by a woman on a job, "banter" is par for the course if you're doing "manual work", whether you're male or female -- the younger you are, the worse the "grief" is. Maybe it's all that sweat and hormones, maybe it's frustration at working like a dog and aching every night, who knows? But I've worked with young, old, male, female, gay, straight, the posh and the "common", and everyone gets ribbed at some point. And if you bite, it only gets worse. Rightly or wrongly, it's all about showing you don't take yourself too seriously and proving you don't think you're better than anyone else.

Also, remember, the only way to silence continual criticism of your work is to work well and hard. Failing this, if someone keeps pointing out your errors (etc), do the same to them:

e.g. (N.B. SMILE) "Nevermind what I'm doing; look at the state of your 'cutting-in'. You been on the sauce again, or do I make you nervous?" (then blow them a kiss).
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
20:51 / 18.05.05
By the way, it isn't easy, and WE ALL get pissed off with it. Oh, and NEVER instigate the banter, even if you've just come up with a good "come back" and can't wait to get your "revenge"......
 
 
ibis the being
20:58 / 18.05.05
Trust me, although some men may be threatened by a woman on a job, "banter" is par for the course if you're doing "manual work", whether you're male or female -- the younger you are, the worse the "grief" is. Maybe it's all that sweat and hormones, maybe it's frustration at working like a dog and aching every night, who knows? But I've worked with young, old, male, female, gay, straight, the posh and the "common", and everyone gets ribbed at some point.

I've been on scores of construction sites, and I'm familiar with friendly ball-busting. Banter's all well and good amongst the crew, but I'm a contractor and it's important for the client to view me as authoritative. I'm not just one of the guys and they're not my crew. Having 50-yr-old Joe Blow from the "straight painting" crew stroll by saying I should have taped off a baseboard or something potentially freaks out my customer and/or makes me look incompetent. I don't see them doing this to the carpet installer, the electrician, or any other contractor on the job.
 
 
Shrug
21:07 / 18.05.05
I would suggest that you say something like the above.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
21:10 / 18.05.05
The "straight" painter probably doesn't know dick about carpet, electrical, etc.

Seriously, it has very little to do with your sex.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
21:17 / 18.05.05
It's happened to me before. You just need to stay confident, shrug your head, and tell the client to "ignore him, I think he was a Nazi before he changed his accent." (or hopefully something more tailored to that interloper's obvious failings; we all have them). I'll bet you know full well that clients are always worried while you're doing the job. Indeed, part of the job is "keeping them sweet" (which, is sometimes impossible). The proof (as they say) is in the pudding.

Also, don't be afraid to tell such wankers (NB. smile) to keep their nose out of it. If they get shirty, tell them that you are talking to your client and you don't appreciate them trying to show you up.

e.g. "Did I say anything when you almost dropped that open paint tin on the carpet?" (smile)
 
 
Shrug
21:27 / 18.05.05
Its probably good if you can consider if the problem has little to do with your sex. In anycase you will always have difficult people in the workplace, think about how you can resolve stand offs (comedy,smile), employ even a faux buddy attitude towards this worker following a simple explanation of what is and isn't appropriate might help.
Failing that arrange some scaffolding to topple.
 
 
ibis the being
21:29 / 18.05.05
The "straight" painter probably doesn't know dick about carpet, electrical, etc.

Well, he doesn't know dick about faux bois either.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
21:36 / 18.05.05
Now there's no need for that kind of language. Honestly, you trades-women!
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
21:43 / 18.05.05
Maybe you should turn round and say to him:

"Do you know anything about faux bois?" (smile)
 
 
Cailín
21:45 / 18.05.05
I can relate. Oh man can I relate. I work in an architect's office, as an architectural technologist (one who does most of the things an architect does, but hasn't got a license to practice on her own - yet). I look younger than my 27 years, and I'm short (5'-3"), so I get the whole package: I'm a little girl doing a man's job. I usually hand out business cards to the guys who doubt my abilities - it's got a snazzy design, and I have an obscure degree, so the letters behind my name cause confusion and that sometimes shuts them up. But really, I have no hard and fast rules for getting them to take me seriously - contractors, trades and clients are all a little condescending at times. Knowing what they do and being able to speak their language can be helpful (I brought a contractor down to size with a simple "cripes man, do you think you used enough Tuck Tape up there?"). Sometimes, though, they can't be convinced. I think so long as we aren't men, we're going to have to put up with being called Sweety, and being told how to do our jobs by some less able male bodies. When someone suggests I should really consider/think about/do something that I'm already aware of, I usually say something like, "Well, of course, that's already under consideration/in my notes/in progress. You know, there is a process to these things; they don't just happen as I will them." I'm working on a way to do this without being snotty, but, so far, snotty's actually working. Shame you can't send contractors for sensitivity training (which I'm not a big fan of, having had it, but at least the experience is quite embarassing). Good luck.
 
 
HCE
21:54 / 18.05.05
I always count my lucky stars that the crew I worked with when I did construction-related work was comprised of the sweetest guys imaginable. I've had plenty of grief walking by construction sites, but never while working at one.
 
 
astrojax69
21:54 / 18.05.05
thought about a sex change?

always thinking outside the square...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
22:51 / 18.05.05
Well, he doesn't know dick about faux bois either.

I bet he knows something about taping, though.

I'm not saying that no one's giving you shit, I'm saying they probably aren't giving you shit because of your sex. People give each other shit. I'm saying, it wouldn't not happen if you were a man.
 
 
ibis the being
00:46 / 19.05.05
Well, I mean, not to pull up the oldest argument in the book, but I think you kind of have to have had the experience of being a woman in the workforce (any profession, really) to pick up on those more subtle forms of sexual discrimination. It's a difference between "Kid, I know better and I'll show you how" and "Darlin, you're not really cut out for this work so let me give you a hand." And I'm not going to bore everyone by getting into the ins & outs of faux finishing versus housepainting, but I can assure you that a straight painter can't advise me even on matters of taping. We have some tools and materials in common but the processes and techniques are completely different.

Whatever. I'm glad CailĂ­n can relate at any rate.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:12 / 19.05.05
Ibis, I've worked as a painter, a welder, a carpenter, a finisher, a demolisher, a conservator, a lifter, a thrower, and a scraper. I've even fitted out a tugboat. There were occasionally guys who helped me out and showed me things, but this was very rare. The great majority of the men I worked with treated me like a fucking moron. They treated everyone like a fucking moron. This is because they had no respect for anyone who did not have direct power over them. It is not about your sex. It is self-defeating for you to believe that the reason you're being treated this way is because you're a woman. It's not.
 
 
Cailín
01:25 / 19.05.05
It is not about your sex. It is self-defeating for you to believe that the reason you're being treated this way is because you're a woman. It's not.

When they know that by the chain of command you out-qualify them, outrank them, can have them removed from the job, and they still call you sweety, stare at your tits and try to tell you how to do your job, believe me, it's about your gender. Pretending it's not and just taking it isn't going to make it any better. I'm not apologetic for being a woman in a "man's" profession, but I know that I have to be twice as good in my job to get the same credit as a man - I've gone to job sites with my male colleagues, and they don't spend nearly the time I do warding off unwanted "advice".
 
 
grant
01:28 / 19.05.05
I'm a man, you know (ba-BAH-duh-bum-BOMP!)
but it seems like cultivating archness might be the best way to go, defense-wise -- making yourself out to be, like Michelangelo to their lumps of clay. If that's what you're after.

I live with a lot of gender swiping in my profession, much of it preconscious (tabloid journalism -- many women, many chauvinists). I have not a clue how any of my female colleagues & superiors could get around some of it. But the smiling definitely seems to throw off the worst offenders.

I also want to learn about faux techniques from you. I likes to do me some painting. This probably isn't the right thread for it, though.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
05:14 / 19.05.05
Cailin, you can fire people you outrank for undermining your authority (or, depending on the individual, explain to them that they are undermining you--they may not even realize it). I guarantee that your male counterparts have to put up with some other form of guff--basically, whatever form of guff will bother them. Black workers are treated as shiftless thieves and Italians are considered to have mafia ties. I am frequently considered a "faggot" because I bring a book to work, don't like sports, am not vocally racist, etc. And, you know, the "faggot" on the job site has a hard time getting things done. But I like doing the work and these guys are basically douchebags who suffer a miserable existence, so who gives a shit, really?

This is bringing back so many memories. I used to work with a carpenter named Tony who carried a hatchet around in his belt. You'd be minding your own business and CHUNK, he'd throw the hatchet about 4 inches from your nose. He thought that was hilarious. He was careful not to do it to anyone who might be expected to throw it back. His own mother called him Chicito Feo.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:13 / 19.05.05
I've worked as a painter, a welder, a carpenter, a finisher, a demolisher, a conservator, a lifter, a thrower, and a scraper

We totally need a Barbelith construction detail. When I move, I will try to bring it over from the US to do my next flat.

I'm happy to accept, with no experience of construction whatsoever, that gender is a reason why workers might patronise, belittle or undermine somebody with the power to get them sacked. In which case, without wishing to ruin any livelihoods, why not get them sacked? Explain to them that this behaviour is unprofessional and endangers both their livelihoods and the success of the project, and that if they do not know how to behave around the people who pay for the job then they should leave the talking to you. If they don't get it, have them sacked. Lather. Rinse. Replace.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
07:10 / 19.05.05
I guess I'm probably taking the wrong tack here. I'm irked by this topic the way you might be if I came in here complaining about how needy, manipulative and irrational women are. I do feel that way sometimes, when I feel I have cause to, but that would say more about me than anything else. Anyway, ibis, I'm sorry you're having a tough time at work.
 
 
mistress_swank
07:34 / 19.05.05
I can't believe you have to put up with such overt sexism! I agree with the others. My dad's best advice (for fighting, but it works with everything else, too), "Don't ever start it, but if someone starts with you, make damn sure they don't get back up for a second swing."

I also find that switching their tactics around on them(calling men "Sweetie" or "Darling" while doing something technical, for instance) really unnerves them.

In my office, which is heavily male-dominated (I work in software development and analysis), I've taken a tack that's worked really well. I'm not a logical person and I'm not a great analyst, either. But what I have done is made myself a niche -- I know the arcane business side of our work EXTREMELY well. People come to me, ask me questions and I am the undeniable ruler of my particular parts of the roost. Nobody quotes paragraph numbers of obscure government guidelines like I do. It takes a lot of ground work to build up that kind of respect, though, which you may not have time to do as a contractor.
 
 
Spaniel
10:08 / 19.05.05
The problem with Haus's advice is that men often don't know when they're being sexist. A possible way round this is by setting out boundaries from the get go - telling your colleagues/subordinates that certain language is inappropriate and that you know how to do your job. Obviously the difficulty here is in coming across as a humourless arsehole.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:08 / 19.05.05
Rather what I said. If they don't know they are being sexist, tell them. if they continue, fire them. If you can't fire them, talk their employer into firing them instead.
 
 
_Boboss
11:56 / 19.05.05
'being a woman in the workforce (any profession, really)'

not at all. come join us here in publishing, the women are in charge and the atmosphere is rosy.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:17 / 19.05.05
I'm the only full-time employee (as opposed to director or temp) with a Y chromosome in my company. Although that changes on Monday. But, still...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:20 / 19.05.05
Not that I have a point or anything.
 
 
Papess
12:22 / 19.05.05
You are changing your Y chromosome, Flyboy?
 
 
Persephone
12:37 / 19.05.05
There's also --I work for a decorative painting firm, but not as an artist-- that the straight painters sometimes feel threatened by the specialty painters. So there's a whole class-based hatred, too.
 
 
ibis the being
14:42 / 19.05.05
I'm irked by this topic the way you might be if I came in here complaining about how needy, manipulative and irrational women are.

I can understand that, but I'm not making sweeping generalizations about the entire male population - only this common character you find in the construction industry. I'm not engaging in man-bashing at all, so I'm sorry if my thread topic came off that way. In fact I have almost the opposite problem, where I actually like most of these guys I run into at work and tend to be a little too happy-smiley in the face of sex-based condescension, and suppress my irritation so we can just get along.

the straight painters sometimes feel threatened by the specialty painters. So there's a whole class-based hatred, too.

That's definitely part of what's at work on the job (though not in the case of retailers and salesmen obviously). Today for example, the old salty dog who's been really getting on my tits lately was bragging loudly about "teaching" me how to roll out of a 5-gallon bucket - I've always used a tray because it's actually the better, less messy way. Another painter called out that maybe I could teach Salty Dog how to paint. Ha. Of course the old guy launched into a tirade about how ain't no one can teach him how to paint, he's been paintin for 35 years and ain't no one can paint a window faster, etc etc.
 
 
grant
15:36 / 19.05.05
"Trompe my l'oeil, bitch!"
??
 
 
Papess
16:30 / 19.05.05
While this isn't my job, because let's not get started on the male dominance in my profession, I do play pool quite a bit. I am damn good at it, but I am constantly dealing with men who are trying to tell which shot to take, what english to put on it, and how I am not holding my cue correctly. I tilt my head, look helpless, nod my head with a smile and take my shot. Then I kick their ass.

Unfortunately, this strategy (the "playing dumb" routine) is only helpful in non-professional situations, and when "faking out" your opponent.

The worst, however, is when a guy stands behind me while I bend over the table to make my shot. I take my game seriously, and those jerks who don't, fall prey to such distractions when it is their turn.

SUCKERZ~!
 
 
Persephone
17:56 / 19.05.05
Yeah, but what I'm saying is --there are power differentials pulling in different directions. While you're saying "It's a man's world," somebody else is saying "It's The Man's world" & I think in this case you're The Man.
 
  

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