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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Stalking pete doherty

11:02 / 18.05.05

Ok- so by and large this forum is thankfully free of Pete Doherty and his legions of understanding 15 year old fans. This is a thread about the documentary that was cobbled together from film maker/ assault victim Max Carlish's year of filming Doherty.

This made for one of the most terrifying, hilarious and by and large cringeworthy doco's i'd ever seen.

Here's the story, University lecturer/ part time film maker/ libertines fan follows/ stalks Pete Doherty and Baby shambles around the country- Max's interviews seem to consist of him telling Pete 'the camera loves you' and telling him he's 'more talent than Kurt Cobain'.

Carlish has a history of mental illness which culminates with him breaking down on Camera after Doherty refuses an interview screaming- 'I know Pete million times better than any of you', to a small throng of fans...

The key tragic/comedy moment comes when Doherty agrees to 'talk about what ever you want...' and the camera runs out of film... Carlish swears they bonded immediately after- do we believe him?

"Max inside Pete in Kate.
Max up Pete inside Kate.
Max in Pete on top of Kate.
Max up Pete inside Kate."

anybody else see this?

11:21 / 18.05.05

I caught it. I didn't like Max at all, but I did just step in at the point where he was swearing and ranting at a bunch of teenagers. Plus he was just odd, having the camera point at him naked for so long, un-nerving. The key point for me was when the manager left court and Max tried to act as though it was a real big story, 'Where's Pete!' kind of thing, and the manager just looked back and laughed 'hi, Max' in a manner that said 'you're that joke that Pete keeps hanging around.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:30 / 18.05.05

It served as a terrible insight into just how far people are willing to degrade themselves if they think it will win them the approval and affection of people they think are better than they are. Max tells Pete he is beautiful. Pete ignores him. Max tells James Pete is beautiful. James tells Max he is fat. Pete tells Max he is fat. And so on... I've seen this behaviour before, hell there have been times when I've done it, and the object of the adoration doesn't necessarily even need to be famous.

On the one hand Max is a tragic figure for our times. On the other hand, it's hard to feel sorry for someone so relentlessly self-pitying and self-obsessed (how much footage of himself brooding on public transport did he shoot, one wonders?). Oh, and it's very hard not to laugh like a drain at somebody who bangs on about rock'n'roll and then panics when ver kids get a bit rowdy:

"Stop the madness! There could be thousands of pounds worth of damage! STOP THE MADNESS!"

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:52 / 18.05.05

I wasn't that bothered about this, not really being that arsed about Doherty, but having read all the reviews at work (and now this thread), it seems I may have missed something a lot more interesting. Did anyone tape it?

13:58 / 18.05.05

"we'll always be together, together in electric dreams..."

could be more quotable than an entire series of little britain...

14:00 / 18.05.05

Did anyone tape it?

i can make copies if someone did? is there a repeat scheduled?

Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!

14:01 / 18.05.05

I had to turn it off after the bit where they put subtitles on a bit of Pete (THE ICON! LETS TALK ABOUT HIM LIKE A DEAD GENIUS!) speaking, when he was being perfectly coherent.

14:14 / 18.05.05

yes my better half kept demanding the remote and skipping channels then skipping back- a little like watching a car crash- you shouldn't look but... hence i'd love to see a video of it...

15:13 / 18.05.05

I had to turn it off after the bit where they put subtitles on a bit of Pete (THE ICON! LETS TALK ABOUT HIM LIKE A DEAD GENIUS!) speaking, when he was being perfectly coherent.

Seems to be something that's on the increase, this - BBC4's recent Monsoon Railway doc was so full of it that I almost thought I'd turned Ceefax on by mistake.

15:19 / 18.05.05

'I am rock and roll...'

It's almost bound to be repeated, I'd have thought.

16:20 / 18.05.05

I'd very much like to know how a man seemingly obsessed with shooting as much dreadful hand-held film as humanly possible managed to become a University lecturer in Media Studies. Or is that just me? Is that 'out of focus upside down footage of the documentary maker and little else' thing all the rage now?

And apparently Max has a BAFTA, does anyone know for what? I'd be interested to see another project of his - maybe, to give him the benefit of the doubt - his obsessive Pete-love made this film difficult for him.

See, even though it was fascinating in an "Oh my God" kind of way (especially the dancing bit and all the references to making a film being a lot like coming) I think the overseeing of Channel 4, with a narator other than Max is what salvaged the wreckage of home video into some semblance of watchableness and had very little to do with Max himself.

17:54 / 18.05.05

I'd very much like to know how a man seemingly obsessed with shooting as much dreadful hand-held film as humanly possible managed to become a University lecturer in Media Studies.

Am I right in thinking Max Carlish suffers from bipolar affective (manic-depressive) disorder? If so, it'd go some way in explaining the apparent incongruities in the way he and his achievements/obsessions are presented. Also makes the documentary-of-an-aborted-documentary format seem a tad exploitative...

09:38 / 19.05.05

And apparently Max has a BAFTA, does anyone know for what?

He was involved in the production of a BAFTA award winning documentary about the National Opera House called "The House." He also produced a rather enjoyable series for Channel 4 a few years ago called "SF-UK" which was about British sci-fi.

Am I right in thinking Max Carlish suffers from bipolar affective (manic-depressive) disorder?

Yes you are.

I'm finding it practically impossible to participate in this discussion because Max is a good friend of mine, and I'm not enjoying seeing the slaughtering he's getting over this (not so much here, as elsewhere). He is a man with his share of problems and I just want to say that at the time all this took place he really was not very well.

All Acting Regiment

09:53 / 19.05.05

I think the whole story's a bit tragic really. I mean, good documentary or no, this guy obviously loves Pete more than any of his "fucking stupid gangly teenage idiot middle class fans", yet doesn't get anything out of it.

Are there any similar films about other "stars" (Bowie?) to compare it to?

...not that I'd compare Doherty to Bowie.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:13 / 19.05.05

Well what made it compulsive viewing was that the way Max related to Pete is only a twisted exaggeration of the way all fans relate to the object of their adoration - and there's not exactly a consensus on where you draw the line between 'healthy' fandom and 'unhealthy' obsession. Y'know, some people have never idolised a musician or a comics writer in their life, some people only do it to one person, some do it all the time...

He also produced a rather enjoyable series for Channel 4 a few years ago called "SF-UK" which was about British sci-fi.

Ha! Much discussed on Barbelith at the time due to Gregor Morrizovski's inclusion; much mocked for the way the presenter talked: "What will BRITISH sci-fi think of next?" I did think there was something very Barbelith about Max in a funny way...

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:53 / 19.05.05

He is a man with his share of problems and I just want to say that at the time all this took place he really was not very well.

Well, yeah. Pretty clearly... and at this point you have to ask how the Hell he got himself into that situation. Rather like the truly excruciating fanfic about the experience, which achieved the near-impossible feat, if only very briefly, of making me feel sorry for Pete Doherty.

On the plus side, it's goood to hear he is feeling better now. Possibly humiliating oneself in front of the nation by making a documentary in which one humiliates oneself in front of Pete Doherty is a good way to achieve closure.

Flybs - I think I get what you mean, here - that, confronted with one of their idols, many Barbeloids would behave in an equally cringemaking way, and it's only circumstance that happpened to inflict it on Carlish. I can see that, but we're into the interesting question of where being a fan ends and being a crazed fan begins, and also of how a particular obsession begins and takes over - the most interesting thing about the article, for me, was the "If I was gay, I'd say I had a crush on him. I'm not gay. But I did have a bit of a crush on him" bit - perhaps the ways that men get to admire other men if sexualisation is verboten _are_ disfunctional. There's certainly something a bit sweaty and hormonal about the way some people around here react to my beautiful and perfect fiancé, George.

12:44 / 19.05.05

I didn't want to sell the pictures ( of Doherty taking heroin, to the UK tabloids, ) but I did want to use them as leverage to meet up with Pete again and complete the film.

( From the Guardian link. )

Without knowing the details of what happened, in the light of that statement it does a bit ironic that Pete Doherty's due in court soon to answer blackmail charges, and not Max Carlish.

It does seem as if it would have been better for both of them if they'd never met.

13:22 / 19.05.05

Erm, sorry, it looks like the case was thrown out of court...

14:11 / 19.05.05

The whole crazed-fan thing made me cringe but I think if it had been shot looking like a BAFTA award winning film-maker had made it, then for me the pete-love might have been less of an issue. I do have issues with poor camerawork anyway, but Max's shots were unbelievably bad. They all looked like amateur home-video on a new and unfamiliar camera; shaky, wobbly and weird angles (and by that I don't mean stylishly weird, I mean holding the camera incorrectly).

Dreadful footage but brilliant commentary would have been acceptable, or even professional looking footage but lazy 'keen fan' commentary at a push. But for me, it was the complete lack of professionalism coupled with the pete-love that made him come across as little other than a crazed fan.

23:32 / 22.05.05

so you don't mean peter doherty?

Tryphena Absent

00:33 / 23.05.05

But for me, it was the complete lack of professionalism coupled with the pete-love that made him come across as little other than a crazed fan.

But it was really a film about a man with bipolar going through a rough patch. Losing his identity, trying to reaffirm it with all of those shots of himself moving around and around, trying to connect with someone else who he admired unhealthily. I thought it was excrutiating but a very good film- it invoked a thousand emotions. I had to leave the room every 5 minutes because I found it so unbearable.

10:43 / 23.05.05

I still think he should have paid more attention to his camera angles.

Actually, you're right. The channel 4 film about Max was very good, but Max's attempt at the Pete Docherty film (within the Channel 4 film) was not (in my opinion) anywhere near the beginnings of a very good film about Pete Docherty, which is what it was supposed to be.

Channel 4 took the story of Max and his illness and made an excellent programme asbout him, but for a BAFTA winning film-maker, even taking into account his illness, I think Max's filming style and indeed content left a lot to be desired.