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Citizen B120e/7...

 
 
Tezcatlipoca
06:30 / 16.05.05
...your reading of this thread has been approved. Please proceed to the link in an orderly fashion.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/queensspeech2005/story/0,16013,1484810,00.html

So what now? Mass public burnings of the things outside Westminster, or typical British stoicism and mass passive acceptance?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
10:07 / 16.05.05
I've given the thinking response elsewhere, so here's the feeling response.

I'm not sure what the nation will do as a whole, but personally- and I've said this since I heard of the idea- the minute I get mine, it'll be snipped in half with scissors, or burnt, else destroyed in some other way, and I hope others will follow suit.

This really is the only way. People might say- "But won't that stop you getting in places?" "Won't that stop you getting benefits?"- to which I say it may well do- but I don't care. I don't care, because if society now expects my identity to be shrunk to a flat peice of card, I no longer wish to be part of that society- I no longer want an identity within it.

Others might want to deface their card in an amusing way, call themselves "kali deathgod" or something- not good enough for me, I'm afraid. This is the serious stuff. This is like the time I saw a government van full of tracking equipment- "don't tell anyone", mewed various aquaintances. "it's not our right to know". Bollocks, mate. ID cards for the snip.
 
 
w1rebaby
10:35 / 16.05.05
I don't know what I'm going to do. I suspect it will depend on what the actual legislation involves.

Bear in mind here that the actual holding of an ID card isn't what matters. It's the interconnected database system behind it that's the point. If you're in that, it doesn't matter whether you have a card or not.
 
 
_Boboss
11:12 / 16.05.05
cut the fucker up after you've been forced to spend your eighty quid? - can't pay, won't pay, that used to work. won't pay, won't pay is the remix.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:38 / 16.05.05
Though the database is the main problem, it can only have so much information in it- the information up to the point the ID card was given out- getting rid of the ID card surely hampers the database's information gathering prowess?

As a second, has anyone else noticed the synchronicity between "id" and "I-D":id being the thing that controls the ego (controls the individualistic impulses),I-D cards being a control mechanism for the population.
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:49 / 16.05.05
I'm really hoping the backbenchers give the executive a bloody nose on this one.

I personally will refuse an ID card, the most cheeky part being they expect me to pay for the fucking thing!
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:50 / 16.05.05
You've all seen this, little gem right?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:54 / 16.05.05
On one hand I believe in the state and don't mind myself being on a database. On the other hand the government are screwing with various groups human rights adequately enough already. I say we go to parliament and burn things, fuck rebelling once they've been brought in, by then it will be part of a law that will take years to overturn... if at all.
 
 
Spaniel
11:54 / 16.05.05
Legba, I may be wrong about this but I've always assumed the databases concerned are just the databases that already exist. That being the case, tearing up your ID card won't help a whole lot. Your info will be updated whether you've got a card in your pocket or not.
 
 
Spaniel
11:56 / 16.05.05
It's the DVLA sharing with the Tax Office sharing with the police sharing with the NHS, etc...
 
 
w1rebaby
12:30 / 16.05.05
Though the database is the main problem, it can only have so much information in it- the information up to the point the ID card was given out- getting rid of the ID card surely hampers the database's information gathering prowess?

Only in the sense that if you've not got an ID card, you won't be able to use it. Limiting your interactions with services that categorise you according to your ID will minimise your database footprint, certainly.

You still exist on the databases though, unless you can entirely avoid interacting with the state at all, which is unlikely. You pay income tax (I assume). You may be arrested at some point. And you've probably already interacted with systems that will contribute to the overall one. Once data gets in there, it's not likely to fall out; it's going to go round and round, database backups and transfers and consolidations, links and merges and errors caused by hungover coders tied to an unrealistic deadline set by some sales twat in a shitty suit. Oh, and the time will probably come when not having transactions linked to your ID is considered in itself a suspicious sign - as is the case with credit records today.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:37 / 17.05.05
He's right - you're already on the databases, you have been for years. If the government want to look into anything relating to you, they have the right (under the DPA) to get information out of any organisation that has it, and most of the criminal investigations legislation means that that organisation will be legally forbidden from telling you the appropriation of infomation has occurred. The major consequence of the spread of communications technology is that now all these databases have or will have the ability to speak to one another. The possession or otherwise of ID cards won't change a thing. I used to find people for a living, and it's amazing how many databases the ordinary man in the street can access, let alone corporations, let alone governments...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:13 / 17.05.05
Any chance you could start a thread telling us how, so we keep the upperhand?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:50 / 18.05.05
Where exactly does the upper hand lie in being able to violate other people's privacy? As a protest against the possibility that your own privacy might be invaded? Seems a bit conceptual for my tastes...
 
 
Nobody's girl
10:39 / 18.05.05
According to Blunkett speaking to the Home Affairs Committee in 2004, the penalty for refusing to get an ID card will be a civil offence incurring a fine of 2,500 pounds. This is because civil cases are less likely to get legal aid and it prevents ID card martyrs languishing in prison. As pointed out on this anti-ID card website the flaw in this is that the rich and those backed by criminal organisations could simply pay the recurring fine and avoid ID registration.

Am seriously considering taking advantage of my dual nationality to avoid this Orwellian imposition on my privacy.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:46 / 18.05.05
I rather think Legba was hoping to be able to foil their wicked searches with cunning legal hacks and so on.

Jack's already said it, but I knew a PI who could get your credit card and NHS files overnight. So, I mean, access to your data is not the issue.
 
 
fuckbaked
02:32 / 20.05.05
fridgemagnet said: "Oh, and the time will probably come when not having transactions linked to your ID is considered in itself a suspicious sign - as is the case with credit records today."

I don't know if I'm understanding you. Are you saying it's consitered suspicious if someone's transactions are done without a credit card (how else would your transactions be linked with your credit record?)? Geez, I don't even have a credit card.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:37 / 20.05.05
I will refuse to sign up for an ID Card if 3 million other people agree not to too.
 
 
Grey Area
09:14 / 20.05.05
I don't know if I'm understanding you. Are you saying it's consitered suspicious if someone's transactions are done without a credit card (how else would your transactions be linked with your credit record?)? Geez, I don't even have a credit card.

In the UK, it appears that your credit record is linked to your address. You do have a bank account of some sort, yes? And partake of services connected to your address, such as electricity, water, heating oil, whatever, yes? Your bank has your address, and records of payments going out. If you pay everything with cash, it's still possible to correlate the payment of bills with the address linked to that bill, because you're forking over a set amount which you would probably have withdrawn a couple of days before settling the bill. If you write a cheque, it's even easier, because then the bank has a record of who cashed it.
 
 
w1rebaby
14:57 / 20.05.05
Are you saying it's consitered suspicious if someone's transactions are done without a credit card (how else would your transactions be linked with your credit record?)? Geez, I don't even have a credit card.

Your credit record isn't things that you've bought with a credit card - it's any time you've been given credit, and things like bankruptcy and county court judgements and so on. Because it's public data and fairly easy and cheap to query, it's treated like a de facto identity test, to prove that the identity you're claiming actually exists. The actual data is used as well of course to determine your status as a financial risk.

For this reason, if you have a blank credit record you're immediately suspicious, as I found out when I went to the US (these things don't carry across the Atlantic). You're a non-person. I'm told that they assume that you've been in prison, because how else could one possibly get through life without borrowing money? I had to pay vast deposits on cellphones etc - I would have been better off with a bad credit record, assuming it wasn't too bad.

The issue of over-fuzzy matching methods and random distributed data corruption resulting in random instances of credit-related persecution is a separate one, but it's widespread and one of the best illustrations of some of the potential ID problems. The proposals to incorporate credit checks into the CAPPS II airport screening system were slated by even the fluffiest network news programs.
 
 
fuckbaked
19:22 / 20.05.05
Grey area said: "In the UK, it appears that your credit record is linked to your address."

Ok, so I feel like a dumbass for not mentioning that I'm not actually in the UK, I'm in the US.

"You do have a bank account of some sort, yes? And partake of services connected to your address, such as electricity, water, heating oil, whatever, yes?"

I have a bank account, but I set up it a few years ago, when I was living with my parents (the bank still has their address as my home address), and it's not connected to any payments made from their house. I pay 2 bills: rent and my phone bill. And I've been thinking about getting an untracable cellphone and disconnecting my landline.

fridgemagnet said: "Your credit record isn't things that you've bought with a credit card - it's any time you've been given credit, and things like bankruptcy and county court judgements and so on."

Yeah, I did realize that it's not a record of things you've bought with a credit card, but I've heard people say things like "I got a credit card so that I could establish a credit record", and had this very fuzzy idea of credit card companies giving out good credit to people who can handle having a credit card (and I know I couldn't) and bad credit to people who can't.

But...I just remembered that I've signed up for financial aid for school for the fall, so I guess I'll end up with credit of some sort after all....

*sigh* I feel really stupid for the things I said in my previous post, as well as this one. How the hell does everyone know all this stuff? I guess I'll just file this under "things that will bite me in the ass later in life". Oh man that's a long list.
 
 
fuckbaked
19:27 / 20.05.05
Oh yeah, and sorry about rotting the thread with this crap.

I feel like everything I post is off-topic enough to constitute threadrot, but still ontopic enough that I don't get moderated. I think I'm stepping on people's toes and killing threads without even meaning to, and I want to get past this stage in my Barbexistance...
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:21 / 24.05.05
"Gwyneth Dunwoody, the redoubtable Labour MP for Crewe and Nantwich, told him in no uncertain terms that there were Labour MPs who were seriously concerned about ID cards: "There are some of us in this house who are deeply uneasy about this scheme, who believe that it is a question of civil rights.

"It is one that disturbs us very greatly and the history of police forces or governments holding every element of information about people's lives is not that they are always used responsibly, but used in some instances by governments for the worst possible reasons," she said."


From this Guardian article.


Looks like the backbenchers are flexing their muscles on this one, wouldn't it be lovely to see Tony and Charlie get a bloody nose on this issue? Vain hope, I know. We'll probably just see a bunch of cosmetic amendments to mollify the rebels.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:43 / 24.05.05
We Ok, so I feel like a dumbass for not mentioning that I'm not actually in the UK, I'm in the US.

I can't find the article now but it would seem in the last month that the US has brought in an ID card scheme for it's citizens. If a suggested failure rate of (IIRC) 0.1% didn't stop our government, how many Americans would that leave high and dry?
 
 
xenosss
13:31 / 24.05.05
The US is indeed looking to implement a national ID. Do a search for "Real ID" or go to http://www.epic.org/privacy/id_cards/ for more information. Gotta fight off all that terrorism and all... *cough*
 
 
fuckbaked
12:44 / 25.05.05
AAAAh WTF?

from Citizen-times.com, "There is a time and a place to debate a national identification card. Or perhaps we should say there was, because just such a card was tucked away in an unrelated bill that cleared the Senate Tuesday night.

"A spending bill totaling around $82 billion was approved 100-0 by the Senate. We don’t have much to say about the bill, designed mainly to fund efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq for the next few months, except to note it brings spending on those fronts to around $300 billion."


from the same article:"A good question is why such a bill would have new driver’s license rules in them, rules that Sen. Lamar Alexander, R-Tenn., says create national identification cards.

"It’s a good question to which no one seems to have a good answer."


Isn't it a bit, um, dishonest to stick a controversial piece of legislation into a totally unrelated bill because you know that the Senate will have to pass the parts of the bill that don't concern ID cards, thus passing the part of the bill that does?

Also I found something in a blog about a conversation the blogger had with the guy that wrote the Real ID bill:

"I fear that the no fly list will become more than just a terrorist watch list. With this infrastructure in place, whats to keep some group from saying that people with unpaid child support shouldn't be allowed to fly? Whats to keep a state from not allowing people with unpaid parking tickets from flying? I don't want this to become an enabler for them. His [Congressman James Sensenbrenner, the guy who authored the bill] only real answer was that nobody is forcing you to fly. Flying is not a right. If you want, you can get in a car and drive somewhere without a license and hope you don't get pulled over. That is actually what he said. I was so surprised by this that I was unable to express the necessary shock and horror by this belief to him."

this is from a particularly informative blog:
"REAL ID is expensive. It's an unfunded mandate: the federal government is forcing the states to spend their own money to comply with the act. I've seen estimates that the cost to the states of complying with REAL ID will be $120 million."

from the same blog:"If you haven't heard much about REAL ID in the newspapers, that's not an accident. The politics of REAL ID is almost surreal. It was voted down last fall, but has been reintroduced and attached to legislation that funds military actions in Iraq. This is a "must-pass" piece of legislation, which means that there has been no debate on REAL ID. No hearings, no debates in committees, no debates on the floor. Nothing."

It's true that it's not in the news. I thought maybe I just missed it, but I just did a google search of cnn.com to see what they're saying about it, and the only thing I could find on their website is two sentances tucked into an article about the war funds bill:"It also prevents states from issuing driver's licenses to illegal immigrants, stiffens asylum laws and provides money to finish a long-stalled fence on the border between California and Mexico.

"The immigration and asylum provision were a source of controversy and debate."


This is not just about preventing immigrants from getting licences, yet they seem to want me to think that. I did a google search of my local newspaper, and they have two articles on the subject, both of which say the legislation is about preventing illigal immigrants from getting drivers licences, and have no information whatsoever on the other consequences of this.

Fox news, oddly enough, has a bit more information. They at least say that it's a national ID, and they have some info on why it might be a bad idea, although they don't have any info about why it doesn't actually prevent terrorism. (I thought that Fox News existed solely to uncritically support Bush and the rest of the republicans while giving the illusion of providing information, so it's surprising to see them giving better info than other news sources. Not that I like those other news sources much)

Sorry that I'm just quoting stuff willy-nilly. I'm mad, ok. And since they're going to make our drivers licences into these national id's, the liklihood of getting 3 million people here to sign a statement saying they'll refuse to participate is null. Most people won't be willing to stop driving, and a lot of people won't be able to. I'd have to quit my job, not just because I would have a very hard time getting to work, but also because I'm required by my employer to have a drivers licence.

And why is this happening to our drivers licences? Driving should have nothing to do with this.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:40 / 25.05.05
Well, this is standard operating procedure for Governments anywhere. The British Government don't need to tie in ID Cards to passports and driving licenses, but if it were stand alone then it would be more likely that people would tell them to fuck off and take their ID Cards with them. Tie them in to passports and driving licenses, which people actually need and it's more difficult to shake them.

And my knowledge of the US Government is minute, but isn't it standard practice to attach completely unconnected bills together in the hopes that no-one will notice that while they are voting for the 'Endless Sunshine and Flowers for All' bill it has a secondary bill for 'Children to be Mauled by Rabid Foxes' attached to it?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:19 / 25.05.05
I'm ashamed that this thread devolved into an argument about data- I presume since you're paranoid that you avoid Oystercards, clubcards, nectar cards and all other manner of store linked cards. The worrying thing about ID cards is the amount of discrimination in this country, how they will tie into the electoral roll- we already have a problem with postal votes- and of course the institutionalised racism in the police force. How easy it will be to commit fraud as a government employee, you think we have a problem with identity theft now?

The very notion that 6 months after they come in someone won't have worked round the retina scan- it's really thick. This is expensive but mostly it's about a bunch of politicians loving their ideas so much that they've forgotten everyone in the world is different from them, they clearly don't understand how fallible systems are.
 
 
Axolotl
15:26 / 25.05.05
Especially the biometric functions which with current technology is basically unworkable. Facial recognition isn't 100% accurate. Finger printing is, but only if you print all the fingers, which takes too long when used at checkpoints. Iris recognition is worse than fingerprints but better than facial recognition, but is more expensive to carry out and has its own flaws. The whole thing is a mess, and that's before the private contractor has screwed it up, as they are sure to do (see every large scale government computer system ever).
 
 
A fall of geckos
08:43 / 27.05.05
I find this pretty worrying.

From the link:
The United States wants Britain's proposed identity cards to have the same microchip and technology as the ones used on American documents.

The aim of getting the same microchip is to ensure compatibility in screening terrorist suspects. But it will also mean that information contained in the British cards can be accessed across the Atlantic.

Obviously I'm incensed at this. I find the concept of compulsory ID cards to be a disturbing thing in itself – the possibility of this data being shared with other governments is quite frankly frightening.
 
 
Peach Pie
16:06 / 27.05.05
I think eventually you won't be able to get prescriptions without them, work, drive, etc...
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:28 / 29.05.05
Perhaps the spiralling costs of ID Cards will deter the "Well, I've got nothing to hide" contingent.
 
 
xenosss
15:32 / 29.05.05
In response to all the "unconnected bills" stuff and such.

And my knowledge of the US Government is minute, but isn't it standard practice to attach completely unconnected bills together in the hopes that no-one will notice that while they are voting for the 'Endless Sunshine and Flowers for All' bill it has a secondary bill for 'Children to be Mauled by Rabid Foxes' attached to it?

While riders such as the Real ID are nothing new, it is certainly a huge extension. If the two bills, for the funds and for the national ID, had no connection they would not be able to be combined. However, the national ID is being presented as a means of fighting terrorism, and is thus related to the funds being sent to Iraq. Of course, whether or not the new ID system will actually be effective is highly controversial. Most see it, as the posts here have shown, as simply a costly means of lowering privacy rights.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
01:47 / 11.06.05
Nina's point is the important one - your data is all over the place, and Joe Schmo can tell you more about your history than you can. The important thing is that a centralised ID system will simply make it easier to commit ID theft, and to fuck people over. Not the Government - it's nothing to do with civil liberties, and any one who thinks so is incredibly naive they think they haven't already lost what they're still fighting for several years ago. Welcome to the information age, idiots.

This is an issue of control of that information. You do not have that control. But, at present, criminals have to be fairly fucking creative to gain control over your information, and there's a certain risk involved at every step that they forge or fake your ID. Centralise that ID, make it a universal thing, and you're only making it easier for them. One step, instead of five or ten.

Live in the UK? Go to 192.com, and sign up for some free/paid-for credits, just as 'Joe Man-In-The-Street'. Then type in your postcode. You now have the full names of everyone on the electoral roll in your immediate area, even if you've never bothered to introduce yourself as a neighbour. Free directory enquiries on the same site gives you the home phone number of any of those people not ex-directory. In some cases, 192.com, incredibly, can actually provide you with mobile phone numbers for these people. So now you have the names and addresses, and possibly phone numbers, for everyone in your street. You can use then this info to find their previous addresses.

If you already have their date of birth (a piece of piss if you know their birthday and their age, as you might do if, for example, you've met them more than once and asked the right questions), you can then fuck them over in any number of ways, if you feel like it. There is no civil liberties issue. It's likely you've already bought into that by reading this post.
 
  
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