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Impeachment on Horizon? Congress Asks Bush To Explain Damaging War Memo

 
  

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sleazenation
21:41 / 31.05.05
US admit Koran 'mishandling'.

The Guantanamo Bay prison commander, Brigadier General Jay Hood, said he had found that the Koran had been mishandled on five occasions since late 2001.

Three of the cases appeared to involve deliberate mishandling, while the other two incidents were apparently accidental, he said.

Four cases involved guards and one an interrogator.

Brig Gen Hood said those involved had not violated the rules in place at the time.

The inmate who made the original allegation about the Koran being flushed down the toilet had retracted it, he said.


So, the main thrust of these of the Newsweek report was correct - even US military sources admit that the Koran has been deliberately 'mishandled' in it's facilities and that there was an allegation that a copy of the Koran was flushed down the toilet. This was later retracted. Kind of makes you wonder if it was just a unusually developed sense of fair-play that prompted the detainee in question to retract his claim...
 
 
Slim
23:36 / 31.05.05
For all I care, they could light the Koran on fire and then extinguish it with urine. I don't consider it wrong to mishandle it even if it is a holy book. The only question should be whether the benefits gained from desecrating the Koran (although I'm not sure there are any) outweigh the negative publicity and ill-will in the Muslim world that would come as a result. In my opinion, it's not worth it. I don't think it's an effective tool for inducing people to talk and it's obviously causing a fair amount of backlash.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:58 / 02.06.05
How do you feel about other forms of torture?
 
 
Darumesten's second variety
07:50 / 02.06.05
For me, mishandling the Quoram seems a child's game compared to the rest of tortures which are surely happening to the Guantanamo prisoners .. what do you think ??
 
 
JOY NO WRY
09:27 / 02.06.05
I think its pretty much the opinion of the detainees that counts in regard to something like that. Whether basically insulting behaviour like that can be considered torture is entirly another argument - but a state shouldn't be doing in private what it wouldn't do in public. You'ld never get any public offical flushing a Koran for the cameras.
 
 
Slim
12:46 / 02.06.05
How do you feel about other forms of torture?

I don't consider it torture.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:02 / 02.06.05
Funny how now they admit "deliberate mishandling," which they had previously categorically denied. But now they say "but hey, we didn't flush it down the toilet, even if we did horrible things to it otherwise!"

Unreal. And for this they pressured Newsweek to lie and retract the story.
 
 
sleazenation
15:37 / 02.06.05
I don't consider it torture.

The trouble is, I have a feeling that the guys that are beheading captives in Iraq don't consider what they are doing as torture either...
 
 
grime
16:28 / 02.06.05
The weird thing to me, is that some (most I know) conservatives won't ignore or even try to discredit the memo. I think that they won't see it as an indication of willfully misleading the public, but as just another neccessary step in the removal of Saddam and the spread of democracy in the middle east.

and:

Wouldn't beheading be execution, rather than torture?

I guess it all depends on how much time you take.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:37 / 02.06.05
Desecration of holy books is part and parcel of psychological torture. It's all part of the attempt to break someone down entirely, show them that you have absolute power over them, destroy everything they hold dear when they have no chance to do anything about it, attack any structure that might give them psychic strength to allow them to resist. Religious faith definitely falls under that category.

There's an interesting piece on Juan Cole's blog from a US officer who underwent mock captivity. The interrogators in the mock prison camp spat on the Bible and kicked it around. He said that was one of the things that made him feel the worst. Clearly this is a well-known tactic to the US.
 
 
ibis the being
20:03 / 02.06.05
Wouldn't beheading be execution, rather than torture?

It's obviously execution, but it's also a form of psychological warfare. Terrorists who perform beheadings know that this is a supremely disturbing spectacle to their enemies - that's why they do it on camera and release the tapes. To me, and perhaps to you and most Americans, the mutilation of the body and also the loss of life in a beheading is far more offensive than any desecration of a book, holy or not - but understand that mutilation of the Quran provokes an equally intense offense and horror in a Muslim prisoner. Both are forms of torture.
 
 
Slim
23:47 / 02.06.05
The beheadings conducted in Iraq are torture because when you take the time to saw through someone's neck at a leisurely pace, it's obvious that death isn't the only objective.

The trouble is, I have a feeling that the guys that are beheading captives in Iraq don't consider what they are doing as torture either...

I think they probably do.

It's all part of the attempt to break someone down entirely, show them that you have absolute power over them, destroy everything they hold dear when they have no chance to do anything about it, attack any structure that might give them psychic strength to allow them to resist. Religious faith definitely falls under that category.

I would say that in and of itself, flushing the Koran is not torture. It might be unpleasant and insulting but anyone who's been arrested would say the same about being locked in a metal holding cell. Routine interrogation is also quite unpleasant but I wouldn't call that torture either. I suspect that it's all in the eye of the beholder.

I'd be all for the desecration if I thought it would do much good but I don't think insulting a militant Muslim's religion is an effective way to get him or her to cooperate.
 
 
w1rebaby
11:01 / 03.06.05
It wouldn't be torture for *you*, clearly, but then you're not a devout Muslim and you don't care what people do to a Koran. I expect that there are things you would consider unjustified psychological pressure that wouldn't bother other people at all; a mujahideen who's been fighting all his adult life is going to be accustomed to some things we'd consider pretty horrific.

I would argue that there's no objective standard of what people "should" be disturbed by, and which would count as psychological torture, and what they "shouldn't" be, which doesn't. The question is what works on the individual. It's clear that the US considered that humiliation and degradation based on religion would be an effective tactic.

(I suspect that there may also have been an element of triumphalism and indoctrination of their own side - by getting soldiers to desecrate religious symbols, force people to break their rules etc, they get to feel victorious over the identified enemy ideology i.e. Islam and feel more confident of its inferiority.)
 
 
FinderWolf
20:26 / 08.06.05
Wow, suddenly this pops on Yahoo News' main page -- after a month of only being carried by 'alternative' sites and the story being followed only by people who already hate Bush:

'Downing Street memo' gets fresh attention
By Mark Memmott, USA TODAY
Wed Jun 8, 6:58 AM ET

A simmering controversy over whether American media have ignored a secret British memo about how President Bush built his case for war withIraq bubbled over into the White House on Tuesday.

At a late afternoon news conference, Reuters correspondent Steve Holland asked Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair about a memo that's been widely written about and discussed in Europe but less so in the USA.

It was the most attention paid by the media in the USA so far to the "Downing Street memo," first reported on May 1 by The Sunday Times of London. The memo is said by some of the president's sharpest critics, such as Democratic Rep. John Conyers (news, bio, voting record) of Michigan, to be strong evidence that Bush decided to go to war and then looked for evidence to support his decision.

The Sunday Times said the memo is the minutes of a meeting that British Prime Minister Tony Blair had with some of his top intelligence and foreign policy aides on July 23, 2002, at 10 Downing Street, the prime minister's official residence. The story said the memo indicates that Blair was told by the head of Britain's MI6 intelligence service that in 2002, the Bush administration was selectively choosing evidence that supported its case for going to war and ignoring anything to the contrary. The war began in March 2003.

"Intelligence and facts were being fixed" by the Bush administration "around" a policy that saw military action "as inevitable," the newspaper quoted from the memo.

"There's nothing farther from the truth," Bush told reporters as Blair stood at his side. "Both of us didn't want to use our military," Bush said in response to a question about the memo. "It was our last option."

Blair added, "The facts were not being 'fixed' in any shape or form at all."

Bush said that at the time the memo was written, no decision had been made about going to war. He pointed out that it was written two months before he went to the United Nations and asked for a Security Council resolution calling on Saddam Hussein to give up his weapons of mass destruction or face "serious consequences."

The Sunday Times' May 1 memo story, which broke just four days before Britain's national elections, caused a sensation in Europe. American media reacted more cautiously. The New York Times wrote about the memo May 2, but didn't mention until its 15th paragraph that the memo stated U.S. officials had "fixed" intelligence and facts.

Knight Ridder Newspapers distributed a story May 6 that said the memo "claims President Bush ... was determined to ensure that U.S. intelligence data supported his policy." The Los Angeles Times wrote about the memo May 12, The Washington Post followed on May 15 and The New York Times revisited the news on May 20.

None of the stories appeared on the newspapers' front pages. Several other major media outlets, including the evening news programs on ABC, CBS and NBC, had not said a word about the document before Tuesday. Today marks USA TODAY's first mention.

Some activists who opposed Bush's decision to attack Iraq have been peppering editors with letters and e-mails to push the media into more aggressive coverage. Last week, a group known as Democrats.com offered $1,000 to anyone who can get Bush to answer "yes or no" to this question: Did he or his administration "fix the intelligence" about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and alleged ties to terrorism?

"We want what the Michael Jackson, Paris Hilton and Star Wars stories have gotten: endless repetition until people have heard about it," says David Swanson, one of Democrats.com's organizers.

Robin Niblett of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank, says it would be easy for Americans to misunderstand the reference to intelligence being "fixed around" Iraq policy. " 'Fixed around' in British English means 'bolted on' rather than altered to fit the policy," he says.

Ombudsmen at both The New York Times and The Washington Post have been critical of their newspapers for not covering the story more aggressively.

USA TODAY chose not to publish anything about the memo before today for several reasons, says Jim Cox, the newspaper's senior assignment editor for foreign news. "We could not obtain the memo or a copy of it from a reliable source," Cox says. "There was no explicit confirmation of its authenticity from (Blair's office). And it was disclosed four days before the British elections, raising concerns about the timing."

---------------------------------------------------------
 
 
FinderWolf
12:45 / 10.06.05
also, moveon.org is doing an online petition to demand an explanation for the memo...
 
 
Malle Babbe
02:30 / 11.06.05
So how long before Fox News blames the French for the Downing Street Memo???
 
 
Slim
14:59 / 11.06.05
What makes you think Fox News is going to mention the memo?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:37 / 11.06.05
'Fixed around' in British English means 'bolted on' rather than altered to fit the policy," he says.

Really? I mean, here I am, sat in London, and Englishman born and bred, and... really?

Unfortunately (and bear with me, I may just be tired and hungover and therefore more pessimistic than usual) but it really does seem like Blair's insistence that we all "move on" from Iraq (cheeky fucker, considering people are still dying daily) is coming to pass... "endless repetition", while a worthy goal, and possibly the only way of keeping this stuff in the public eye, also has the downside that stuff that stays in the public eye becomes very boring to the public eye after a while, newswise. I don't really see what else can be done, however, and the fact that those on the "anti-invasion" side are steadfastly refusing to just give up and "move on" does at least give me SOME hope for humanity...
 
 
FinderWolf
16:44 / 14.06.05
Yeah, I thought this 'fixed around' thing was ludicrous, and the memo itself doesn't say "fixed around", it simply says "fixed." If this story gets more mainstream coverage, this pathetic linguistic explanation is bound to collapse like the load of crap it is.
 
 
FinderWolf
21:34 / 14.06.05
ok, I'm wrong about the actual quote from the memo, but I'm sure that "fixed around" doesn't mean the roundabout thing that silly person said it did.

Check it out:

great site with the full text.
 
 
FinderWolf
21:34 / 14.06.05
duh me, sorry, just re-read the thread and saw this same link was posted early on.
 
 
Morpheus
06:08 / 15.06.05
Did anyone see the press con. in Washington. They don't call it washing ton for nothin. Right on t.v. they said it was all hogwash.
Newsflash: Texas April 2002 Blair and Baby Bush talk about Mike Jackson and O.J. over Lonestar beers and watch old cowboy movies on the big screen, while the little ladies whip up some grub in the kitchen....nothin else happened.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:17 / 16.06.05
from CNN today: this was in their top 6 main stories on their front page:

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Some congressional Democrats, brandishing a document known as the "Downing Street memo," are insisting that the White House provide more information about what led to the decision to go to war in Iraq.

Rep. John Conyers, D-Michigan, and other Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee were conducting a public forum Thursday afternoon, prompted by documents that have surfaced from inside the British government about pre-war planning.

---------------------------------------------------
 
 
bobotheanticlown
04:28 / 17.06.05
QUOTE: Bush would have to be caught in the act, by someone with a camera, of having sex with Ari Fliescher while stabbing children with a crucifix for any "damage" to stick - the man is teflon.

this was said a wile ago, i know bout i doubt it would work- he just kall the barson who took the pickture a photo doctor, sure him foreverything the guy had and then ket the secret servase to arse rape him to death or somthing
 
 
w1rebaby
18:41 / 19.06.05
Just in case anyone here doesn't read American political blogs, here's the (deniable) counterspin - the memos were fakes. If bloggers do this of course and it turns out to be bullshit, which it clearly is, no official can be accused of lying. Expect it to be picked up by FOX et al quite soon.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:52 / 01.07.05
Blair commented on the memo the other day; not saying anything specific about the memo but just saying he's glad he did what he did and that Saddam was a danger, blah blah blah. it's very interesting how the mainstream media is treating the Memo like it mostly didn't exist...it seems they mention it about once every two weeks in some ancillary way.
 
 
at the scarwash
04:18 / 02.07.05
I heard a rumor from a friend who occasionally works with US Congressional staffers that the House Rules Committee (republican controlled, natch)wouldn't assign a room to the Democrats who wanted to discuss the memo. They ended up discussing it in the Capitol basement.
 
 
Baz Auckland
01:23 / 28.03.06
A newer memo?

The NYT is reporting (again) that war was decided on and all that way in advance...

Our diplomatic strategy had to be arranged around the military planning," the paper quotes David Manning, Blair's chief foreign policy adviser at the time, as noting in the memo. 'The start date for the military campaign was now penciled in for 10 March,' Mr. Manning wrote, paraphrasing the president. 'This was when the bombing would begin'," the paper continued.

The timetable came at an important diplomatic moment, the paper said. Five days after the Bush-Blair meeting, then US secretary of state Colin Powell was scheduled to appear before the United Nations to present evidence that Iraq posed a threat to world security by hiding unconventional weapons.

Stamped "extremely sensitive," the five-page memorandum had not been made public, according to the report. Several highlights were first published in January in the book "Lawless World," which was written by British lawyer and international law professor Philippe Sands.

In early February, Channel 4 in London first broadcast excerpts from the memo. But since then, The New York Times has been able to review the five-page memo in its entirety.

The memo also shows that the president and the prime minister acknowledged that no unconventional weapons had been found inside Iraq, The Times noted.


This sounds like the worst part...

Faced with the possibility of not finding any before the planned invasion, Bush talked about several ways to provoke a confrontation, including a proposal to paint a US surveillance plane in the colors of the United Nations in hopes of drawing fire, or assassinating Iraqi president Saddam Hussein.
 
 
Slim
02:15 / 28.03.06
Wait...are you telling me that Bush & Co. planned to invade Iraq without UN approval? Madness, I say. Madness!
 
 
sleazenation
07:15 / 28.03.06
Just out of interest, does anyone know how many surveillence planes does the UN have at its disposal?
 
 
ibis the being
13:28 / 28.03.06
Wait, we can't have a newer memo - no one's yet given a shit about the last memo!
 
  

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