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Re-becoming a Web Designer/Developer

 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:52 / 02.05.05
Greetings. I currently work as a print designer, and I'm looking to broaden my skill-set to include web work, although I've designed for the Web before and didn't really like it (mostly because of the frustration of testing/compliance for various different platforms/browsers).

Which standards/applications/languages are essential for me to know, to what degree, to become an entry level webmaster? Which standards/applications/languages are hardly used any more, and I wouldn't need to know them.

note that I'd rather learn (at least the basics) from the ground up, rather than in Dreamweaver/Frontpage/whatever. I plan on definitely re-learning Flash (I think the last Flash I used was 5.0) once I can get a copy of a recent release.

What is the anatomy of the contemporary Web Site? Please explain, briefly, technologies and what they're used for.

(I'm using http://www.w3schools.com as a reference, and I'm setting up a WordPress blog to learn some CSS and stuff).
 
 
lekvar
22:13 / 02.05.05
Tables are out. CSS is in.
Xhtml is the hot new markup language. It's essentially the same as html 4, but you jave to close all tags, and it's all done in lower case.

I don't know much about scripting languages, but the word on the street is that JavaScript is yesterday's news, replaced by dhtml and DOM.

Personally, I'm looking forward to SVG (scalable vector graphics) but I don't expect that to be widely implemented for a few years yet.
 
 
The Strobe
22:38 / 02.05.05
Surely: DHTML/DOM is heavily reliant on Javascript/ECMAscript?

I'll post more when sober, but seriously, forget Dreamweaver, forget slicing gifs and tables; XHTML, CSS are the way ahead. Bone up on web standards - not so you can get jobs, but so you won't be left behind. It also makes development way faster.

Languages: PHP, Perl, Python, for the open source amongst you; ASP.NET is the MS weapon of choice. I'd stick to open source, personally, nicer languages.

More later.
 
 
netbanshee
23:26 / 02.05.05
Going on what everyone else has said so far... look at these two sites to brush up on your stuff. In fact, I highly recommend buying Zeldman's book too.

Zeldman
A List Apart

Compliance and accessibility will be an easier road to get on when it doesn't have an effect on the projects you're currently working on. No bad habits to unlearn. The only thing that still bites, is browser testing. You still need to do it, but eventually you'll see what problems there are on a page before you check. Don't just worry about IE/PC.

I'd also try to take a somewhat active interest (even if you're not a code monkey) in PHP and MySQL scripting. Make sure that you have a system or webspace set up to handle these before you go off on it. I just hired someone to assist me with leveraging the power of database-driven, user-updatable sites and now there's no turning back. I'm finding PHP.net and O'Reilly's Dev Center to be good resources for this.

If you're interested in getting to know flash again, the latest package is 2004MX. As you'll see, it takes the scripting that was introduced in 5 and makes it a integral part of the experience (AS1 and AS2 now). You can still focus on design and animation like you always could, but knowing how to make it behave with script is where the good stuff is. Just make sure to export to flash player 6 to keep your flash-capable audience seeing things (7 is on its way to a good percentage of adoption).

Software (assuming you're a Mac-head):
BBedit - one of if not the best text editors to use. Great tools and no WYSIWYG crap.
Transmit - great lil' ftp program.
Dreamweaver - if you get StudioMX, it'll be your dev environment. You can still write only in code and it plugs into BBedit nicely.
FlashMX 2004 - if you want interactivity and animation, here's where you go. We'll see what happens with SVG as Adobe has now acquired Macromedia.
Browsers - make sure you have access to IE / Firefox / Safari and even Opera on PC/Mac to test how you're code renders.

There's more and more, but this should help. Search for design sites and inspiration stuff here on Barbelith to find some other places to go.
 
 
lekvar
18:29 / 03.05.05
Not to threadrot, but does anybody still develop with v4.0 browsers in mind? I use Safari 1.2, IE 6, the latest Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox, and Opera. I know some developers and designers say that you should support browsers as far back as Netscape 4, but what do you, the folks in the trenches, design for?
 
 
netbanshee
03:13 / 04.05.05
Well... that's the beauty of standards-compliance. You build once for many and let the design and functionality degrade naturally as the browsers get older. The content may not be as pretty in Netscape 4, but it's still going to function and be there. It also provides incentive for those who hold out a push to upgrade since the experience gets better.

I, personally, don't build anything prior to HTML 4.01 (though it's been a while since I've built anything other than XHTML 1.1 sites) but the needs of a client may vary. If they've invested in an architecture that requires certain browser compatibility, sometimes you have to still worry. I question though, is that specific job worth taking on?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:48 / 04.05.05
thanks all....i checked out the Zeldman book yesterday at the bookstore....looks interesting. what do you all think of "Peachpit Press" books for CSS/DHTML reference? I've had good experience with that publisher for photoshop/illustrator/quark, so I'm inclined to buy one.

Right now, I'm learning how to design using CSS by adapting the Wordpress default template to my own needs. Coupled with the extensive implementation of PHP, which I'm learning to work with, this will give me a crash course in these technologies. My new wordpress blog is The Face Knife.

It seems like the current standards - XHTML + CSS have been more or less the same since around 2000, but people are still designing w/tables and such? Is this a correct assumption? It seems like I'm having to learn less new stuff than I thought I would to design for these technologies, as the standards are pretty much the same since my last foray into them 4 or 5 years ago.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
23:08 / 12.05.05
I would suggest the Firefox Developer Toolbar, which is very easily the most handy thing of all time if you are trying to, say, make a custom css for wordpress.

Also, a really nifty site with a whole bunch of amazing CSS examples is CSS Zen Garden, which is full of generally amazing things.

Oh, about tables: the new trend is to make list (ul and whatnot), and css it up so you can manipulate it. A good example would be the wordpress sidebar, if you are messing with that.
 
 
The Strobe
13:11 / 13.05.05
Well, Alejandro, to be honest that's a load of cobblers.

The "new trend" is not to find something you'd have done and do it with a list. The "new trend" is to take something that, at its semantic core, is a list (say: a list of links in a sidebar) and mark it up as such. You then use CSS to alter the display to fit how you will. The Wordpress sidebar is, in fact, a succession of lists. Encased in a div.

Tables are not evil. Tables can still be used: for tabular data. They were never meant for layout; finally, people are cottoning onto this.

But there are some cracking examples out there of people who've got the wrong end of the stick and marked up a massive table of figures as a whole series of definition lists (dl, along with relevant dt and dd). This is clearly bonkers - it's precisely what tables are for!

So basically, saying "hey, the new thing is to use LISTS instead of TABLES" is entirely not true and very misleading. The new thing is to use lists for lists, tables for tables. Call things by their name.

And I was doing so well at staying away from this thread as best possible.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
19:56 / 13.05.05
Good point and thanks for catching me on it. I should have added into "for formatting" to point how tables were occasionally a tool in formatting, and now they are, well, tables.

Plus, I just think screwing with list data and CSS is really fun, but that's just me being a dick.
 
 
andrew cooke
13:57 / 16.05.05
someone mentioned svg earlier in the thread. i've been playing around with it, and it's pretty neat. but they're right - it's still some time away. how long away is harder to judge; i'm using a firefox build that has native support for svg and i guess it will be part of the standard release fairly soon. once that's common, svg could be big.

self link to images produced using svg (those are png's generated from the svg using batik; they're the end frame of animations (the lines "grow" like worms)).
 
  
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