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A non-prejudcial name for non-magic people.

 
  

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fuckbaked
03:12 / 18.05.05
Seth said:"The problem is that you end up with tons of words defined in the negative. It's substantially easier to define a positive something and just stick a non- in front of it if you need to describe the negative."

While it does certainly seem easier in the case of magick, it don't see this as always being the case. In the example I gave, that of the word neurotypical, there really isn't a word you can stick non- in front of to give the same meaning. I said non-autistic in my post to mean "people who don't have an autistic spectrum disorder", but that was misleading. The disorders commonly refered to as autistic spectrum disorders are autistic disorder, Asperger's syndrome, childhood disintegrative Disorder, and Rett's syndrome. The word autistic is commonly used to describe either people with autistic disorder, or people who have any of the pervasive development disorders. Thus, the word non-autistic is vague because in different contexts it would either mean neurotypical or it would mean someone who doesn't have autistic disorder, but could have another autistic spectrum disorder. "Autistic" is the only word I know of that's commonly used to describe someone with any autistic spectrum disorder. I guess it's a little odd that there isn't a word yet that's caught on to mean specifically "a person with an autistic spectrum disorder", but so far there isn't one, that I know of, so there really isn't the possibility of using a non-word. If there were, I probably wouldn't use the term neurotypical, since there are a lot of people who don't have autistic spectrum disorders who are not "neurologically typical".

Seth said:"Added to that remember that you're creating words for those who are and aren't into magic, thereby perpetuating many of the unhelpfully dualistic tendencies of language."

I don't see how it perpetuates the dualistic tendancies of language to use the word "muggle" any more so than to use the term "non-magical". They both create the same duality. And there's room in our language for people who don't fit into either category like "I'm sort of into magick" or something like that. Simply having a word for people who are into magick creates this duality.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
06:36 / 18.05.05

'Muggle' implies more of a value judgement than 'non-magician' - I mean, you just sound like a pretentious ass if you're calling someone a muggle. It's like calling someone a 'mundane.' It's as though the person referred to is somehow less fully formed than your own enlightened, noble visage that is likely creeping up your ass. The way muggle is used in Rowling's stories creates this connotation. It seems like the characters who talk about muggles as muggles display a naive underexposure to them, if not looking down on their status as non-magickers. "You live with muggles, Harry, what are they like?" Look in a damned mirror.

If you don't agree, go call someone a muggle, or get called a muggle. In my last multicultural English class, I got called a muggle for being white. It tends to piss one off a bit.

I agree that calling someone a 'non-magical person' still creates a dichotomy between practitioners and nonpractitioners, but if you call someone a muggle, you'll probably piss them off far more than if you call them a nonmagician. Thus widening the divide beyond any validity it has. And as far as this dichotomy being a complete creation of language, well. I don't really know anyone else who eats dirt in order to gain its knowledge of an area, or baptizes oneself with rainwater dripping down from buildings. Do you think some of this dichotomy comes from behavior? I'm not saying that lots of people don't practice magic (from fundamentalist Christians to certain poets to Inuit shaman), nor that magicians are somehow more evolved than people who don't practice magic, but typically magicians are better at working magic than nonmagicians because they, you know, practice. The degree to which one practices determines how much of a 'magician' you are or aren't. It's not a matter of one label or another, but one degree of work versus another.
 
 
Seth
07:12 / 18.05.05
The differentiation of people with autism and Aspergers is based on a broadly agreed set of diagnostic criteria, to my understanding. Magic is a much more slippery animal. We’ve had a few threads here over the years attempting to come up with an agreed definition, but the flimsy consensus we came to was based largely on the similarish beliefs and reading material of many people on the board.

Things become doubly hard when you try to define the negative of something so awkward abstract. Within the remit of this forum is included psychology, martial arts, religion and all the numerous and often wildly different beliefs and practises that people term as “magic.” The experience described by many people within religion is indistinguishable from accounts of magicians and shamans, so would a term to describe someone who wasn’t into magic necessarily apply to them? A huge number of them would hate to be described as being into magic despite broadly fitting the – admittedly very abstract – bill. Likewise NLP – a form of psychology – has been likened to a magical system (indeed, on my course they even taught sigil technique under a different name), again with the individual’s experience being considerably similar to that of self-defined practitioners. I’m more than a little dubious of any form of categorisation that isn’t self-defined, because of the uncomfortable ring of words like “muggle,” “chav,” “unsaved,” “gentile” and “nigger.” My discomfort extends to the diagnosis of neurosis, which I’ve observed can have the unhealthy suggestive side effect on the experience of the person being diagnosed. I have a personal disinclination to be defined by a term such as magician because I don’t feel some of the connotations are appropriate, and I have a tendency to resist being placed in categories by other people. I prefer to deal with people as individuals and listen to the words they use to describe themselves.

As I’ve been writing this I’ve been trying to think of instances in which I’ve had to use a word to describe people who aren’t into magic, and I’ve drawn a blank. Most of the time I change terms according to the person I’m communicating with, in practise speaking in what is aimed to be a shared shorthand so that I’m not excluding people based on the ludicrous amount of jargon that already burdens these ideas. Even then I can’t think of any instance in which I’ve thought a term would be useful or appropriate.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:33 / 18.05.05
What a weird thread. Do plumbers need a name to define people who are not members of their profession? Do they tie themselves up in knots over the insidious dualism implied by referring to themselves as plumbers? Lie awake nights fretting over the value judgement they may be imposing on the non-plumbing populace by calling themselves plumbers?

It's just a skill set and possibly an aptitude, not something that marks us as "different" from people without those specific skills and that particular aptitude. It makes you look at the world differently, but I should imagine that being a doctor or a fireman makes you look at the world differently as well.
 
 
fuckbaked
14:12 / 18.05.05
Charlie’s Horse said: ”'Muggle' implies more of a value judgement than 'non-magician' - I mean, you just sound like a pretentious ass if you're calling someone a muggle. It's like calling someone a 'mundane.' It's as though the person referred to is somehow less fully formed than your own enlightened, noble visage that is likely creeping up your ass. The way muggle is used in Rowling's stories creates this connotation. It seems like the characters who talk about muggles as muggles display a naive underexposure to them, if not looking down on their status as non-magickers. "You live with muggles, Harry, what are they like?" Look in a damned mirror.”

Ok, I actually totally agree with you on this. It was lazy of me to use the word muggle. I wanted to talk about the duality in language thing, and figured pretty much any word for non-magical people would do. Muggle was just the first word I could think of, and I was too lazy to go through the thread to find another word that's not offensive. My bad. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought that “muggle” would actually be a good word to use. I should have said non-hatter or something like that.

This is totally off topic, but I always thought it was rather brilliant how JK Rowling created a scenario in her books where muggles were the objects of prejudice and misconceptions. She doesn’t need to tell the reader that muggles don’t live up to the stereotypes because the reader obviously knows that. I think it creates a situation where the reader identifies with the stigmatized group (I’d like to say minority, although muggles are actually the majority), and it illustrates how separation between groups can foster negative attitudes toward the other group (like how kids who’ve gone to mostly white schools can have misconceptions about other races, or people who think the customs of their culture are inherently better than those of people in far away countries that they know little about). Maybe I'm totally wrong about this, but I think it could give people who don't know what it's like to be a minority some idea of what it's like to be on the recieving end of prejudice, even though the context of the prejudice is different in many ways to any you'll find in our society. (Yeah, I guess this is a pretty half-assed idea.)
 
 
fuckbaked
14:21 / 18.05.05
Seth said: ”I’m more than a little dubious of any form of categorisation that isn’t self-defined”

I agree with this, but I think that the way to deal with this is to be careful in how one uses the words, rather than to not use the words at all. Certainly if someone says, “Non-magical people don’t read Tarot cards,” they’ll be excluding people who will consider themselves non-magical, but who read Tarot cards (when I was younger I dabbled in Tarot cards, but I hadn’t yet heard of magick, and I doubt I would have considered myself magical). On the other hand, Charlie’s Horse said in this thread, ”typically magicians are better at working magic than nonmagicians”. That would be a pretty hard idea to express without using the words magician and non-magician (or some synonymous term), and it doesn’t label anyone as being magical or nonmagical, but seems to leave that determination for individuals to make for themselves.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point here. Maybe you mean that in order for it to be acceptable to use a word for a certain group, it should be coined by that group, or at least widely accepted as non-offensive by that group. I agree with this, although you’re unlikely to get non-magical people to make up a word for ourselves (yes, I’m non-magical), as most non-magical people would not bother making up and agreeing on a word, since most will never find much use for it. It seems like any term that doesn’t already have negative associations with it ought to work, as long as it’s not used in a derogatory way often enough to gain a negative meaning. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but it’s hard to imagine how anyone could be any more offended by being called a non-hatter than by being called non-magical (although they might be more confused by it, especially if they’re wearing a sombrero or something).

To go back to the example of the word “neurotypical” (sorry if I’m beating the autism example to death), before the word “neurotypical” was coined, normal was used (as it still often is) and I suspect that it was self-defined by neurotypicals (although I’m not sure, maybe it was autistic people who started calling neurotypicals normal). The word “normal” may not have been offensive to most neurotypicals, but it was offensive to a lot people with autistic spectrum disorders. I guess what I’m saying is that just because a categorization is self-defined and accepted by the group that it’s applied to doesn’t make it non-offensive. If people started using the word “normal” to mean “white” (race-wise), then even if white people found this acceptable (and I know that it’s quite unlikely for this to happen, but it’s hypothetical, ok), people of other races would be offended because of the implication that they’re abnormal.
 
 
Seth
22:51 / 18.05.05
typically magicians are better at working magic than nonmagicians

Voicing this may be unpopular, but my experience doesn't bear this out. A huge amount of my formative experience took place in church, and I've yet to meet any self-professed magic practitioner who is capable of the consistency of ability and results as John-Paul Jackson, Charles Slagle, Lyn Swart, Jim McNeish, Piedad Prowting, Graham Cooke, Joy Chalke… I could continue. I don’t fully know why this sharp gap in results exists, it’s something that’s puzzled me for a while. So while I recognise that there are lots of people in church who ain’t great at operating, all my top trumps would easily be from the Godsquad, no question.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:41 / 19.05.05
I'd without question classify those Godsquad folks as magicians, under my definition of the term. But I'm admittedly fairly slippery on the magician/priest divide, given the nature of the stuff I do.

Perhaps a better way of putting it might be: people who engage with the spiritual on a very regular basis are better at engaging with such things than those who don't really engage with them at all.
 
 
grant
20:02 / 19.05.05
What term do you use to describe people who aren't involved in what I might loosely describe as "all this"? Not sceptics necessarily, just people who for whatever reason have never taken to magic, divination or whatever.



The sane.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:34 / 19.05.05
I *am* sane.
 
 
Sekhmet
20:40 / 19.05.05
How about "laymen"?

Works for every other profession.
 
 
fuckbaked
01:02 / 20.05.05
I'm *not* sane, and I'm not into magic.
 
 
Seth
12:59 / 20.05.05
I'd without question classify those Godsquad folks as magicians, under my definition of the term.

That's cool, but my point is that they wouldn't classify themselves as magicians. In fact they'd react rather badly to it.
 
 
grant
14:51 / 20.05.05
I *am* sane.

"Some people never go crazy, What truly horrible lives they must live." -- Charles Bukowski.


"Those who are crazy enough to think they can change the world usually do." -- Unknown.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:00 / 20.05.05
You know, there must be a market for inspirational posters containing phrases with a supposedly countercultural edge. Whack one of those in front of a flock of birds wheeling over a clifftop at dusk and you'd have the perfect team-builder for the magical office.
 
 
grant
18:05 / 20.05.05
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
00:13 / 21.05.05
Well, some of us *have* gone crazy at one time or another, and found ourselves... uninspired, shall we say?... by things like unpaid utility bills, smelly clothes and hospital food.

Call me an old fuddy-duddy but I'm a bit dubious of this whole madness = magic thing.

(I realise that I may sound utterly bugfuck at times, but I'm really not. I work quite hard at staying that way.)
 
 
grant
01:17 / 21.05.05
If only there was a way to separate the madness bit from the mental illness bit -- the Salvador Dali thing about being a madman who wasn't mad. Ah, well.

I should stop now.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:34 / 21.05.05
If only there was a way to separate the madness bit from the mental illness bit

There is. It's called "money." Most of the shit you fuck up when you're mentally ill is unfuckable with money. Then you get to be just Mad.

I'm cynical. Forgive me.
 
 
LVX23
01:43 / 21.05.05
I tend to feel that social labels merely perpetuate the the state that they're trying to define. If you refer to a set of people as "non-magickal", then it's much more likely that such people will remain "non-magickal". It's behavioral metaprogramming and a form of sigilisation. If enough people say it often enough, then it tends to become that much more real and true (which get's back to the whole "language defines reality" issue).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:33 / 21.05.05
It also, as has been said, leads to assumptions. I, for example, am not a magician. I've done a bit of magic, I've read a lot about it, and my general attitude seems to be that I'm not, at this point in time, mentally stable enough to deal with the required engagement particularly well. (This is being worked on and will hopefully change, but that's the way it is right now.) A statement like "non-magicians don't use the Tarot", or "non-magicians wouldn't believe this" wouldn't be correct, but would, I imagine, be easy to come out with.
To use Gypsy's analogy (but for a slightly different purpose), I've mended various things, build the odd thing out of wood, but I'm not a plumber, an electrician or a carpenter. Likewise, I do meditations, study and cast the odd sigil, but I'm not a magician, and wouldn't presume to call myself one.
I'd find a tailor-made term, "mundane" or "muggle" (which I paricularly dislike, as it would just reinforce the dominant view that magick is in fact bollocks and is a bunch of people who've read too much fantasy arsing about) or whatever, particularly reductive, as on the surface it wouldn't allow for my having an interest in the subject.

So yes, I agree with Gypsy, and also with whoever said "what's wrong with layman?"
 
 
Triplets
20:44 / 22.05.05
How about 'non-magician'? It's been used in this thread enough. Bit irritated by all the backslapping going on on page 1 eg "How about we call those bastards "blue pills", do you get it? Like those fucks who get shot up in The Matrix? Haw haw! Just kidding". Charming. And so witty too.
 
 
Ganesh
23:42 / 23.05.05
"Sheeple"?
 
 
Frater Treinta
00:45 / 24.05.05
I changed my vote. I'm now going with "Civilians." But "Uncunt" is my backup choice.
 
  

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