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If yeh can dream it, yeh can do it, by Golly!

 
 
rakker
04:18 / 27.04.05
I've formulated and "launched" a bunch of sigils over the last three years, writing the intents down in a book, trying to forget them after launch (by making a batch at a time and launching at random) and "checking" three months later to see whether or not they succeeded. Last time I had a tally there was a "success rate" of about 30%. I'm in the middle of what might be construed as such a "success" right now (my wanting to go to India and study-related activities conspiring to get me to India for next to nothing).

I think the sigil-making process is a good way of considering and formulating to yourself what you actually want to achieve/experienc/have happen. Conversely, to me at least, it's also an effective way of realizing what I don't want to happen, or at least what I want to happen through my conscious control rather than the whims of the ether/subconscious processes/whatever).

At the same time, I think sigilization might easily become sort of a sleeping-pillow. Instead of formulating effective "real-world" strategies of achieving your goals, you just sit back and wait for magic(with or without a k) to sort it out. Which seems like sort of a passive way of dealing with existence. And may it also be sort of an excuse-generator? When we don't achieve our goals, it's because "we didn't forget intent" or "didn't launch the sigil properly" or somesuch, instead of it being due to the fact that we were to lazy to get of our enlightened asses and do something to achieve our goal, out in the "real world"?
 
 
charrellz
04:41 / 27.04.05
This is part of why you should always combine sigils (and all magickal workings, really) with 'actual' physical effort. A sigil to get a new job won't get you a job unless you go out and look for one. Magick only brings the universe half-way, you have to do the rest of the walk towards the universe.
 
 
rakker
04:48 / 27.04.05
How do you then forget intent? Or is that pointless anyway?
 
 
Charlie's Horse
06:00 / 27.04.05
I generally combine the two by doing a working, and acting in a way that fascilitates that goal while not really thinking about the fact that 'ooo, lookitme i did majick to bring this about.' You do the work, in terms of magical workings and physical acts - just avoid obsessing over the 'oh oh oh it's magic' aspect. Don't think about the working, or the fact that you did the working - think about the goal you're going for. Magic is a means for obtaining this goal, as are your other actions. If you stop and admire the means, you'll ignore the ends. If you were working on an engine, you'd damn well work on the engine - you wouldn't stop to admire your wonderful toolset.

Pointless? No. Overrated? Perhaps. If you get to the point where you think about the working, don't make a big deal out of it. Don't say to yourself, 'oh no, I've fucked it all up.' Some texts seem to indicate that any absent imagining can destroy all your precious work. Without some superhuman ability to cease thinking of something completely, you can't work magic. This is a bit much. In my experience, thinking about it in passing won't mess anything up; whereas adopting the belief that your stray thought wrecked everything probably won't help your working. If it happens, just move on.

Are sigils an excuse for being lazy? That's a nice sharp critique - I like it. I do feel like they're much less involving, less creative, and less varied than magic should be. You've got some nice sharp points on passivity in magic - sitting on your ass, waiting for your goodly results to roll in. The thing is, if you get this shit to work more and more, you see less distinction between 'working magic' and 'working for something in the real world.' Same impulse, same desires, just different-yet-equally-useful tools for getting results.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:14 / 27.04.05
I don't think it's about "forgetting the intent" as much as it is about disassociating yourself from "lust of result". Getting into that space where something happens naturally without your conscious micro-management interfering and muddying the waters. Like how in martial arts or sports, you tend to perform your best when you're just doing it naturally and not thinking about it too much. Same with writing or art, the best work often comes through when you're not thinking too much about it and just let it take place. Does that make sense?

I think results magic, and possibly even life in general, seems to work along similar lines. It's often the way that I can put loads of effort into doing something, knock myself out doing everything I can think of to make something happen, and get nowhere with it at all. Then the instant that I give up on it ever happening, and genuinely don't care about it anymore - it happens. I've observed this odd formula so many times, and not just when magic is actively involved. It seems to be this process of "letting go" that gives a desire space to grow to fruition in the world.

I think this is the most interesting aspect of Austin Osman Spare's work - not the actual process of making a sigil, but the observation of how "lust of result" seems to have an influence on the manifestation of our desires. I think you can see the same kind of idea present in a lot of folk tales and fairy tales as well. It's always at the point when the hero is about to give up on accomplishing whatever s/he set out to do, that a breakthrough happens.

There's something interesting there, I think. But it's been drowned out a little by the popular emphasis on sigil sorcery as a kind of 'simple guaranteed formula for getting whatever you want'...
 
 
power vacuums & pure moments
08:17 / 27.04.05
In my experience, thinking about it in passing won't mess anything up; whereas adopting the belief that your stray thought wrecked everything probably won't help your working.

This is interesting. I tend to use the belief that any thought on the intent will 'break' my sigil [thats the impression i got from carroll, since it worked i stuck with it] This is quite difficult to acheive, from the time i charge the sigil to the time i destroy it my days become weird internal battles with intermittent meditation to shunt the intent away from the 'edge' of my concious mind. Its hard to sleep. This belief is imprinted to the extent that breaking a sigil feels tangible, like a knot untying in my mind. I think its worth it - i do tend to get results that defy the 'probablity paths' theory.
 
 
--
13:40 / 27.04.05
Recently I've had good success with sigils by converting the statement of intent into a numerical sequence rather then a glyph. Generally speaking I find that it's much harder for me to remember a series of numbers (aside from my social security number, that is) then it is for me to remember what a certain image looks like.
 
 
illmatic
14:19 / 27.04.05
Strongly agree with Gypsy's post - I'm reminded of how much taoism there is in Spare's Book of Pleasure.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
21:02 / 27.04.05
I think of sigils in two different ways (which may be a matter of me missing some terminology). First, there's sigilization as an encoding process. Taking a desire or a description of a servitor's function or whathaveyou and monkeying around with it until you have something which is not recognizable on the surface. Your subconscious knows exactly what you did to turn sentence X into glyph Y, but because your conscious mind was busy on the aesthetics of how it should look, it doesn't recall the exact series of transformations, making it easier to get the 'I WANT IT' out of your head. You can then use that glyph or mantra or numeric code for whatever you like (graffiti, tattoo, ritual focus, blah blah blah). This may or may not be lazier than coming across a correspondence in another fashion. The other way I think of sigils is the more usual encode-fire-forget method of spellcasting.

Now, sigils of the second sort, in the realm of getting things done, are the equivalent of a to-do list. Excellent, excellent things for short, defineable statements of what you want to happen. But a to-do list is hardly suited for everything; if you want transcendence, or to guide your career for the next several years, or whatever, you need a novel, not a scrap of napkin with bullet points. It's not so much that using a to-do list for everything is lazy; I just wouldn't expect it to work very well. "Item 1: Become rock star. Item 2: Achieve immortality."

I don't think it's about "forgetting the intent" as much as it is about disassociating yourself from "lust of result". Getting into that space where something happens naturally without your conscious micro-management interfering and muddying the waters.

I came up with a fun trick for getting to this state of mind (and a decent success rate suggests to me that the above is 100% correct); I call it binary desire cancellation because I like jargon. Once you consider your spell to be cast, and you're back in your everyday mental state (maybe you ground afterward, maybe you just wait a little bit, whichever), think about the result that you want. First, ponder how, really, there is almost no way that it's actually going to happen. There are a million reasons to believe that X isn't going to occur; go ahead and think of a few of them, like human nature or the way things can go wrong. Resign yourself to the fact, and become okay with not getting what you want—feel that certainty. Now, remind yourself that, really, it's a virtual certainty that your result IS going to happen. There are a million reasons to believe that X is going to occur; go ahead and think of a few of them, like human nature or the way that things sometimes just work out. Nod to yourself that the check is in the mail and so no longer worth worrying about—feel that certainty, too. Go do something else for a bit.

I've found that having accepted both the virtual certainty and the total hopelessness that what you're after will happen, it's no big deal if your mind wanders onto the topic of the spell, and it's more likely to wander off of it. Much easier than DON'T THINK ABOUT IT DON'T THINK ABOUT IT.
 
 
Seth
21:43 / 27.04.05
Gypsy and Illmatic: I'd be extremely interested in reading and/or contributing to a thread on those ideas, if you're amenable.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:45 / 10.05.05
Nice, Perfect Tommy. I like the way you think. Those are very helpful tips for sigils.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:59 / 10.05.05
>> I think this is the most interesting aspect of Austin Osman Spare's work - not the actual process of making a sigil, but the observation of how "lust of result" seems to have an influence on the manifestation of our desires. I think you can see the same kind of idea present in a lot of folk tales and fairy tales as well. It's always at the point when the hero is about to give up on accomplishing whatever s/he set out to do, that a breakthrough happens.

I just read an interview with a pretty successful comic book penciller where he says that for years he worked to break into comics and be successful in comics. After a while, doing grunt work, inking backgrounds for 3rd rate comics, etc., he was ready to give up. He resigned himself that it wasn't going to happen and decided he'd become an 'adult' and get a real job. He was engaged at the time. The day before his wedding, he got a call from DC comics to work on something. He ended up spending his honeymoon doing the project, and his wife was surprisingly understanding.

This guy is Howard Porter, penciller for Grant Morrison's successful JLA run.

I also remember reading the story of actor Gabriel Byrne, who basically said "ahh, fuck it" after years of small time acting work and said "Who cares, I'm just going to have fun on auditons for me and not worry about the result" after a period of being dejected and frustrated with the lack of progress in his acting career. The day after he said to himself 'ahh, fuck it, I'm just going to have fun on auditions and who cares what they think', he booked 2 major films and his career started in earnest.
 
 
Unconditional Love
07:14 / 11.05.05
in answer to the summary, they can be, but not nessecarily.

id like to throw up another take on sigils that reverses some of the involved perception of the rules. i have found that a constant focus and conscious recognition can work just as well as forgetting, or not lusting.

i think it very unhealthy in general not to lust, better to lust and then fulfill that lust imo. i have used a method of constant obsession over the purpose of a sigil in the past, total faith in the fact that it will work over a period of weeks to months, no attempt to forget.

what i found was that eventually the mind just gets bored with this continual psychic loopary, however long it may take, eventually the mind naturally moves onto other things, and the lust once explored fully by the mind and dwellled upon in its current capacity to dwell upon sinks beneath the waves so to speak. for me this process gives me alot of oppertunity to explore that lust or need which gives me some insight into how that particular lust has arisen in me and also why that is of importance to me. sometimes this can lead to a realisation that it wasnt as important as you thought it was anyway, but that doesnt stop the practice from working. the total affirmation for need over a period of time followed by self criticism of that affirmation revealing both positive and negative attributions about said lust, and occasionally if your lucky the positivistic negativities attached, also seems to work. and an added factor is also an exploration of self and its lusts figured into the working practice.

i think wether sigilisation is a lazy practice or not depends on the individual approach to it, examining the underlaying human factors to lust,wants and needs and particularly your own can allow sigilisation to become a step on the path of self enlightenment, the question remains as to what of your own lusts would you like to remain in the dark about? id prefer a luminous darkness to my lusts so i can at least understand to some degree how they formulate within me.
 
 
rakker
09:50 / 11.05.05
Originally, I wasn't thinking so much of sigils being an excuse for lazy magical practice as for lazy "mundane" practice. If sigils (and magic more generally) might be an excuse for not making and executing plans in the "material world." E.g: doing a doodle to get a new job instead of strenuous stuff like taking classes, contacting prospective employers, starting your own firm, etc. I think magical practice can be a good way of making yourself consider what your goals and ambitions really are instead of just floating along. Merely formulating the desires before sigilization itself I think can be a healthy exercise that many non-magic-people also might benefit from. At the same time I was curious if the magic might get in the way of actually pursuing and achieving those goals in an effective manner (especially considering the rules of "forgetting intent" and such, to which people have responded in this thread). Caroll emphazises in Liber Kaos(?), and someone mentioned above, that magic should ideally be a way of increasing your effectiveness in the world, enhancing your interaction with it, not making yourself into an inefficient recluse. I think this seems like a very healthy approach. I'm just eager to avoid falling into the "mystical recluse having enough with his inner voices"-trap. I want to interact more fully and efficiently with reality. In order to change it in conformity with my will. And I'm uncertain as to whether magic is a good a approach (but I think it might be a good supplement to other techniques/actions). Sorry if this seems a little garbled...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:54 / 11.05.05
That's true, man. We hear a lot about the all-mouth-and-no-trousers armchair magician but worse (in my view) is the freeloading tosser who never does anything except magic.

There's no sense doing any of this stuff if you don't connect it to the workaday world in some manner. That doesn't just mean giving your spells a way to work. It also means bringing stuff back, acheiving real results, making a contribution to the people around you in some way.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:34 / 11.05.05
mordant that seems to highlight what has become an ongoing debate on barbelith, the different approachs of the individualist magician and the communal magician, i can see postive and negative points to both, i think it healthy to dip into both rather than remain exclusively in one role or the other. i think people need time by themselves to be just as they are, and also learn from what they are. it then becomes a case of taking that learning into the world and applying it to the relationships you are in with others.

alot of the communal/individualist approach seems to be tied very much into self conception, many traditions reconstructed or otherwise seem to place the magician/priest/shaman in a role as community guide/helper where as many of the sorcery exclusive based traditions focus on individual power/accomplishment perhaps at the expense of community involvement or only in comparrison to other magician/sorcerers. the latter if not careful, is an easy space to become all too comfortable for those who dont wish to engage with any other part of the world.very easy to adopt a holier than thou attitude within as well.turn the world off bury my head in magic and hope the world goes away, it doesnt.
 
  
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