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Every path leads to the source

 
 
rising and revolving
19:30 / 25.04.05
I don't actually have an opinion on this either way, but I've seen people trotting out the old

"I think any path which leads you into a close relationship with a form of deity or a system as empowering and enlightening as the runes/futhark/whatever-the-hell-you-call-them."

and

"I'd speculate that walking the path of the Northern trads, building and maintaining really solid living relationships with the Aesir and Vanir, grasping the mysteries of the runes, and so on, probably brings with it a type of "transcendence" and kenning that is entirely equal to the spiritual path of Tibetan Buddhism, Tantra, Western ceremonial, Vodou, or whatever."

Which basically comes down to a "every path leads to the source" kind of arguement. Which is pretty much my usual default stance - however, it occurs to me that I believe this in a very lazy fashion. I have no real evidence for it, nor does there seem any good reason to believe it beyond some kind of extended spiritual political correctness.

So, if you *do* believe that each system is as good as the other, why? If not, why not?

And if you believe each one is a delicate and beautiful flower with it's own unique nature, grand - but, ultimately, why?
 
 
Papess
20:06 / 25.04.05
If you read my last post in the Loki thread, this is exactly where I was hoping we could go with this. Thank you Sandalphon.

Any system can be used for less than noble purposes. I also believe that any system can grow and evolve through far-thinking individuals, without losing the integrity of it's doctrine.

I think it is a matter of how direct a path one wants to take sets various doctrines apart. I have never seen evidence of transcendentalism within the Norse tradition, and it may have well been there at one time. If the idea is to "get to the source", then I haven't seen it with Nordic tradition. Even though there are so many similarities between Tibetan Buddhism and Nordic religion.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
20:21 / 25.04.05
Can you give us some examples of these similarities between Tibetan Buddhism & Norse religion, Strix?
 
 
electric monk
20:23 / 25.04.05
Pretty much my default mode as well. I tend to come at it by attaching a qualifier thusly: Every path has the potential to lead to the Source.

Why? I must admit to a laziness of belief on this, as Mr. E does, on the one hand, while pointing to the fact that I've believed this since I was just a wee lad with the other. I grew up in a very devout Lutheran home where it was made plain that everyone I knew who went to a different church than us was going to Hell. No two ways about it. It was also made plain that it was our job as "Good Christians" to tell people that Jesus died for their sins and that they (the people) should come to our church so they (and we) could avoid Hell and go to Heaven. This didn't sit right with me. I wondered why God would want that. Didn't "he", after all, make all different kinds of people? Didn't that indicate God's desire for a little variety? Why were we right and everyone else wrong? I never asked my parents these questions, but did integrate these thoughts into my personal cosmology where they remain to this day.

To explore further "why": Ever met a really nice Christian person? Someone who's really living their belief and doesn't seem too bothered if you believe something different? I have. Ever met a really shitty Christian? Someone who emits a loud gasp when they learn what you do and promises to pray for you? Me too. Now how 'bout a shithead Wiccan? Very personable Wiccan? Yes and yes, answers I. The point I'm trying to make is that the multi-various paths of spirituality are open to us at a very personal and immediate level and can be used for whatever purpose you desire. "Less than noble" purposes emerge from the individuals interaction with their chosen path, plus any number of other factors. As does direct contact with the Source and the meaning of that contact. Each Path carries that potential. The individual develops/utilizes that potential.

More from me on the "delicate and beautiful flower" later maybe.

Perhaps we should attempt to define "getting to the source" in thread to avoid immanent confusion?
 
 
Papess
21:00 / 25.04.05
Can you give us some examples of these similarities between Tibetan Buddhism & Norse religion, Strix?

One right off the top of my are the similarities between the Valkryie and Dakinis, which are quite a few. I would have to make a more comprehensive list of these at another time.

There is the use of estatic dancing, drumming and chanting.

Tantra and Seidr.

Just to name a few similarities. I have to make dinner and go to work right now and cannot expand on this, ATM. But can you see the resemblance, Trouser?
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:01 / 25.04.05
all this getting to a source, as noted, who says there is one? it seems a convnient way to say god or goddess or enlightenment. perhaps it wise to assume there isnt one and all these paths are mainly in peoples minds, and are displayed as words and costumes that people cloak themselves in depending on there culture. perhaps.
 
 
charrellz
00:59 / 26.04.05
I'm bringing this discussion over here to finish it up. Thought it would be better suited here than in the Loki thread where this whole discussion was torn screaming from the womb. If you don't know the history, head here to find out.

Also, what is wrong with comparing religions? Tibetan Buddhism and the Nordic religion have a lot in common, a whole lot! Based on that, perhaps Norse may have a transcendental element to it that may have been very lost due to the broken lineage. I would rather provoke that way of thinking, rather than just saying they are different and leaving it at that.
I guess I didn't clarify things too well in my previous post. I wasn't trying to say that religions are different and thus shouldn't be compared. Going back to my apple vs. steak analogy, you can compare them, but it's unfair to discuss which goes better with A1 steak sauce. I believe Rinpoche was doing just that. I think his comment about the transcendental nature (or lack thereof) of Norse spirituality more than likely was based on an eastern/Buddhist definition of transcendental, which makes no sense in the culture which developed the Asatru. It's kind of like a Rabbi saying that shinto just isn't Jewish. Well yes, and? However, even with huge differences, I think all these paths can be used towards a roughly transcendental goal, though not always in the way your average lama would.

I'm running on far too little sleep, but I want to get in more on this thread's topic, so I'm just gonna toss some ideas out for everyone, sorry for the lack of order. Given my post-modern bent when it comes to philosophy, I tend to think all religions have the same level of objective truth (that being, however much you assign to it). If religious experience is all just chemicals in the brain, than it doesn't matter what book you read to get there, just that you do (sort of like if you goal in intoxication, it's your choice to use alcohol or marijuana). If there is an objective reality to deity, there is the possibility of all religions being different facets of the same deity. One god presents itself as Yahweh to some, as Odin to others, etc.


I give up, someone else take over for now.
 
 
electric monk
03:09 / 26.04.05
perhaps it wise to assume there isnt one and all these paths are mainly in peoples minds, and are displayed as words and costumes that people cloak themselves in depending on there culture.

It is a useful stance, I'll say that. It does make banishing-laughter after a ritual easier.
 
 
electric monk
03:19 / 26.04.05
And if you believe each one is a delicate and beautiful flower with it's own unique nature, grand - but, ultimately, why?

Earlier tonight, after dinner, I broke up the last hunk of french bread and left it for the birds that visit our backyard. As I was washing the dishes, a grackle landed in the grass outside the kitchen window. Then another. Then another and her baby. Then a bluejay. Bluejay got a couple pecks from the grackle-gang and retreated to the relative safety of a pine branch to wait them out. I thought, "Every bird can fly. Every bird has the power of flight." Now, birds have different styles of flight. Grackles fly differently than bluejays which fly differently than thrashers which fly differently than ibises, etc. Point being, they can all break the surly bonds of earth and soar. This, for me, was belief and religion and spirituality summed up neatly by my feathered friends.

Every bird can fly.
 
 
Aertho
03:39 / 26.04.05
Yay!

Does that mean the Mormons are penguins?
 
 
Seth
03:40 / 26.04.05
I don't believe there's any such thing as a *path* with which you have a passive relationship. Even if you choose to try and have a passive relationship you'll still be actively observing and interpreting all the experience and research you do.

Some people seem to have an uncanny ability to grow personally regardless of their apparent setting. Using the dubious metaphor of this thread, these people seem to the observer to be locked onto the source like a heatseeking missile, and the way they've chosen to get there may seem very different to them than it does to you.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
04:18 / 26.04.05
Strix

estatic (sic) dancing, drumming and chanting get everywhere - I think that's far too broad-based a "similarity" to be useful.

Valkryies & Dakinis. Interesting. Can you expand on this? Where's the connection? I thought that the Valkyries could be considered as psychopomps (going from the term valkyrja - "chooser of the slain." Their associations with the battlefield are further reinforced by their titles (Herfjotur - "war-fetter", Gunnr - "battle", etc.) My impression of the Dakinis is that although they are often portrayed as fierce, they were not merely psychopomps, but have a much wider range of functions. In the Tithidakinikalpa for example, the Dakinis personify the bright/dark phases of the moon.
Are you thinking of Valkyries/Dakinis as shape-shifters, or at least the whole bird-woman thing? There's a lot more mileage in this connection, especially when you consider that the Tibetan translation of "dakini" is the same as the colloquial word for bird, given a feminine ending (thankyou David Gordon White).

Tantra and Seidr
Forgive me for being dense, but no, I don't see an obvious connection here.
 
 
Z. deScathach
08:34 / 26.04.05
"Less than noble" purposes emerge from the individuals interaction with their chosen path, plus any number of other factors. As does direct contact with the Source and the meaning of that contact. Each Path carries that potential. The individual develops/utilizes that potential.

I would agree with this only partially. True, the variance of the individual produces radically different outcomes in the pursuit of any "path", still, that does not exclude the general influence of the system's symbology. The deity structure and general precepts of ant system are bound to influence the behavior of it's adherents, and their view of the cosmos. Christianity, for example, posits a god who is all-correct, who is pitted against a god,(yes, I know that Christians would argue that Satan is not a god, but if it looks like a god, walks like a god, and has super-natural powers like a god, it's probably a god), who represents absolute evil. Another precept of Christianity is that all other gods are false. The logic is inescapable here. If all other gods are false,i,e, illusion, and there is only God and Satan, then persons who worship other gods musty be actually worshiping Satan. Since Satan is supposedly all-evil, then he persons worshiping him must be affected by this. This particular viewpoint has had the effect of making it hard for Christianity to play well with others. This has been born out in their history, and although they are now heavily restricted through law, I would ask anyone here if they would desire a theocracy based upon that religion.

It's easy however, to pick on Christianity, particularly in an occult forum. It's obvious, however, that various magickal systems also influence the GENERAL behavior of their participants. I've spent a fair amount of time in the magickal community, and I find that systems do indeed influence their practitioners. Shamanism in the traditional sense, for example, has a strong warrior aspect. Many of these practitioners spend a lot of time retrieving soul fragments lost through attack, as well as battling various astral nasties on the part of their clients. My experience with them is that this frequently gives them a strong good versus evil paradigm, and this directly influnces their behavior and choices. Not all shamans have these characteristics, nor do all shamans act upon that structure. Still, the nature of what they do gives them a "tendency" to it, and their practice gives them a "feel" that is different from say, Wiccan practitioners. I'm not making a moral judgment on this, just observing the behavior. A traditional shaman will be willing to take actions different than a Wiccan, due to the belief structures. A traditional shaman does not observe the Rede, and does not believe in a three-fold law. Where a Wiccan may feel restricted to practicing a binding in response to an individual percived as undesirable, a shaman may have no problem with throwing an astral dart, a more destructive magickal technique. Not only that, the precepts of their religion influence who is percieved as undesirable. Their responses are directly influenced by the belief systems of their path.

It's been my experience that systems with strong paradigms of morality tend to make their practitioners more likely to judge others based on that morality, and it is undeniable that moral judgment is a powerful motivator. Systems with moral flexibility, by contrast, seem to produce a practitioner that will make judgments more based upon individual behavior than based upon adherence to a philosophy. It's one of the reasons, (I figure), that I've been moving toward moral relativism for some time. Obviously, all of the systems mentioned above are capable of taking one to "source", but I would argue that it is not the belief systems that do this, but the techniques that are practiced in them. Christianity has "prayer". Shamanism has shamanic trance generation, Wicca has ritual. These are things that are "done", not believed. It is the doing that leads one to source, but the belief will mold a particular type of individual. Even when witnessing the "mystery", we are, after all, unique.
 
 
eco
13:38 / 26.04.05
Path? Source? That would seem to imply a journey through time with some beginning. Perhaps there is no path, there is no source, there is only existence and our manifold experience of existence? My spirits are your spirits, the only difference is how we think about them or what aspects of the whole are being revealed to us at this viewing point. Besides, if we bought the idea of a definable path and source, would they be the same with hindsight as they were with foresight?
 
 
Papess
15:57 / 26.04.05
Tantra and Seidr
Forgive me for being dense, but no, I don't see an obvious connection here.


Both use estatic states to assume a deity. They do this differently, I realise. One is more possession (Seidr) and the other is emulation (Tantra)...more or less. The difference is really quite slight and in attempting Sieth trance, I have used similar methods to those I have used in Tantra - seed syllable/rune, for example.

There is more, such as I believe the volva or vitka sits on a moon disk (?), I am not sure, but I think I read that in a book which Mixmage has. Maybe he can tell you the name of it, because I cannot recall.

I realise it is not exact, as in Siedr there may just be communication with spirits and not actual possession or assumption of deity/spirit. Differences are expected as there are different traditions, but in relation to this thread, I bring up similarities of Buddhism and Norse because I think that the fact so many doctrines have similarities may support the argument of "all paths lead to the source". However, whatever that "source" is, seems to be debatable.

For me, I see "the source" as realizing the "ultimate nature of reality" and then transcending that. Now I have think about what I mean by that.
 
  
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