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Advice, please?

 
 
Multiple Man
19:25 / 20.04.05
I would of said advice for a beginner in the topic title, but I am not exactly beginner.

Basically in my earlier teen years (coming up on 18 now) I was interested in various forms of Neo-Paganism and despite some small amounts of success I ended up losing interest. Mainly due to not really having the mindset for the Dual-Gods and Nature revering aspects.

Recently after some mild lurking here in the Temple I have become more interested in taking up Magick as both a lifestyle/philosophy and in a practical sense but I have completely lost touch with basically what is out there. I am looking really for a belief system which could lie comfortably with me own - I dont find that nature reverence speaks to me, I believe strongly in some fundamental human principles such as honour, trustworthyness and loyalty etc etc, and I find Duality systems just dont cut the ice for me.


However, in a bid to play Devils Advocate to myself, Should the practitioner bend a system to his own beliefs or should his own beliefs bend for the system?


MM

Postscript - Sorry if this appears a bit rambling and nonsensical, tiredness and essays can do that. Will clarify my more confusing points in the morning
 
 
Seth
12:34 / 21.04.05
I believe strongly in some fundamental human principles such as honour, trustworthyness and loyalty etc etc, and I find Duality systems just dont cut the ice for me.

I like you already.

Is there anything that you've seen or read a little bit about already that looks appealing to you?

You seem to know what a broad remit this is, so asking whether you like anything from what you've already seen should narrow the playing field a little.

However, in a bid to play Devils Advocate to myself, Should the practitioner bend a system to his own beliefs or should his own beliefs bend for the system?

What do you reckon?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:51 / 21.04.05
Should the practitioner bend a system to his own beliefs or should his own beliefs bend for the system?

Should a person try to bend another person's beliefs to their own, in order to communicate, or should they allow their own beliefs to be changed by those of another. I'd say a little of both, and the same principle applies to magical 'systems'. It's give and take. A marriage of sorts has to occur. You bring something to it, it brings something to you. You change a little for it, it changes a little for you. Just like any other successful interaction.

I don't think you can really know if something is right for you or not without trying it out and seeing how it fits. What interests you?

Also, I don't think there is really any such thing as magic without reverence for "nature". What do you mean when you use the term "nature" exactly? We exist within nature and are a part of it, as is magic.
 
 
Multiple Man
14:09 / 21.04.05
I like you already.

Is there anything that you've seen or read a little bit about already that looks appealing to you?

You seem to know what a broad remit this is, so asking whether you like anything from what you've already seen should narrow the playing field a little.


Basically I am aware of the fact that there are alot of things I am *not* aware of. Again apologies for how broad and useless this is.

After some brief, albeit shallow research I know some things I am likely not to be interested in pursuing.

* Your Crowley, OTO, Thelema turn of the 20th century era things etc etc (to put lots of things in a little label.). The "style" of these for lack of a better word does not seem appealing to me.
* Chaos Magick. This may simply be from a lack of understanding as your average teen has little taught knowledge of the concepts that seem to underpin it. Open to learn more.
* Voodoo. Just doesnt really.. interest me.

Hopefully this has given you a better idea? If not let me know!


Also, I don't think there is really any such thing as magic without reverence for "nature". What do you mean when you use the term "nature" exactly? We exist within nature and are a part of it, as is magic.


Apologies for not explaining myself fully. My definition of "reverence for nature" is clearly based upon my own experiences and as I got mixed into the very pre-teenage, juvenile side of Paganism I have only experienced the "fluffy" (A debatable term at the best of times) side which is all a bit..twee? Again I am open into looking into such ideas based around more mature philosophies.
 
 
benj
14:20 / 22.04.05
Your world is different now than it was a few years ago when you started... so too should your understanding of "nature". It's more than a druid grove in sylvan woods - it's everything around you right now; it's the music on your stereo, the streets in your town, it's the photons emitted from your computer screen, a star on the far side of the universe, and it's people on the other side of the world you've never met.

Nature is the environment you are in all the time, and it is always sending messages to you. And you are not separate to it - the rules that make the quarks and energy fields and information systems that make you unique apply to everyone and everything you encounter... and you've already started to figure this out: "I find Duality systems just dont cut the ice for me."

As for what systems might work for you, well, keep trawling the Temple threads; I know there's more knowledge in this forum than I'm ever likely to have on my bookshelf...

The system that works for me is chaos magick. Using the best tool for the job.
Which for me means yoga for bodywork; NLP for thinking about thinking; quantum physics and buddism for a metaphysical structure to base things in; sigils for practical workings; comparitive religions and mythology for understanding archetypes and the unconscious.

I have competing priorities in my life; I don't want to spend twenty years in a Shaolin temple at the expense of the more base pleasures of life. Humanity is still figuring out the rules for the game we're playing, and nothing says you can't be a multi-class fighter/cleric/mage... Try out different things; see what works for you.
 
 
electric monk
14:57 / 22.04.05
Have a look at Meta-Religion.com for a fair-to-middling overview of pretty much everything. Might spark something for you.
 
 
Multiple Man
15:15 / 22.04.05

The system that works for me is chaos magick. Using the best tool for the job.
Which for me means yoga for bodywork; NLP for thinking about thinking; quantum physics and buddism for a metaphysical structure to base things in; sigils for practical workings; comparitive religions and mythology for understanding archetypes and the unconscious.


But surely taking small bits from everywhere is the magickal or spiritual equivalent of diluting it? Does it still really make sense or have the same effect when each element is taken out of its original context?


..Or am I talking complete arse?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:29 / 22.04.05
I think you are right, and chaos magic can be a fairly superficial and inane approach to magic if you do it like that. But eclecticism doesn't have to be approached like that. A person can engage deeply and seriously with more than one thing. For instance there is nothing stopping you from practising, say, yoga, NLP, kung fu and ceremonial magic on different days of the week and learning each of them fully. It doesn't have to be a process of taking small bits from each of them, diluting it, and trying to stick it all together into a coherent single system. You can just manage your time and make progress in all of them. It's not really any different from a person learning how to cook good food, play a musical instrument, ride a motorbike and play tennis. You just have to do the work and put in the hours to get where you want to be.
 
 
benj
16:43 / 22.04.05
To be honest, mate, I don't know. It makes sense to me, is all I can say.

You'd be hard-pressed finding a pure-strain context these days anyway. Voodoo's a mix of African and Catholic belief. Catholicism itself is a mix of Christianity and local paganism. Modern Wicca has only been around since the 1930's. Thelema/Golden Dawn is a mish-mash of European and Eastern techniques, with reconstructed Egyptian mystery cult flavours added to it. Eurasian shamanism was undoubtedly wiped out by Stalin, if the Tsars hadn't already finished the job. The modern conception of a million Hindu Gods has only been around since the British unified India in the 1800's. Buddism changes shape according to the country it's in. Alchemy lost it's spiritual side during the Age of Enlightenment. And you can forget about Celtic or Norse traditions in the last millennium.

Modern man originated 135,000 years ago. We wouldn't be here today if our ancestors hadn't adapted to new circumstances - and I think that those ancient shamen would have been among the first to adapt. Nearby tribe finds a way to increase its survival through using an unutilised plant? I'll have that for my tribe...
And those tribes who's shamen didn't adapt to new conditions? Well who knows.. survival of the fittest, in my opinion.

And so it is today. I'm never going to be able to reconstruct the pagan belief structure of my ancestors, but even if I could, would it be a useful system in the modern multi-cultural world I live in?

I'm just trying to figure out a way that works for me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:04 / 23.04.05
A good starting point for you might be to study--really study--a divinatory technique. I'd say tarot because you end up gaining a lot of info that will stand you in good stead when working with ritual magic systems. Also, if you intend to practice magic you really should master some kind of divination. Scry before you buy.
 
 
Harlen M Quint
13:51 / 23.04.05
I'd say tarot because you end up gaining a lot of info that will stand you in good stead when working with ritual magic systems

I agree completely. I began Tarot as a means of exploring a different side of spirituality when I was your age. My best advice would be to stick with Tarot, learn the cards, and stay with it for a good while before branching out. Doing eclectic studies from the gate might not be as satisfying as gradually building your spiritual system.

So, yes, start with the Tarot, and feel things out slowly from there. But hey, at the ned of the day, each person has their own path.
 
 
alejandrodelloco
14:07 / 23.04.05
I've been poking around as well and am about the same age... In recent months I have been experimenting (miserably) with Chaos Magick and what RAW calls metaprogramming. Anyone else got any suggestions as what to try?
 
 
Seth
17:56 / 23.04.05
I started out on dream journalling for my introduction to divination. I was a right old codger about it too: I got right into the discipline, wrote something every morning regardless of whether I had recall or not. Sometimes I'd just write how I was feeling when I woke up, sometimes I'd have about three pages worth of size twelve font on Word.

I read everything I could on the subject, listened to every account of dreams I heard, poured over books of symbols, caned the fuck out of my local secondhand shops' supply of Jung. I managed a few lucid dreams, used sleep paralysis to do some stuff, had a few synchronised dream/journeying experiments with a shaman friend, and noticed the difference in quality of vivid prophetic dreams.

I heartily recommend it. It gives you tons of useful self-awareness, gets you into manipulating and interpreting symbols, gives an edge of daily routine and discipline, fosters a relationship to your unconscious, and acts as a really useful diagnostic about your life. If you can learn to lucid dream you'll have access to another huge set of possibilities.

All that plus you won't necessarily have to subscribe to someone else' system: you'll be working as your own boss. Master all that and throw in some regular exercise and you may never need anything else.

Of course, that's just my recommendation based on what worked for me to get me into things. My growing fascination with dreams was probably my first proper step into magic (whatever that is), and I followed the trail from there, learning about whatever I felt drawn to along the way. All sorts of things suggested themselves for study, and gradually the areas that would be really fruitful for me started to stand ahead of the pack.

My advice, in a one-liner: do more of what you're already doing that seems to be working, and see where that leads you.
 
  
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