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Gender in Sin City

03:18 / 20.04.05

One thing that I found myself wondering as I watched the Sin City movie (and looking back at the comic books again) is how to understand the portrayal of women. I think it is definitely safe to say that there is an element of misogyny in it- the scant outfits, the general reliance on stronger male figures (with a few exceptions)- but I suspect, or would like to believe, that there is more going on here than a simple male fantasy. I don't know too much about Frank Miller as a person other than that he is very involved in freedom of expression rights, which leads to me to believe he is probably relatively liberal, and if so, there is probably some exposure to feminist thought and ideology on his part.

There are a couple ways of thinking about the women of Sin City that I have come up with. One is to view it as operating within the traditional conventions of the genre and taking them to extremes, in this case, the intense usage of the femme fatale archetype. However, I also think there might be some subversion of the convention too, as I do see some empowering elements. The main example is the establishment of the autonomous society of prostitutes who form a self governing and self protecting group. Yet there is still this continual return to the woman relying on the man (Goldie/Wendy on Marv, Nancy on Hartigan, etc.). I don't think that the sexism and the empowerment are mutually exclusive, but it does make for somewhat of a jumbled reading.

So what do you guys think? What do you make of the women of Sin City? I would especially be interested to hear what women think of the portrayals. I have some other ideas about this topic, but I have not really worked them all out yet, so maybe I will post them a bit later.

08:32 / 20.04.05

I think most people would have a tough job of defending the portrayal of women in Sin City (the books, that is - I haven't yet seen the film). Sometimes I think it reads like a guy trying to present strong women, but not really understanding why people could still find it problematic. Or maybe Miller just doesn't care: instead just putting his vision down on paper for people to take or leave it.

There [i]is[/i] something unashamedly, unapologetically, 'male fantasy' about Sin City: the indestructible tough loners battering their way through the bad guys trying to save pneumatic chicks in lingerie. It's part of the fun, so maybe to try and look at it in a kind of "hmm - is this too sexist? Is it problematic in its portrayal of women" might even miss the point, if the answer is "Yes", and a kind of shrug.

As you point out, the closest the books get to female empowerment is the situation of the girls of Old Town, and again as you say they come to rely on Dwight to save them. Of course, not every text needs to be about female empowerment and a book that's centred on macho male fantasy probably isn't the best place to look for it.

Dan Fish - @Fish1k

08:54 / 20.04.05

From what I've read, and what I remember, the women generally seem to be the most morally upright and 'together' characters in the comic.

Maybe it's a parody/commentary taken to the Nth extreme, on the subjugation of woman in a male dominated society. Regardless of gender, the moral of the stories seems to me to be that no matter what your role in life, or the surrounding in which you are raised, everyone has the choice/chance to do the right thing.

Or something.

09:01 / 20.04.05

The main lass in Hell And Back is a duplicitous nymphomaniac who wnats to get some cock from the hero before she stabs him in the back. Although possibly on the whole the women are largely portrayed as 'the good guys'. But still, they're always dressed as pornstars. Maybe that's context: after all, all the characters in Sin City are seedy and corrupted to some extent.

09:23 / 20.04.05

Firstly, it is important to remember that Sin City is a Film Noir pastiche - it's about archetypes, but not stereotypes. There are some stories that Sin City can't touch because they don't fit the Film Noir mould. Allie McBeal could never be just harmlessly ditzy in Sin City, because no one can be...

Secondly, I'd ask what you mean my 'sexism' in portrayal of the various women and what you mean by 'empowerment'.

12:28 / 20.04.05

Tangential discussion on allegations of homophobia Miller's work, some points of which may prove applicable/enlightening here.

13:02 / 20.04.05

It's always interesting to see these discussions about Sin City. I think even asking the question puts women in a lesser role than men.

The topic is brought up early on in many reviews of the film, and based on the prevalence of it and the way it's usually discussed (sure, it's a misogynistic portrayal, but it's a fun movie) reveals a general cultural conception that women are thought to be fullfilling lesser roles.

And here's why I make that inference. Because nearly all of the characters in Sin City have serious psychological problems. yet, it's the portrayal of women that's questioned. Violence is discussed, but as if it's a separate entity. Not in the context as violence coming from a character portayed in a specific way.

Most of the men are evil scum. Worse villains than are usually found in fiction. The Roarke brothers, Kevin, Manute, even the lackeys, and most importantly, the heroes are sociopathic. Dealing out and justifying murder with no guilt, remorse or reflection.

Both this and the portrayal of the women in Sin City is consistent with noir fiction. So personally, I have no problem with it and I am a huge fan of the series and the movie for many reasons.

I don't think it's a fiction that can hold up to much series scrutiny of morals.

But what I do think is troubling is the reactions people have to it, presented (this group here at the 'lith excepted) as a position of superiority and superficial disdain. Without a substantive comtemplation behind it.

So, it seems there may be some depth behind Sin City in that it's not only a really good time and a brave exploration of visual style in both media, but it reveals something about the audience that sees it. And that, I believe, is part of the role of art.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

13:07 / 20.04.05

There is a major part of Sin City that is male fantasy, but as others have said, since it is supposed to be "Noir to the extreme", it uses the archetypes of crime fiction to tell its stories. There's a part of me that thinks it would be more important to look at which archetypes Miller is working with, and what he is trying to say by using them.

21:24 / 20.04.05

Overall, I am not hugely offended by the portrayal of women. In another context, I might be, but I read it here mostly as working within the genre conventions that it is working within/pastiching. I guess I am curious as to whether you read anything as specifically femenist in there. I am not sure I do. What do you think of the Old Town society?

21:59 / 20.04.05

I'd advise against attempting to talk in terms of feminism as if it were somehow a single unified concept that everyone agrees on. It isn't; there are many strands to feminism, perhaps as many as there are women in the world...

As I alluded to in the 'Frank Miller, Homophobe?' thread, the female characters in Sin City are pro-active, both sexually and otherwise. They are usually able to assert themselves against any agression, sexual or otherwise either directly or through manipulation of others. And while the girls of old town are frequently referred to as hookers and pros I don't think we ever see money exchanging hands - from what limited exposure we have to the business side of their world things seem a little more complex than a simple handing over cash in payment for a sex act...

00:52 / 24.04.05

On this note (the never seeing money exchange hands, etc.), I do think it's interesting to note that the only prostitute who's really portrayed as one in no uncertain terms is Becky. We learn that Goldie is a prostitute, but we only see her in bed with Marv (as with her sister); Gail, as a dominatrix (judging from her attire), is presumably not having sex with her clients, but simply beating the shit out of them; Miho hangs in Oldtown, but appears to be the "law," and not a participant in the carnal goings-on. It might not be too simplistic a reading to say that in Sin City, it's okay to be a hooker so long as it means only that you dress like a pornstar and exclusively fuck the hero -- an actual, honest to God *hooker* is clearly not to be trusted. Conversely, it could just mean that Miller is squeamish about the explicit degradation of his heroines (if one considers prostitution degrading -- various strains of feminism and all that). Now that I think about it, we could get *really* virgin/whore about the whole thing and ask why exactly it is that Dwight and Gail can never be together, when it's cool for Dwight to hose some besotted bar bimbo, and Gail apparently can only exorcise her own tensions by giving lashes to strangers and occasionally stealing a kiss from the man she really loves...hmmmmmm.