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Peter Carroll won't let me say 'is', 'was' and 'will'

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
14:28 / 21.04.05
Interestingly, one very good way of losing the respect of the people you are talking to is to suggest that if they do not think as you do that they are somehow "reading it wrong". In a discussion about the meaninglessness of language, this is obviously extra funny.

So, reading the text or the author... I think in some cases it is useful to have the first idea about an author, where they are coming from and where their thinking tends when looking at a text. I'm not sure where you got this article from or how familiar you are with the Zerzan's work.

The most obvious difference< I think, between Zerzan's position and Hyatt or Crowley's is that Hyatt and Crowley are suggesting presumably, if their arguments mirror yours, that there are times when freeing oneself of the structures of language through ritualistic processes is useful, whereas Zerzan is denying the validity of writing, and of speech, as a worthwhile contributor to the discourses we should be having, which are (if you read a bit more Zerzan) concerned with the successful hunting and gathering of food. Thus:

Words bespeak a sadness; they are used to soak up the emptiness of unbridled time. We have all had that desire to go further, deeper than words, the feeling of wanting only to be done with all the talk, knowing that being allowed to live coherently erases the need to formulate coherence.

There is a profound truth to the notion that "lovers need no words." The point is that we must have a world of lovers, a world of the face-to-face, in which even names can be forgotten, a world which knows that enchantment is the opposite of ignorance. Only a politics that undoes language and time and is thus visionary to the point of voluptuousness has any meaning.


That is, *all* words are products of an unnatural and unreasonable desire to communicate about stuff that should not need communication about.

I'm not sure that's what you're aiming for. Then again, I'm pretty suspicious of your dualistic critique of "being" and "rationality":

they are teaching you to internalise your experience without soul without the alive feeling of being, reducing your humanity to mere rationality and intellectualism

Even Zerzan would, I think, agree that right at this moment in human history it is necessary to provide critique of reason in order ultimately to abolish it - and thus that self is at present tied _to_ reason. Mind you, he's a big fan of the political theory of the Unabomber as well, so who knows? Tell Crowley that he had to free himself of language and he might not unreasonably ask you what he would then produce and sell. You can't have averbal society with verbal mechanisms.
 
 
Aertho
14:38 / 21.04.05
Thus Spake Haus.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:21 / 21.04.05
hyatt argues for a direct reverence of biology within a spiritual capacity, hyatt also describes culture as a veil that needs to be lifted, this includes language and its attendent delusions, hyatt is seeking mindlessness which comes through in his commentary on zen within energised meditation.

zarzan has a similar message in the text language origins and meaning encoded in a political frame work rather than an eastern/western psychological fashion.

both have had in my opinion egoloss in a profound way at some point, and both are reporting back on it in there own fashion. id argue crowleys exercises are trying to produce the same result.

death of ego and its attendent rationalism and intellectuality, which hyatt highlights in em and zarzan approachs through politics.

i approached both texts looking at the motivation and experience that would produce the writing, which is why i stated that sometimes it is better to read the author rather than the texts.

having said that i am making imaginal guesses at what they may of experienced, but i do have an imagination full of words to guess with, no matter how i frame them they are still guesses, poetry or experimental investigation.

theres no difference between the mind i dream with, take a shit with or read with. its the same mind.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:30 / 21.04.05
you can shift the combinations of words around as much as you like, not say this only say that, consciousness remains as awareness as does experience. playing with language is fun, i especially enjoy cut ups, which in my opinion attempt to destroy linguistic structures entirely,especially if the method is internalised.

having said that, something hyatt and many mystics have exclaimed over the years, the ego must go, wether it be through bliss or breakdown, and with it goes the comfort zone of rationalisation and intellectual snobbery.

something i cling to as much as the next to give me a float. but for that bliss consistantly, it all has to go.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:46 / 21.04.05
Certainly, if there's one thing I've heard about Hyatt it is that he has absolutely no ego whatsoever.
 
 
Aertho
16:49 / 21.04.05
My God.

1. Watch Huckabees.

2. Speak as those who speak to you.

3. Go for a walk.

4. Try to enjoy the short time you're here.
 
 
Aertho
16:50 / 21.04.05
Obviously, that was meant for wolfy hooves or somesuch otehrwise known as mark r.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:13 / 21.04.05
obviously.
 
 
Bruno
19:20 / 21.04.05
Gypsy Lantern:
Can you be sure that you weren't just projecting your own expectations - based on the personal investment you've made in the efficacy of the technique - onto the dialogue?

Is there any claim immune to this kind of criticism?

Haus:
whereas Zerzan is denying the validity of writing, and of speech, as a worthwhile contributor to the discourses we should be having, which are (if you read a bit more Zerzan) concerned with the successful hunting and gathering of food.

Haus I thought that Zerzan's point was that with primitivist economics/ecology we would have a lot more free time after gathering food (also isn't he against hunting?)... and that this free time (the leisure/work distinction would disapear too) would involve a direct interaction with nature/reality not mediated by 'language' (which he doesnt define very well) and symbolic thought. The quote you used, the lover's gaze and all of that, isn't that the whole point of it? That symbolic thought itself is supposedly against our essential nature, and that this essential nature isn't hunting-gathering but a wholistic non-symbolic prelinguistic LIVING/BEING/DOING.

It's nice ideas. Its very similar to Marx even. But isnt all thinking by its nature symbolic, even things like cut-ups or noise poetry. Even drumming, fucking, walking, breathing. By using symbolic systems (languages, models, patterns) we can shift consciousness towards different points, create or destroy habits, and so on... symbolic systems have the potential to be both liberating or disempowering, reactionary or change-inducing, etc.
 
 
illmatic
09:23 / 22.04.05
I used to have Zerzan's book "Elements of Refusal". IIRC he argues against ALL symbolic systems of representation including number and time. He associates these with these with agriculture and what you might call a "fall into history" - he sees all of human history from the moment we stopped being hunter-gatherers, and began to live as settled communities as somehow "unatural" and oppressive - he's your ultimate anarcho-primitivist basically. He's looking for a philipsophical version of "original sin" basically. I found his writing bracing to read in the way that such an uncompromising stance always is, but ultimately far so far removed from my experience and any possiblity of action I might take as to be almost completely irrelevant. I agree with Haus's comments that his critque is much wider than Hyatt's or Crowley's - much wider, much deeper and much much more useless!
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:31 / 23.04.05
my point remains the same. egolessness experieneced in a momentary way expressed through various narratives by varying authors. the attendent politics of the authors concerned doesnt concern me, but the experience that led to the conclusions regarding culture and language does, if youve had a similar experience the empathy for all the authors expressions can be readily applied.

if you would like to know my personal view of politics it is , no form of politics works as a perfect system, i have decided to abandon them all, with brief interludes of trying them on for size and realising like i did they are all unworking premises, much like religions or occult systems. none are a complete picture, i came to the conclusion that its better not to have a system at all.

self invention is perhaps the best option.which is another point about these schools of language they work within the context of where there taught, in the wider community which in my opinion is largley a mish mash of beliefs the effect is negligible to nothing. people think whatever they like, there are no rules.nor should there be.
 
 
penitentvandal
08:02 / 26.04.05
Actually, there are several rules. One of them involves beginning sentences with a capital letter; the corollary of this is that you always end your sentences with a full stop.

You may be deliberately unpunctuating in order to free yourself of the hypnosis of grammar controlled by The Man, but it makes it really rather difficult for other folk to read. While exercises like e-prime do have a purpose, it must still be remembered that the structures of language in general also have a purpose - they help us understand each other better. Observe the following example:

'The doctor who is an arsehole told me to do it.'
'The doctor, who is an arsehole, told me to do it.'

In the first instance, the speaker is informing us that he was told to do something by a specific doctor - the one who is an arsehole. In the second, he could be talking about any doctor, but is inserting, in commas, his own opinion of the fellow. Or, y'know, maybe he just doesn't like Christopher Eccleston. Who knows?

I believe that language is a good thing. Language allows us to understand the thoughts of people decades before us, to create a record of our lives, and to form concepts which a non-linguistic culture couldn't fathom - and to communicate those concepts to each other. Language built the cities; language got us to the moon. Which, if you're of Zerzan's ilk, is probably the major problem with language - if you're anti-technology, anti-progress (as Zerzan is), then the thing which allowed technology to come into existence, the thing which allowed the formation of notions of progress, has to be a bad thing. Language built the death camps; language built the bomb.

Language is a double-edged sword, but I'd rather have one sword than none.

As to ego loss - it's worth pointing out that the sentence 'I have no ego' begins with an 'I'...
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:34 / 26.04.05
i agree with you, language has certain rules in a certain format to communicate certain ideas, for example language as writing in a particular context. then examine language as it is spoken within all areas of the wider community and something else ocurs it no longer has fixed bounds within educational ideaology, it becomes the property of the community and is adapted and created by those members of varying groups, and is also so created by individuals within those groups, it becomes very apparent that at a certain point language is only bound by the sounds in which we have been taught to speak, put language into the realms of music and sound as a method of expression and even the cultural alphabets have lost there authority at a certain point, liberating language into its most basic form, that of sound. once concieved of as just sound it becomes apparent where language fits in and its relationship to consciousness. written language is based on the comprehension of inner sound, ie a memory of sounds, also remembered as forms.

egolessness could be understood as a lack of these remembered and concieved sense impressions and conscious formulations created by a reflecting mind, or alternately it could become a total awareness of senses without mental validation.
 
 
Quantum
16:43 / 26.04.05
I think the verb 'to be' has a special status beyond other linguistic fallacies, as existence is not a predicate.

To clarify, you can say 'I am handsome'- I am the subject, handsome is the predicate. If you say 'I exist' it's equivalent to saying 'I am'- there is no predicate, it's a linguistic illusion. 'I am existing' sounds right, but it's the equivalent of 'I am amming'.

So there's good reason to lose 'To Be' in a way there's no good reason to lose my mismatched kitten wigwam, or my triceratops swaddling. (Sorry Gypsy).
 
 
Bruno
19:38 / 30.04.05
I agree with Lucky Liquid that Zerzan's writings are not practical. They are so hypothetical that I felt like I was reading science fiction. If someone tried to put those ideas into practice it would be some Moonraker type shit, that's god-complex mentality.

Language would exist one way or another even if we stopped talking and counting... things like body language, eye contact, gait etc are linguistic and they're not just restricted to humans. As long as people have the ability to make choices, they immediately have 'or' and 'and' and 'not' as part of their mental syntax, while the vocabulary is the 'set' of their choices.

The theory that language affects thought is called the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. Benjamin Whorf the linguist wrote some killer articles about it, especially the way the Hopi perceive time differently... Not using 'be' would probably change one's perception of time.
 
 
Seth
11:11 / 01.05.05
Quantum: In practise I’m finding your position is missing the forest for an interest in a single peculiar tree.

Your point is not disputed, but there are such a huge number of other ways in which language is an imperfect model of the world that it seems a little naïve to pick up on just one of those. Because in addition to E-Prime you could thoroughly learn the Meta Model, or start to pick out instances in which language seems to favour dualistic though, or pick apart the language patterns that get frequently used in politics…

And you’ll eventually get to the realisation that all language is built on assumptions and distances one from what the world is actually like. You could use a word like kitten, but that would leave out so much information about the nature of what is being described that you’d have to conclude that it could be seen to be potentially misleading shorthand n many contexts.

It’s a miracle that successful communication happens at all. The important thing is that the whole system of language has its important uses, but should not to be mistaken for the world. Singling out specific instances is useful for coming to this understanding, and will give you good techniques for when the situation arises, but only in the context that the whole of language is assumed and potentially misleading shorthand.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
22:06 / 01.05.05
I was (oh my, how did that word get into this sentence?) under the impression that e-prime developers in the 30s had made efforts to gain interest in scientific communities - in hopes that non-language-geeks could find the means to communicate their results more clearly - maybe even to people other than science geeks.

I don't think e-prime works as well verbally as it does in something like a user's manual.

George Orwell's "On Politics and the English Language" provides some simple guidelines for clarifying expression. Apparently what "clarifying expression" might mean is anyone's guess.

What is being?
That's like saying, "What is is?"
Or, "Is is is?" for that matter.
?
yet, here we are.

ta
pablo
 
 
odd jest on horn
00:43 / 02.05.05
I don't think e-prime works as well verbally as it does in something like a user's manual.

On that note, I have a 150 page guide to basic linux administration through the command line, written entirely in e-prime. If I were to judge from that book, e-prime seems wonderfully suited to technical writing.
 
 
SteppersFan
19:31 / 28.05.05
e-prime's good shit. A few years ago I spent a few months doing the quantum psychology book with a group and doing e-prime. Very valuable, for me / us, anyway.

As to Gypsy's point about whether it's useful in real life, I'd suggest trying it when having an argument with your partner.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
20:51 / 29.05.05
Because in addition to E-Prime you could thoroughly learn the Meta Model, or start to pick out instances in which language seems to favour dualistic though, or pick apart the language patterns that get frequently used in politics…

My! Those are very good suggestions as well. I think we should try some of those. I was working on the meta model and on e-prime. right now I intend to start working on e-prime. Later I plan to go back to work on using the meta-model. Maybe them both together.

By Dualistic thought would you be suggesting deconstruction?

Hmmm... reworking for E-Prime.

I like those suggestions. I think we should try some of those. I worked on learning the meta-model and e-prime. Right now I intend work on e-prime. Later I plan to go back to the meta-model. Then, perhaps, I can integrate them both.

When you say dualistic thought do you mean deconstruction?
 
 
Seth
15:51 / 31.05.05
When you say dualistic thought do you mean deconstruction?

I mean the way many language patterns tend to be dualistic. In a similar manner to the meta-model a challenge to someone's tendency to simplify the world into polar opposites will reconnects them to their experience rather.

What do you mean by deconstruction in that sentence?
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:20 / 31.05.05
considering language as a spell you cast on yourself every time you think, what you are spelling out to yourself.

dualistically speaking alchemy is useful in uniting otherwise divergent components, synthesis, truthful lies and lying truthes.

each thought binding consciousness into form space and time with the motion of thought, consciousness as something, not as a description of process, but consciousness as experience.

at the point of conception as thought comes into being.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
22:23 / 31.05.05
I meant deconstruction as an attack on dualistic language structures as some social scientists have adapted it from Derrida.
 
 
Seth
08:24 / 01.06.05
Yeah, I think we're thinking similar thoughts with different terminology.
 
  

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