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Underground > Temple >

Reinforcing christian demonisation through goetic practices.

Unconditional Love

20:43 / 15.04.05

starting to look at the goetia and the demons mentioned, i started to notice a few of the names i had encountered before in babylonian,egyptian and jewish mythology.

i researched the some of the names on the wikipedia, for example>

beelzebub

others include amon,ashtaroth,bael,berith.

in parts of the articles it mentions that these demons were once gods and goddesses of other cultures.

what struck me was that by invoking in the goetic context you could be affectively reinforcing the medieval christian demonisation and earlier demonisation of these ancient divinities. to cast these gods in the role of demon would be highly disrespectful of the gods themselves and also to the communities that may still interact with them, and the communities that are reconstructing interactions with these gods, for example the khemetic and jewish pagan communities.

i then started to think about a system of interaction that did not bind said gods/goddesses and also did not hurl abuse at them by ordering them around in the name of there supplanter,effectively hurling abuse at them to do service.

would it not be better to approach these beings in a respectful way?

trouser the trouserian

22:25 / 15.04.05

Try it and see....

trouser the trouserian

08:49 / 16.04.05

Your concern for respect is admirable, but in this instance, I feel, misplaced. There does seem to be a notion flying around here that one must be 'respectful' to deities/spirits or they'll flounce off in a huff. But really, what constitutes respect? The Greeks for example, used to threaten their gods with punishment - for example this passage from Theocritus where the poet is in effect saying, "Pan, if you don't answer my prayer, I hope you're going to suffer really badly." (i.e. transferring his own discomforts to the god).

As to the Wikipedia entries, there is a most interesting entry on Baal - seperate to the entry on Baal in relation to the Goetia - which notes that although terms such as "Baal" are used as titles for various gods & goddesses, it is not their sole connotation.

Whilst it's obvious that the Goetia (particularly in its later versions) has a distinct Christian gloss, I do feel it's important to note that its origins are older than medieval Christianity. I mentioned on this thread the relationship of the Goetia to both the Greco-Roman & Arabic magical traditions and it might be useful to investigate the manner in which conjurations were structured in say, the theurgic tradition. For example, if you have a look at the Papyri Graecae Magicae you'll find that some of the addresses to spirits a quite similar in their structure to the conjurations in the Goetia. Again, this mode of commanding spirits by means of barbarous names and forceful language doesn't IMO originate with Christianity. Indeed, there may be a relationship between the structure of magical conjurations and legal language – conjuration of course being a legal term..

A work you might find of interest is this online annotation of the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum - possible precursor of the Goetia.

Unconditional Love

12:36 / 16.04.05

origins of "Papyri Graecae Magicae"

very intresting article discussing the syncretic character of the papyri.

more here.

Hans Dieter Betz: The "Mithras Liturgy". Text, Translation and Commentary, pdf avalible at bottom of page

more examples of incantations from a similar time period

Unconditional Love

13:23 / 16.04.05

Whatever you're calling the link">this article is worth reading in relation to the solomonic tradition of grimoires.

Unconditional Love

13:27 / 16.04.05

whoops.

testament of solomon

Unconditional Love

14:08 / 17.04.05

i am thinking i am in the right ball park here.
alot of the interaction suggested in the goetia is heavily influenced by a hierachical politics that exsisted within associated priesthoods when referring to the greek papyri or the later grimoires, these records act in a way to some extent like conquerers recordings.

the notion that the one god supremes name can be held over them to do there bidding effectively just reinforces, the idea that that one god supreme is indeed the only authority that commands all, it also helps define anything as opposed to that one god as being the enemy so to speak or be subjugated to that one gods will.

interacting with the goetic spirits in a traditional manner as prescribed is in effect empowering that one god and the notion of the politics involved in the person invovlved in the communication.

perhaps it is more fitting to approach demons in a demonic fashion rather than as an adversary, or perhaps in a humane manner.

the testament of solomon appears to me to be a display of the power of the lord, as does the key of solomon, look at the powers we wield, look at those we have subjugated because the lord is almighty......vomit.

20:26 / 19.04.05

It seems to me that this is basically an issue of assumptions. Does one assume that the universe is plastic, a responsive (entity?) that essentially interacts with consciousness, or does one assume that it has a specific structure that has resulted in certain forces which can be contacted through specific ritual and names. My personal viewpoint is of the former, as I am attracted to it's inherent flexibility.

Of course when one "does" Goetia, they are going to get results in keeping with expectations. It is a path that is well tried and true, and as a result, will give the practitioner just what they expect. If the universe is plastic and flexible, then yes, practicing Goetia probably reinforces the reality tunnel of a monotheistic god, and of demons. The question I would pose: Is this necessarily a bad thing? Is there not room for more than one reality tunnel in ,the universe? Is it actually a "war" between given viewpoints? The real question, IMO, is: When a reality tunnel is created, does it enforce it's will upon us, or do we enforce our will upon it, and what is the more desirable situation? I would argue the latter.

Unconditional Love

21:16 / 19.04.05

okay this blew me away,its from the dictionary of the history of ideas website and explains some of the underlying philosophy of demonology as it has come down to us, i was particularly taken by the comparissons laid out in the first paragraph between the greek notion of the one and the judeao/christian creator god, these are then elaborated on further in the article.

Unconditional Love

21:27 / 19.04.05

perhaps its an interaction between the reality tunnel and the will and intent of the magician, it can become very tempting to want it all to be under ones control, but i dont think that is the case entirely, if the reality were entirely in the hands of the magician,wouldnt we become like laplaces demon in some respects, all knowing?

in most magickal work i tend to think a transaction is taking place between a self and an other, in mystical work the difference may be that the merging of self and other takes place, but i think in mystical terms that removes the identity of both or all parties involved.

the idea of making a pact with a demon for example is in a sense that transaction with the other, although it could be argued that it was a communication with the unconscious self, but i think that can easily represent magick as a form of psychodramatic theray rather than as an art of dealing with spiritual or interdimensional forces.

trouser the trouserian

04:00 / 20.04.05

yaddah, yaddah, yaddah... and maybe wearing your underpants on your head during the license to depart could also be a factor? Look wolfie, if the notion of ordering spirits about really hacks you off, then either don't use the goetia, or simply rewrite the conjurations. Either way, try it out. See what happens. Report back.

06:36 / 20.04.05

the idea of making a pact with a demon for example is in a sense that transaction with the other, although it could be argued that it was a communication with the unconscious self, but i think that can easily represent magick as a form of psychodramatic theray rather than as an art of dealing with spiritual or interdimensional forces.

Hmmmm, it wasn't my intention to give the impression that I believe that such entities are all in "one's head". My point was in their origin. The question being: Have they always been there, or have we created them? Clearly in relating to an entity, anyone who has done serious work in evocation would have to admit that they are dealing with "an other" Is it not an assumption that these demons are the same entities as the gods and goddesses mentioned? Who's to say that they are not separate entities altogether, created by different inter-relations of consciousness?

trouser the trouserian

07:31 / 20.04.05

Is it not an assumption that these demons are the same entities as the gods and goddesses mentioned? Who's to say that they are not separate entities altogether, created by different inter-relations of consciousness?

That's a very good point Z. There's a wider issue raised by this thread which imo relates to how one conceives of the spirits of the Goetia. Are they entirely seperate entities hanging about on the 49th plane of lesser darkness - sniffing bags of geburah and playing the odd hand of poker - awaiting conjuration, or do they arise out of the total experience of the ritual? (which is not to imply that they purely 'internal' structures - which was Crowley's view of them - see the intro to his edn of the Clavicle). One of the first "successful" Goetic operations I took part in was an attempt to question the spirit Vassago regarding the optimum conditions for successful evocation - and our resultant impressions was that the goetic spirits "liked" all the business with a fixed circle, triangle, flaming braziers and so forth. I have to say that I like the Goetic liturgy - declaiming it in ritual (particularly if you take the trouble to learn it) helps generate the emotional intensity that imo contributes greatly to the ritual process. Its my feeling that had we not inflamed our passions with the various conjurations, we wouldn't have been able to move into the state of perception where we had flickering mental impressions of the spirits taking form in the triangle of art, or for that matter, their attendant legions skittering around the edge of the circle.

01:40 / 22.04.05

Anyone worth thier salt, that has any workings in Goetia knows...the first and second rule. Don't talk about Goetia!
These demons are real, so tread lightly. And carry a big stick.

Unconditional Love

12:52 / 23.04.05

the more i read about about the background of the grimoires the less trust i have in any of them, from my reading so far its becoming apparent that from the 15th century onwards, most of them become very bad translations, and alot of the grimoires used by the golden dawn as source material are from these very bad translations.

another point that crops up occasionally in what i have been reading is the pseudo enochian tradition of john dee, which has very little to do with the enochian tradition at all. i think if i am correct also the writing of dee as translated by the golden dawn are also incorrect, are they not?

theres so much bullshit out there passing itself off as authentic, glad to find out really that the occult is still occult.