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Comics Writers from other media and their impact on genre conventions

  
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
17:21 / 15.04.05
Around about the time of Uncanny X-Men #362 (1998 or so), Cerebro gains sentience and attack the X-Men because of Bastion's nano-sentinels. Some vauge pseudo-science leads to a super-punchup.

Seven years later, it's the graphic suicide of a mutilated, depressed young boy that gives the Danger Room a similar level of self-determination (Astonishing X-Men #6-12). Vauge pseudoscience has been replaced by human drama and loss in a way most 1990s X-Men comics wouldn't attempt to deal with.

Likewise, it's not a shapeshifter or an evil plan that splits the Justice Leauge in time for Crisis 2. It's the coverup of a brutal rape, and the magical lobotomy of both villan and the Batman. Previously, it would have been the losses inflicted by killer robots, or Aquaman acting like a dick in the wake of a Martian invasion. Meanwhile, over at Marvel, it's the comic book madness of the Scarlett Witch that does for the avengers.

Now. The first modern example is less objectionable than the second, but when you look at the background of the writers, something interesting happens. Joe Kelly and Marvel editorial went for Nanosentinels, while TV teen auteur Joss Wedon goes for the nasty, tragic suicide. Cerebro uses composite X-beings, the Danger Room uses the twisted corpse of poor fucking Wing to taunt Kitty Pryde.

Similarly, Brad Meltzer raped Sue Dibney via Dr Light and Max Lord popped one in the grill of the whistleblowing Blue Beetle in Countdown under the pen of Gregg Rucka. Rape and murder corespond pretty well to Meltzer and Rucka's day jobs as crime fiction writers.

Is it fair to be so hard on Meltzer and Rucka for writing events common to their native styles? Should the conventions of crime writing be discarded as soon as the capes and tights come into play? Or are comics simply returning to their pulp heyday, when hard crime and shiny costumes were less dissonant? Is Joss Wedon's seemingly traditional X-run doing the same old things with that team in ways alien to the host format?

And as these writers gain more success and garner more sales, are we going to see these trends increase?
 
 
Mario
22:00 / 15.04.05
The problem is not writers changing genre conventions. Comics change styles, periodically, and they will again.

The problem is "superstar" TV and movie writers being given comics based on their name value, but not taking the work seriously, because "It's just comics".

Joss takes his work seriously. JMS, slightly less so. Kevin Smith... don't get me started.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
22:14 / 15.04.05
Likewise, it's not a shapeshifter or an evil plan that splits the Justice Leauge in time for Crisis 2. It's the coverup of a brutal rape, and the magical lobotomy of both villan and the Batman. Previously, it would have been the losses inflicted by killer robots, or Aquaman acting like a dick in the wake of a Martian invasion. Meanwhile, over at Marvel, it's the comic book madness of the Scarlett Witch that does for the avengers.

Your argument runs into trouble right when you hit "Previously." And I think that's also the crux of your association of the trend and the other jobs held by the creators in question. I don't think any of those developments are necessarily the result of what Joss or Greg or Brad also do. In particular, I think Joss' run on Astonishing is positively overflowing with comic book madness (introduce the cremains of a Sentinel for about thirty seconds just to drop an important clue? BOIIINNNNGGG.)

As far as the crime angle goes, Brad and Greg's work has as just much in common with Ed Brubaker's gritty turn on Captain America, in which a shocking act of violence changes Steve Rogers' life forever. It's just the kinds of writers they are, and has less to do with whether two of them have been published by book houses and one has not.

I've never minded an influx of writers from other media writing comics. I'm worried about bad writers. Hudlin didn't impress me on Black Panther. Heinberg stunned me with quality on Young Avengers.

And as far as "high profile" goes, I think we're lucky enough in the state of the medium that quality of creator is still the main deciding factor in how truly high profile a project is (see: DC All Stars' basis solely in established creators of quality, who happen to have started their careers in comics.) There's an unspoken quality about the work of Meltzer or Smith or Winnick (at first) or Heinberg that, ultimately is good for all of us: They're Treated By The Fans As Noobs. Notice that the big shake up in Identity Crisis affected a character seen by most as several tiers below your average SuperStarHero. Whereas it was Geoff Johns, hero to the comic fan, who brought back Hal Jordan. You can see the instant mistake made by Marvel by putting Hudlin on a much more established character after such a brief tenure on Black Panther (a character, realistically, no one cares about), Spider-Man: Universal Panning.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:25 / 15.04.05
There are also some flaws in the initial premis:

Greg Rucka wrote Countdown to crisis in colaboration with Geoff Johns & Judd Winick. So does this mean Countdown is 33% similar to Joss Wendon on AXM or JMS on Spidey? It's a somewhat uneven comparison.


The concept of a "native style" seems a little odd to me... can't quite pin down why at the moment. On Rucka's writing I thought he did some great stuff in the No Man's Land story arch of BATMAN. Come to think of it; having Joker murder Commissioner Gordon's wife and get shot in the knee in responce, was pretty hardcore. It was good though, well parts of it where; that story in particular. Would that story arch be considered a crime or a postapocalptic genre?

Actually, comics tend to blend genres frequently.

I can see how comics (like most media) will be affected by other media trends. Should be more likely attribute the increase of graphic violence in comics to video games? Lots of comics have made the migration, and while Wolverine wasn't disembowling anyone in the last game I played of his, I hear the Punisher has.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:47 / 15.04.05
yikes... that post was rather incoherent... sorry bout that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:38 / 16.04.05
Or, going back, the Green Arrow/Green Lantern stories in the 70s - full of gritty urban drama. I think one problem here is that Meltzer's use of rape was not ruled out of court simply because it was a use of rape - as we have discussed elsewhere, rape and sexual violence have cropped up in comic books before. It was that it was introduced for no particularly good reason and wasn't handled in an interesting or useful way.

One question might be, why are writers from other genres - Rucka, Rodi, Whedon, Jim Michael StraJimski, Chabon, MIchael Moorcock - writing comics? I suspect in many cases it is not for the money or the status, but because they were comic book geeks when they were growing up and are now in effect Jim'll Fix Iting. Mind you, the money as a genre writer may not be great either - I don't know how well-known Rucka and Melzer are. I'd never heard of them, but then I imagine not many people reading comics think of Robert Rodi as a novellist first, so...
 
 
sleazenation
12:12 / 16.04.05
I'm not sure what this thread is trying to explore. It seems to be aiming at the perception that writers who have achieved some element of success in media other than comics are entering and transforming mainstream comics and the further assumption from some fans that these writers are either uninformed or somehow unqualified to write about men in tights. Is this the case?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:40 / 16.04.05
And can we have a thread in 'TV and films' for comics book writers to writers in those mediums, and a thread in Music so we can bitch about Alan Moore singing?
"Quack!"
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
20:45 / 16.04.05
I don't see much need for a thread about comic book writers in music, unless Grant's managed to sell more than three ass2ass CDs at his local car boot...
 
 
This Sunday
23:04 / 16.04.05
Lydia Lunch - music, comics, and references to her in music and comics.

Darren Aronofsky - comics and film, both damn good and damn good at both.

Jim Steranko - started in comics, leapt to film and other design, leapt back into comics

Has anyone heard any of Morrison's old bands' stuff? Any good?

Alan Moore - lovely speaking voice, not so lovely singing, er, thing-that-replaces-voice.

Both Grant and Alan can do some pretty good art, aside from their writings.

Glen Danzig - music and comics and stuff that bleeds a bit back and forth.

Joe Lansdale - prose to comics and prose about comics' characters (his Batman novel was surprising still very Lansdale-esque, despite being a work of shepherding corporate-owned characters and sold as a YA or whatever you call it work)

Tim Burton - sorry, but Melancholly Death of Oyster Boy was a comic, being pictures and words utilized together to tell story. Any arguments against this, I cannot buy into.

Norman Mailer - there's a book out of his little, not-intended-for-commercial-distribution comics, I believe.

Dorothy Parker, Vladimir Nabokov, and probably loads of other literary-type, respectable-face-of-entertainment people dug comics, and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if nobody took a Chabon-style crack at doing them, unlike Chabon, under an alias.

Umberto Eco - I don't believe he's ever done comics, but he's known to love them more than most people (you have to get a bit deep into comics befor you really worry about name pronunciations on J'onn J'onnz or Wakanda), and is rumoured to have proposed some mainstream comics super-tights stuff, only to have a certain Time-Warner-AOL-owned publishing house turn it down.
 
 
sleazenation
23:31 / 16.04.05
Doris Lessing did a graphic novel that was reportedly terrible...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
07:33 / 22.04.05
Something to mention after reading some reviews and opinions of the latest Young Avengers...

Allen Heinberg, writer of The O.C., has seemingly introduced a character of questionable sexuality, Hulkling, into Young Avengers. In the recent issue, #3, it is stated that Hulkling is male and previous issues have hinted at some sort of sexual tension/chemistry between Hulkling and Asgardian (Hulk and Thor analogues respectively).

Now in this issue there is a letter stating that "...I do think a super hero comic is not the platform for exploring "sexual identities", especially for characters that are teenagers."
Allen answers it gracefully but it made me think of this thread and the sort of stories expected from comics against the sort of stories that are expected in shows like The O.C. (currently featuring a lesbian romance).

With the proliferation of writers from one industry to another is there a reason the writer should change style or preferred topics just because the format is different? Especially if the targeted age range (teenagers) is the same?


(obviously I'm ignoring the larger question about "exploring sexual identities" but I wanted to be pertinent to this thread)
 
 
sleazenation
08:22 / 22.04.05
Surely the only stories that should be expected from any medium are engaging, enjoyable stories...
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
09:09 / 22.04.05
According to this letter writer there are some engaging subjects that should be blacklisted...

If Dawsons Creek can do it why not comics?
 
 
sleazenation
10:33 / 22.04.05
The letter-writer was wrong, pure and simple.

This appears to be just the latest iteration of the mistaken belief that media and art should be crafted so as to be 'suitable for children', seemingly regardless of whether or not that children are the intended audience. Some proponents of this argument are absolutists, seeking kerbs on all art, others are more insidious and seek a gradual infantalization process. It is essentially the same argument.

It should be added that there is some disagreement as to what 'suitable for children actually entails' - some people think that homosexuality is beyond the pale, others seem to think that sex is something that can only occur within marriage... it depends on the ideology of the would-be censor.

And yes, this is about censorship. The argument that media and art should be crafted so as to be 'suitable for children' it is a flawed precisely because it seeks to impose ideological limitations on what can be written about and portrayed in the media.
 
 
TroyJ15
03:52 / 25.04.05
...but I think media that has potential kid-appeal has responsibility to not push the envelope on certain subjects. Which is why I'm glad Marvel developed a rating system over the last few years.

Back to the subject however...if the question is do writers from other mediums hurt comic books. I'd have to say "God No." Bad stories and bad marketing strategies hurt the industry. And you dont have to come from TV and Movies in order for that to happen --- I mean look at what happen in the mid-90s! There were no Kevin SMiths and Alan Heinbergs then.

Not to say that the person who originally posted this was trying to make this point, but...I'm tired of people bitching about creators from other mediums coming into the industry. There are no more negatives from this than if creators came from inside the industry. If anything it...

A) Gives the industry credibility in the eyes of the public, because now "real" writers (not my words) are doing comic books.
B) It brings in people who dont usually read comics because they are curious why THIS guy who did that movie/show is doing this now. And they follow him whereever he goes. One reason Astonishing X-Men sells so damn well because the legion of Buffy followers came with Joss Whedon to read his book (and please don't say that appealing to non-fanboys is irrelevant because if that didn't happen the industry would not grow and it would flounder. Which is more and more of a reality with all the other things vying for a consumers attention)
c) It brings in a new perspective. I'm sorry but in the case of alot of these established characters, when a writer comes aboard, he still writing a traditional "comic book story." Some people are better at presenting a "comic book story" than others (Grant Morrison for example) but there is always a Chuck Austen who likes do the usual bad-guy-joins-team, wins-teams trust-and-then-turns-on-team scenario OR a Chris Claremont who thinks every five issues of X-Men should have them playing baseball! Another writer from another medium can bring something new to the plate! (And yes that means same sex romances in an Avengers title)
D) This may be hard to accept, but they dont feel bogged down by convoluted continuity (and I'm sorry but alot of continuity is convoluted). They walk in with a fresh attitude of not being scared to shake up the fans and Tell THEIR story the best way they know how and not worry about how in issue 38 of Power PAck PEter PArker said he'd never eat M&Ms and here in a book 10 years later he is eating M&Ms!
E) It's not taking jobs away from "pure" comic book writers either --- Do you realize how many @$%^&*ing comic books come out in a month. Flip through Previews! the DC section alone will make you wonder how the industry has not turned into a over-filled Waterballon!

Sorry for any misspelling but that was a rant.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
17:56 / 25.04.05
"It was that it was introduced for no particularly good reason and wasn't handled in an interesting or useful way."

It's the moments when you post comments like this, where you list a series of reasonable well-thought out facts followed by a bone-headed-a fide opinion as if it is on the same level that I'm amused your parents let you use their PC on a school night.

The bigger issue here is the role of the writer to the reader/fan. The fact that not Light but Brad hisself is looked upon as the rapist is reactionary silliness.

The comic market has changed so much in the past ten years that I actually look at the dialogue coming out of Hal Jordan's mouth and miss that he was just knocked into an asteroid by a magic ring. I pick up Green Lantern to see what Johns will do with the character, not to see a magic ring fight... what's up with that??

The medium and those within it is mutating. The fact that writers from other mediums are coming into the stream is just another adaptation of comics to the environment.
 
  
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