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Tricksters

 
 
w1rebaby
19:55 / 10.09.01
I don't know whether this is the right place for this question, but fuck it, there's probably someone here who can help me.

I'm currently interested in the similarities of the Western European "Satan" figure with the classic "trickster" figure in various other mythologies.

I dimly remember some details of how Satan appears in medieval English folklore which struck me as particularly similar to similar Norse fables, not that surprisingly. I'm just wondering whether anyone has any info, links, opinions or whatever on this. I'm looking at it from an anthropological/psychological POV I guess but any perspective is welcome.

Ta for anything.
 
 
..
22:42 / 10.09.01
I read once that the Satan figure we have today grew out of the pagan Trickster figure Pan, in appearance but also in his unpredictable behaviour.

And of course there's always this, from Ranger DJ's Devotions Collection:


quote: Satan the Trickster

Make two cool whip container packages. Put a toy prize in one container and a rotten egg in the other. Package them up nice and ask who wants a prize. Explain that Satan can trick us with something that looks good, but it turns out bad.

 
 
Lothar Tuppan
02:42 / 11.09.01
the Eshu spirits in Candomble, Santeria, Palo Mayombe, etc. are very much Luciferian (note that I said Luciferian not Satanic) in their aspects. They are also 'tricksters'. Ellegua seems to be more benevolent but even he has his 'dark' aspects.

Grant can probably add more to that.

I also find the similarities between Lucifer and Prometheus to be incredibly intriguing.
 
 
Lurker in the corner
03:12 / 11.09.01
Lucifer the LightBearer
Prometheus who gave light to man
Loki who put fire in men's blood

What is it with the tricksters and their association with fire? Someone once said it is because fire is a destructive force tht man hasn't really tamed but has sort of enslaved.

Any theories?
 
 
the Fool
04:34 / 11.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Cobweb:
Someone once said it is because fire is a destructive force tht man hasn't really tamed but has sort of enslaved.


Have we enslaved the flame or are we enslaved by it? Is there a difference?
 
 
grant
18:16 / 11.09.01
Fire is hypnotic, fast, unpredictable and destructive. It's also damn useful.

Eleggua plays pranks, yeah. Usually to teach people a lesson.

I've heard the Eshus can be downright nasty and even lethal, but I don't know much more than that.

Eleggua (or Papa LaBas, rather) is often conflated with the "devil at the crossroads" who will teach you mastery of guitar (or fiddle, or whatever instrument/tool) if you go and play at the crossroads for nine Sundays at midnight. Not quite the same, but similar.

Eleggua and Coyote both have stories about them stretching out their penises and having the ends cut off because they looked like snakes.

Eleggua is associated with the colors red and black, too.

Raven, a trickster, is a spooky black animal. Hmm.
 
 
firecracker
01:55 / 12.09.01
i recommend looking up Archetypes (shadow, trickster) and Symbolism and the Collective Unconscious (jung?) and also the Tarot(devil 15). there is a common thread. i think there is a book called the "the origins of satan" or "the origins of the devil". the real question is why do we have a need for a devil? something so evil*, 'i could never be that bad', trust me, you can.

my spelling suks i know
 
 
Analogues On
16:12 / 14.09.01
Tricksters are mythic figures notorious for exaggerated biological drives and well-endowed physique; partly divine, partly human, and partly animal, often amoral and comic troublemaker. Tales of tricksters are ironic arenas in which corporeality and transcendence, the individual and society, meaning and the absurd, are mediated and celebrated.
Apart from Loki, Pan is probably the best known western trickster god, and an Ur-fertility deity, who with his human torso and goat legs and horns represents an anthropomorphic synthesis of man and nature, and as such, the animalistic and primal urges in our (un-) consciousness; he basically eats, sleeps and fucks without recourse.
As with all such early religions, this early animistic worship was usurped in time by more modern fertility religions (in the Mediterranean it was probably by way of Apollo, Dionysus, Attis and eventually the Christ). This is a typical anthropological movement: from the worship of fertile Earth deities towards that of fatherly Sky gods.
In the case of the pantheistic Greeks, many gods are allowed to happily co-exist. Pan teaches Apollo to play the panpipes, or accompanies Dionysus, whenever he and his followers decided to whore the countryside. (crazy sex gods + wild women + clay dildos and wine = a good night out in Ancient, and probably Modern, Greece).

In the case of the monotheistic church of the Christ however, the creative Pan figure (amoral sexuality, chaotic inspiration) cannot co-exist as a form of worship alongside the humble hanging god and so is relegated to that of a destructive adversary figure. He therefore becomes demonised, an evil spirit or Devil. The term Devil is really a convenient tag for all that guilt-ridden man has come to fear in both himself and the world (which Pan, conversely, rejoices in.
Where Christianity succeeds (figuratively speaking) is in reducing the world to a belief in diametrically opposed forces (Good v Evil, Truth v Lies, God v Satan, whereas, remember that in Greek Pan literally means EVERYTHING.)

Demonised: The term Satan is related to a Mazdaian name (Ahriman-Sheitan), a djinn whose sin was lack of submission to Ormazd Allah (God). The idea of Lucifer (the bringer of light) is indeed close in spirit to Prometheus (the bringer of fire), who opposed the will of God and suffered because of it. Basically this is a subtle form of social and psychological conditioning – disobedience to God or The Law will not be tolerated. The wages of sin are death.
In this way Satan is an essentially tragic figure (as presented by Milton especially).

Coyote, Raven and Spider seem to be purer tricksters; chaotic and benevolent. Don’t really know much about them. Try reading My Life in the Bush if Ghosts for stories of trickster-type African spirits.

Loki meanwhile is really a world of his own, neither a force of creation nor a fallen angel. He is quite unlike the biblical Tempter/ Satan in his actions, although his masterminding of the death of Baldur and his scene stealing show in Ragnarok makes him a kind of anti-Christ.

None of this may be true… down the rabbit hole, with a little help from bartleby.com

[ 14-09-2001: Message edited by: RedRunningLord ]
 
 
..
18:05 / 14.09.01
Off Topic ---

Judging by your member #, it's fitting that your first post be about Satan, RedRunningLord.
 
 
Analogues On
08:49 / 15.09.01
Duly noted mon Tigre. And to think that I was going to make my first post on the "my favorite colour is red" board.

This member # obviously carries great power and responsibility. But in the wrong hands could unleash thread after thread of irritating tedium.
It may already be too late....

[ 15-09-2001: Message edited by: RedRunningLord ]
 
 
deja_vroom
16:51 / 18.09.01
quote: By Lucifer himself:
And to think that I was going to make my first post on the "my favorite colour is red" board.


Can you direct me to that thread, please?
Thank you.
 
 
Analogues On
18:54 / 18.09.01
Rumbled!

That board currently exists only in my backbrain, Yu-huang-shang-ti. But it can easily be transferred to the forum by scratching my left horn.

If you would like to ready the Emperor’s Royal Back Scratchers……
 
  
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