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Demons. Know them, love them, give them a cookie.

 
 
Vadrice
18:57 / 08.04.05
sure, Lepidopteran. Let's talk.
 
 
Vadrice
19:04 / 08.04.05
It's always been hard for me to look at any secular spiritual being (aside from my perception of ghosts) as anything but a demon. It's the Christian country I live in.

Hence, it's always the demons I'd prefer to talk to, have as a monkey on my back, look for in readings and writings, and look for in myself. Since I'm not nearly as sensative as I stopped focusing on the spiritual world to the exclusion of the physical (I know... there's a balance there... but I'm still busy with my dualities and all or nothing mentality. Leave me to it for now), I miss the old folk I use to party with.

So tell me stories! demon stories!
 
 
Chiropteran
19:06 / 08.04.05
Wow, someone was listening...

Uh, let me check my notes...*shuffles papers* I'm sure I have something...

~L
 
 
Chiropteran
19:34 / 08.04.05
Can I start with a question? What exactly do you mean by "secular spiritual beings?" I do have some idea what you're talking about, but I'm wondering just where and how you make the distinction.

~L
 
 
Vadrice
19:51 / 08.04.05
By secular I meant not drawing power from a devine source. I know that this is not necessarily everyone's deffinition, as many people think of a demon as being powered by ANTIGOD power of doom and thus not secular but anti-religious, but I find it to be more classicly correct.
 
 
eye landed
08:06 / 11.04.05
what is a demon?

follows an idea not directly derived from any tradition, but drawing on all the ones i know. but first a foil.

an angel is an independent (anthropomorphizable) entity that exists with or without humanity. for example, gravity. of course we only know angels by how our interactions with them, so for us the gravity angel holds us in her grounded embrace, but for the moon the gravity angel makes her spin, and for the ocean the gravity angel makes her dance. angels can help us if we appeal to them without expecting to change their nature.

an angel cannot be identified with an actual organism like a plant or animal. after all, living organisms are the third, middle term. but a plant or animal can reflect the nature of an angel who dwells in a particular place. a beautiful tree suggests that angels of weather, light, and geological processes meet there harmoniously.

a demon is a principle that exists within (human) culture. they only came into existence (fell from heaven) when we as animals became as god: able to create. some/many/most/all are deformed from angelic principles. examples of demons are crime, lust, hours, letters, television, and pollution. also any sigil or egregore. demons can help us because we design them to do so, but since we are imperfect creators they (almost always) take more than they give. some demons approach perfection and some wallow in extreme evil.

an organism can reflect a demonic nature as well. some demonic organisms are pleasing--well groomed, well bred, useful. others are gruesome--malnourished, poisoned, enslaved.

some things are ambiguous, like music and gifts. is music a creation of human culture, or an attempt to reflect angelic principles? is giftgiving a demonic abberation or is it a symbol of divine love?

i think anything humans do is demonic, except maybe mysticism. demons arent necessarily evil, just imperfect. music is demonic not because its bad for us, but because it causes suffering by not perfectly harmonizing space and time and everything according to our known principles of universal resonance. and sometimes it seems like it does, and the imperfection only becomes apparent when we stop playing. even a demon can give us a hopeful glimpse of divinity.

demons are created by yang imbalance. when the structure or plan (yin) is not up to the task of containing/guiding the power (yang), the resulting entity accumulates evil. however, an excess of yang allows quick results because more energy is invested in power rather than guidance. this is why sexual energy can be used to charge sigils when its not used for making babies: the yang is expended quickly during orgasm, and without the long process of creating a baby structure, that power is available for other uses. techniques such as dance, trance, and drugs aim to create a similar yang surplus by raising our potential ability--or expectation--beyond what we can channel into the situation. the autonomic nervous system may be involved, in that even a simulated survival response can align a human to greater potential.

sorry if im not making sense. i havent seen sin city.

By secular I meant not drawing power from a devine source.

but what is devine (divine)? is anything spiritual also divine? like my close relationships with trees? or does divinity refer to the creator of the universe? or does it refer to something beyond the universe? or something else...?
 
 
BARISKIL666
10:27 / 11.04.05
From my understaning of the Enochian Universe,Angels are informative and Demons operative,though they are essensially different aspects of the same thing.
 
 
Vadrice
17:30 / 11.04.05
by devine I ment ninja.

um... no. Nevermind. By devine I meant from any purly spiritual external source. So they (demons) are acting under personal power (like an atheist magician) as opposed to... um... creatures acting under some other spiritual force as agents of that force.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:55 / 12.04.05
I was most intruiged by Grant M. saying that demons, in his experience, were pretty much human fears and neuroses embodied as entities. He talked about being able to purge yourself of issues, fears, anxieties, etc. by personifying them as demons and then doing workings to expel them.

Most demons I've seen in fiction could very well be explained as entities made of fear, doubt, anger, etc. that have developed sentience or taken on a life of their own...
 
 
trouser the trouserian
20:12 / 12.04.05
I was most intruiged by Grant M. saying that demons, in his experience, were pretty much human fears and neuroses embodied as entities. He talked about being able to purge yourself of issues, fears, anxieties, etc. by personifying them as demons and then doing workings to expel them.

Incidentally, that very idea is the driving theme of Ramsey Dukes' new book Uncle Ramsey's Little Book of Demons subtitled "The positive advantages of the personification of life's problems" - soon to be released by Aeon Books.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:49 / 12.04.05
Yeah but I tried that with my paranoia and you know what? Really didn't work.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:27 / 12.04.05
Sorry, that was unhelpful. What I mean is, that kind of working can be very powerful and helpful; it can also go completely tits up and leave you back at square one or worse. It's the sort of thing that needs much careful thought and contingency planning. You have to come at it from a place of strength and be very certain that once you've externalised these beasties, you'll be able to deal with them rather than allowing them to grow in power.
 
 
Unconditional Love
23:16 / 12.04.05
in my experience, with paranoia especially you have to allow these things to grow to there fullest limit first, before external/internalising them, and then deal with them in the context you find them in. which may require all sorts of methods, magical ,practical and social.

lon milo duquette describes his manifestation of a demon that sounds like sloth in this mp3 radio interview here

lon milo mp3 55mb file or so

the process he decribes in the interview is very similar to the idea of facing ones own demons and then employing them as servants.
 
  
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