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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Life before Birth

20:51 / 07.04.05

Holy God.

Shall we not go and have a conversation in the Abortion thread just yet?

I defy even the most opinionated amongst us (me) not to have wept during Roger McGough's poem "I feel my mother cry, I fel my mother sing" accompanied with beautiful alien-eyed babies, yawning and hiccupping in the womb.

21:13 / 07.04.05

I think it's likely there will be very few of us posting in this thread - it doesn't have the instant conversation satisfaction of 'The Apprentice' or 'Big Brother', and there aren't so many parents amongst us; not that I think you need to be a parent to have appreciated this, but being a parent is possibly what attracted me to it in the first place.

But that's OK. Somewhere to write is as good as people to write with.

Roger McGough is a very clever man. His, 'Mother, must you think only of yourself ....it deepens like a coastal shelf' lines on stress during pregnancy were a wonderful nod to Philip Larkin and his 'life before birth...my time is done' poem, which suggested that birth was in effect death for the unborn child sent me spiralling into visions of universe upon universe upon universe.

I have never considered that the process of growing your life was a life in itself, one already undertaken, before now.

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

21:33 / 07.04.05

Huh.

My wife and I watched it, she's six months pregnant.

Thought the special effects were good, the approach to birth extremely questionable, and of course there was the ever present indication that all births happen in sterile hospital settings which really gets on our tits these days.

The poetry was doggerel at best. Really hate McGough now, and I had no idea who he was before.

Also the constant over-anthropomorphization of the foetus was a sticking point.

Oh! And the hugely thoughtless bit of his poetry where McGough says something along the lines of "Will they like what they see? / If not, it will be curtains for me" in reference to people aborting malformed foetuses due to ultrasound scans. Can you even imagine how bad that would make a woman faced with that decision (or recently having made it) feel? I forgot that. Fuck McGough, he's a cock. I consider him my creative nemesis now. Shit poet.

So, all in all... 4 or 5 out of 10, from both of us.

And not a single tear.

00:34 / 08.04.05

R McGough's work, as I understand it, is the pretty much the sine-qua-non of professional Scouserism -

"'Ey mate, you don't frigging gerrit about real feelings, like in Gerry Marsden, or Bread !

" Yer frigging student. "

I'd be happy enough to see that joint nuked to be honest, to a soundtrack by Frankie, The Farm, Sonya and The Lotus Eaters, but in the meantime, very good luck with the youngster, Tom TI, and here's a thing I've written in honour of the occasion, with best wishes, after the style of the 60's Liverpool beat poets.

It's called 'Trebor Mints.'

Terbor mints
Were great,
I ate some
They were ace.
As
I watched her, posh,
Outside the bank,
Blonde hair, sussies,
Her Dad drove a tank
In The War, she said.
So much better than me,
She thought -
On the bus though
On the way back home
I had a...

And that showed
Her.

My real name is
Robert
Stnim

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

09:22 / 08.04.05

Aww, I'm touched. We should embroider that and put it above the baby's crib, so as to induce nightmares.

11:17 / 08.04.05

I think I must just be very sentimental then, because I thought it was lovely.

Oh! And the hugely thoughtless bit of his poetry where McGough says something along the lines of "Will they like what they see? / If not, it will be curtains for me" in reference to people aborting malformed foetuses due to ultrasound scans.

I think you've miss-remembered that. Those lines came right near the end, just before the birth and referred to meeeting the parents. The baby was miles and miles past the cut off point for abortion. Come on, despite what you might think about Roger McGough you surely can't believe he'd actually refer to something so serious in such a flippant way?

12:00 / 08.04.05

Actually, I clearly remember that piece of poetry occurring well within the legal abortion limit, 10- 14 weeks, when the film focussed on a woman going for her booking scan.

Honestly, I mainly watched to see the 4D scans of babies around the same gestation as mine. I hope everyone who watched that realised that the only actual scans were the block colour images. The rest (and the large majority of the film) was all animatronics- you got that right?

Pictures that looked like this were the only actual ultrasounds.

I also vehemently object to the presentation of ultrasound as a bonding device. As if women were unable to bond with their unborn babies until glorious medical science came along and intervened. When I went for my booking scan, it was clear to me that my baby was extremely unhappy about this intrusion by wriggling around desperately trying to escape the transducer and I personally found the heavy pressing on my belly quite painful.

I do find the advent of 4D scans amazing and what they can tell us about fetal behaviour is wonderful- yawning, jumping around as young as 12 weeks, startling at loud noises etc. My reservations are not for the technology but for the interpretations of what we see. Just because a fetus displays some behaviours that we can easily anthropomorphise does not mean that we should assume mature status and I think there is a real danger of that occurring with overly sentimentalised films like this one.

12:10 / 08.04.05

The rest (and the large majority of the film) was all animatronics- you got that right?
Agree with the rest, NG, but there was quite a lot of "internal" filming as well. I particularly disliked the claim that the 4D scan showed the baby "exploring" its nose. Looked to me like the uterus wall was moving and had shoved the hand up towards the face.

13:39 / 08.04.05

NG, do you think people change their standpoint on abortion just because of a film then? I haven't. Seeing pictures of babies inside the womb has always amazed me but I still wouldn't suddenly start to rail against abortion just because of them.

It makes me feel uncomfortable, sure, but then I think the subject of abortion isn't something anyone takes lightly. That film hasn't changed my point of view, I was just suggesting that films like that make you think hard.

Anyway. I am glad I thought it was beautiful. It was nice for once just to be absorbed by something incredible without all the high end debate which usually accompanies these things, and I think that's OK now and then.

16:14 / 08.04.05

Agree with the rest, NG, but there was quite a lot of "internal" filming as well.

Really? The large majority of it looked incredibly fake, but I suppose the risky procedure of fetoscopy could account for some of it.

NG, do you think people change their standpoint on abortion just because of a film then

Yes, I do. I think it's rather niave to think that people don't. Particularly, I think films like these could irresponsibly influence a woman considering a termination to change her mind by emotively ascribing all manner of mature characteristics to fetal behaviour that we have no way of confirming.

I would be very interested to know how many scheduled abortions were cancelled today.

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

17:21 / 08.04.05

Come on, despite what you might think about Roger McGough you surely can't believe he'd actually refer to something so serious in such a flippant way?

Of course, I would agree with NG, but she's right. That line of poetry appeared at the end of the booking scan scene. I could download it to doublecheck if there's any doubt.

I didn't even know who McGough was until I saw this. Don't have any investment in smearing his name.

I mean, I hate the guy, but I'm not gonna lie about him.

miss wonderstarr

17:23 / 08.04.05

I didn't watch this programme and I'm not pregnant. However, I am confused as to how "anthropomorphise" can be used for a foetus. Doesn't the word imply making something seem as though it's human, eg. Disney films showing crabs and clocks acting like people? I regard myself as "pro-choice" but it seems a bit of a stretch to say an unborn human baby isn't the same species as human beings.

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

17:33 / 08.04.05

Perhaps "anthropomorphize" is an inaccurate term. What I meant was "ascribing personality or consciousness to foetal human beings." But that's a bit lengthy. I assumed everyone would catch my drift. Didn't mean to confuse.

For example, assuming a baby is examining it's nose (a la Cube's statement) when it might just be moving it's arm, or assuming a smile means a baby is happy when it might just be gas. Many reflexes get "ascribed personality or consciousness" inappropriate to the child's development. Parents in particular are guilty of this, and I'm sure I will do it with my baby as well.

Just not the ones on TV.

18:16 / 08.04.05

I watched some of it but found the poetry to be incredibly off-putting. I hate poetry at the best of times, but this stuff was truly awful and, frankly, I really could have done without the vaguely Bible-quote-sounding parts of it.

To be honest, those bits sounded like anti-abortion propaganda.

I would have preferred a purely scientific approach but then, that wasn't the point of the programme.

19:38 / 08.04.05

I think the point of it was to celebrate the development of life, and whilst I agree some of the poetry wasn't ace, there were some really nice lines and they made (me at least) think a little bit.

I don't see why it looks like anti-abortionist propaganda just because it attempted to combine shots of unborn babies with feelings of emotion. The growth of life is (should be) an emotional thing.

Maybe for some people it came across as propaganda, but I strongly agree with the woman's right to choose and I didn't feel it was a 'pro-life' programme. To me it was an artistic interpretation of the growth of a baby.

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

01:28 / 09.04.05

Hmm. I don't think it was pro-life propaganda, but I do believe that it could be easily used by pro-life propagandists. That's an important difference.

If there's any pro-life propaganda in this show, it's all in McGough's poetry. But thankfully, I think that's as likely to irritate people as not.

I think, without the poetry, I would have enjoyed it much more.

Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!

02:29 / 11.04.05

Just read this in a review if said program...

"As there is a fierce debate in progress about the date up to which it is acceptable to perform an abortion, this programme was making a very strong statement. Of course, if you are opposed to all abortions for religious reasons, say, this is not something you need to worry about. But if you are one of the millions of women who has had one, or is wondering whether to have one, then it matters very much indeed. For their sake, if noone else’s, we needed a programme that was completely free of anthropomorphic emotional overlays. And it was anthropomorphic in the sense that it often made something not yet fully human seem like a mature sentient being...[McGough's poetry was] very touching, in its way, but under the circumstances it felt like moral blackmail." - Paul Hoggart, BBC TV Website

He put the issue of anthropomorphization better than I could, and fairly summed my feelings up in his review.

12:27 / 11.04.05

I didn't see the programme, but the review I read rated McGough's commentary as startlingly bad - which made me wish I'd caught it.

Foust is SO authentic

14:32 / 11.04.05

Particularly, I think films like these could irresponsibly influence a woman considering a termination to change her mind by emotively ascribing all manner of mature characteristics to fetal behaviour that we have no way of confirming.

I would be very interested to know how many scheduled abortions were cancelled today.

Then I take it you admit your own position on abortion is also based on uncomfirmable assumptions about fetuses?

11:56 / 12.04.05

Then I take it you admit your own position on abortion is also based on uncomfirmable assumptions about fetuses?

I suppose so. My point is that almost all positions on abortion are based upon unconfirmable assumptions about fetuses. Perhaps we could do with examining what we can confirm as opposed to emotive speculations which IMHO serve only those with an axe to grind, not the vulnerable.