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Simon Fuller sells 19 Management

 
  

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Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:21 / 18.03.05
Gobsmacking amount of money. Deal was sealed with $125 Million cash!

What a fucker. And we still have to listen to records from Emma Bunton.
 
 
agvvv
15:39 / 18.03.05
We shouldnt forget Gareth Gates and Rachel Stevens either..
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:41 / 18.03.05
It would be a bit hard to forget Rachel Stevens, when she's been responsible for songs as good as 'Sweet Dreams My LA Ex' and 'Some Girls'.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
16:26 / 18.03.05
Would that be Rachel 'Cold Dead Eyes of a Serial Killer' Stevens, the former S Club 7 poppet?
 
 
agvvv
18:33 / 18.03.05
That would be quite right
 
 
gridley
19:09 / 18.03.05
Rachel Stevens... pfft...

Hannah was so much cuter.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:45 / 18.03.05
I'm with Shaftoe on this - Even if Rachel S *does* have the cold dead eyes of a serial killer, and even if she was the kind of blood-sucking virago she's often portrayed in teh tabs as being, she could easily still have been a lot more wearing than she's being at the moment, songs-wise. She hasn't done a duet with Jah Rule yet, she hasn't guested on the new 'Robbie,' I'm guessing she's still not returning Elton's phonecalls, and without wishing to go a bit far here, Some Girls, for example, still seems as interesting as a lot of what the Velvet Underground did, IMVHO. There's a similar sense of burned-out, coked-up nihilism and I'm not backing down from this as an opinion, no, not ever, no way.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:26 / 21.03.05
It would be a bit hard to forget Rachel Stevens, when she's been responsible for songs as good as 'Sweet Dreams My LA Ex' and 'Some Girls'.

Yeah, 'Some Girls' is great - not nearly so keen on 'Sweet Dreams..., though. As Fuller's been appointed to the board of the company - Bob Sillerman's CFX, previously known as Sports/Entertainment Enterprises - that have purchased 19, and as he's going to be working as their creative projects director or some such, it's likely that nothing much is going to change except Fuller's bank balance (he gets £64.5 million cash and shares now, and probably another £19 million in cash or options after this financial year is over). Of more interest is that CFX were the company that snapped up the rights to Elvis Presley's back catalogue recently, so they'll have a constant reassuring income off that, and can afford to take a few risks as a result. 19 also manages the Beckhams, and controls the Pop Idol shows, including (I think) American Idol, which was a massive ratings hit...
 
 
haus of fraser
08:45 / 22.03.05
Just out of curiousity is it just the management company that has been sold- or the entire 19 empire- which would make more sense finacially as it owns the rights to the 'Idol' francise- as far as I can tell the management company- although successful in Europe- hasn't had an act break the states since the Spice Girls- I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong- but if its just the mangement it seems like a terrific waste of money...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:09 / 22.03.05
Nah, its the lot. And the management company manage all the Idols from both sides of the pond - Clay Shitface and the big fat dude and all of 'em.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:12 / 22.03.05
Also, sorry to split hairs, but Rachel Stevens was in no way whatsoever 'responsible' for either "Sweet Dreams my LA X" or "Some Girls".

The first was penned by Cathy Dennis and the second was a 100% Richard X project...She just happened to be the poppet who lucked out with the cut. So it's her noggin on the cover, but hardly her responsibility. Could've just as easily been anyone else.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:17 / 22.03.05
Yeah yeah, and Elvis wasn't responsible for 'Hound Dog' either. Call me when you get just one clue about popular music (past, present and future).
 
 
haus of fraser
10:20 / 22.03.05
Yawn flyb's back....
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:13 / 22.03.05
Is that a yawn because he's right, or a yawn because you want to try and start another slagging match in this part of the board?
 
 
haus of fraser
11:50 / 22.03.05
yawn we've had this battle inconclusively before- its like a scratched record yawn...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:30 / 22.03.05
Because (I love this) Rachel Stevens and Elvis Presley are, no really, they are, comparable.

Peas in a pod.

Birds of a feather.

I mean, look : they both, at some point in their lives', have sung on a record. Separated at birth?

You decide.

A bit like grime producers and the Neptunes, really. All just the same! They all make tunes!

I'm off to get a clue about the industry I've worked in for the last 12 years. Where shall I seek this knowledge? Hmmm. Off to Google, maybe.

See ya!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
14:33 / 22.03.05


Rachel Stevens



Elvis Presley

Y'know, that is spooky! And if you read their bio's, it's like two clones in different eras.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:36 / 22.03.05
I've got to say, Money Shot, I really love the way you invoke your unspecified music industry career all the time, especially in a thread like this. After all, we all know that nobody in the music industry could ever have an incorrect opinion about music!

If your point was not "artists who only provide the vocal to a song should not be treated as being 'responsible' for it", then what was your point?
 
 
haus of fraser
14:37 / 22.03.05
... so anyways a shed load of cash- but i assume 95% of that cash is buying the idol franchise rather than the right to manage Rachel Stevens/ Gareth Gates- and in terms of profitability a more sound investment-

also I'm wondering whether that means buying the rights to the spice girls back catalogue/ publishing- (while trying to avoid the tired argument of whose songs they are) who owns the publishing writes to the tunes? does Fuller/ 19 management buy the PRS from the songs writers or wot? As this is where a big chunk of your return comes in for a band- one would assume there was some kind of deal in place between the songwriters and the svengali, could be worth a few bob when the nineties nostalgia kicks in- in around 5- 10 years...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:46 / 22.03.05
If you think that there are details specific to Rachel Stevens which means she should not be given any credit for providing a vocal but other pop artists (such as Elvis) should, why not explain these details*? Pointing out that the examples are not EXACTLY TEH SAME will not help matters much.

(Much like how in the Run The Road thread, if you thought there were things specific about the tracks on that album which meant their 'basic' production would not be accepted despite the fact that other music with 'basic' production has been accepted, the onus was on you to explain why.)

*Hint: saying that Rachel is a stupid "poppet" and Elvis is a great artist will not suffice.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:04 / 22.03.05
Petey, you are like a 4 degrees of seperation music gynius.

Strangely enough, Rachel Stevens had a hit with a Richard X track, co-penned with Hannah Robinson for a totally different artist, who co-wrote with him for the Anniemal album (which you have a thread on somewhere), who turned down a track which was used for his Ciara remix, which kept Elvis off the number 1 spot in the UK not 3 weeks hence!

And its all here, in this very thread! From Rachel Stevens to Elvis in just 4 wee steps. I take it all back. I'm off to hide my shame, and weep at my cluelessness. Apologies for engaging in the Music Forum. Especially for mentioning, heaven forbid, that I occasionally (once in a blue moon) have some reasons for my wayward wattlessness. I will scuttle back to lurking in the Conversation, where I can be as clueless as I like without being pulled on it. About any thing, popular or otherwise.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:10 / 22.03.05
Arch Drude - depends...19 manage a load of production outfits, including (i think) at least one of Stannard and Rowe, who wrote / produced the spiceys. Prolly as part of the management deal there will be a percentage of publishing along with everything else, though not all of it by any stretch, that's if they don't sign whatever publishing you may have non-exclusively signed elsewhere to their own publishing company in the first place as part of the management deal (oon an 80/20 split). Even that bit is worth a shedload of cash though. And they would have had 50% of the merch rights, which is the biggest money spinner for acts like the Spice Girls (apart from the publishing) - and Gates / Stevens etc. (think calendars / lunchboxes, pencil cases / t-shirts etc.)
 
 
haus of fraser
15:22 / 22.03.05
but would they still be worth big bucks without the tv thing- did they have an american presence other than the spice girls pre 'idol'?

Surely the demand for spice girls merchandise is rock bottom - and with the s*club francise pretty much dead- what are they actually selling?
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:32 / 22.03.05
It's really the TV thing, which is megabucks ad revenue...plus some really bankable writing/production teams and publishing interests (it's amazing how much revenue is still being collected worldwide for things like the spice girls)
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
18:21 / 22.03.05
Fly - Can't we be friends?

A while back there was a thread here about people getting involved more in the music forum, and I was wondering then about bringing a different slant in, and how it would be taken. A few people expressed that what we seem to get into is why they don't bother...

If we pop over to dictionary.com and check out 'responsible' we see this :

1. Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.
2. Involving personal accountability or ability to act without guidance or superior authority: a responsible position within the firm.
3. Being a source or cause.

OK, dictionary.com isn't exactly authoritative, but we'll run with it. Rachel Steven's was not 'responsible' for the two tracks.

I did say I was splitting hairs. Since we seem to enjoy putting the anal in analogy, lets really push the floater out. Rachel Stevens is 'responsible' for the two tracks in the same way, just about, as an air-host/hostess is 'responsible' for the passengers on a flight. See, its kind of ok, as far as it goes, but it really is a crap description of the reality of the event, isn't it? i mean, the pilot has a huge responsibility, aided by his/her co-pilots, the vast responsibility of the air-traffic control crew, and none of them would be anywhere without the engineers and ground support team, and none would even have a job without the airlines and their personnel and so and so on.

Asking me to explain the Elvis bit - way to set up a straw man! I never mentioned Elvis, you did. I think they are, yet again, specious and inadequate / useless comparisons. If you like, then no, Elvis was not responsible for 'Hound Dog'. But Elvis and rachel Stevens are really very different artistes born of very different eras, and operating in very different manifestations / eras of a continuously evolving business.

What makes you say I am clueless?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:49 / 22.03.05
Well, I sup-pose I was interpreting your claim that Stevens was not "responsible" for those songs as another example of how preconceived ideas about certain types of artist or genres of music can lead people to refuse to give as much credit to an individual as they would if certain arbitrary signifiers were different. To out that in plainer English: I interpreted your post as belittling Rachel Stevens' role in making the records released under her name not on any rational basis, but out of idle cultural prejudice. Using the term "poppet" here is perhaps telling.

However, if you generally believe that vocalists should not be given credit for recordings they neither write nor produce, that's an unusual point of view, at odds with the shorthand most people use when talking about popular music, and more sympathetic to certain traditions of popular music than others, but still - if it's a consistently held point of view, that's all well and good.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:56 / 22.03.05
For a better take on what I perceive to be the issue here, I refer you to the following, from a seminal essay by Sasha Frere-Jones (nominally about Justin Timberlake, but I think the arguments carry across pretty easily):

Ross likes "Cry Me a River," praising its multiple layers and name-checking Duke Ellington, but the whole thing makes him uncomfortable: "In any case," he writes, "the songs on Justified aren't really Timberlake's. A dozen names appear in the credits, and it's anyone's guess how much of a song like 'Cry Me a River,' the album's best track, actually came from Timberlake's pen, if he owns one." There's probably more evidence George Bush doesn't own a pen, but Ross is making a funny. We salute that. But still, the crack is pure ideology....

Ross' attack on Timberlake's legitimacy is simply another appearance of the long-standing critical bias toward a certain kind of musician and a received take on how they make records. Take Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Sleater-Kinney, or Jack White, artists who use tools deemed "basic"—guitar, bass, drums. You can hear what each person is doing, physically, with their hands and voices. So the critic assumes a link straight from the artists to the putative listener, and praises the work using that metric. If a producer is listed, his role is brushed off as merely engineering and arranging, since producers usually don't get songwriting credit.

...

There's a real argument to be had about whether or not it matters who made a song, but let's accept for now that the number of people involved in making a pop record matters because this idea about the Individual Artist won't go away. Fine. Thing is, if you read the credits on records, the number of people involved in making big, shiny pop records is about the same as the number of people involved in making the records of high-cred bands like Radiohead or Wilco.
 
 
Brigade du jour
20:58 / 22.03.05
Sorry, I nearly laughed then because I got Wilco mixed up with Falco.
 
 
haus of fraser
07:48 / 23.03.05
I would love to hear Wilco playing rock me amadeus- start an online petition somewhere someone.. please...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:32 / 23.03.05
See, I think the article made there by Frere-Jones is fundamentally misleading. We're talking about issues of authenticity here, and with the best will in the world, it simply isn't possible to accurately compare different musical genres in this way. That's what the people like Ross are doing - attempting to force a set of signifiers of authenticity onto pop music that it can't handle. Problem is that people like Frere-Jones are condoning this misconception by arguing using the same themes. Timberlake is one of many American artists who, although they make what we might consider pop music, do not consider themselves pop artists. Timberlake himself cites his involvement in and influence on the records he makes as proof of this. So in avoiding the label and bigging up his 'authentic songwriter' credibility, he and Frere-Jones shore up the error - that you can apply signifiers of authenticity that stem from the rise of the Artist in the 1960s, to pop music.

Essentially, pure pop music isn't necessarily meant to be authentic in the same way. It's singles - single tracks, single-minded, singles-shart oriented. That doesn't mean there's no such thing as a fantastic pop album, obviously, it just means the signifiers of authenticity in pop music are so etiolated as to be non-existent. Rock n' roll has a peculiar skeleton-in-the-closet relationship with pop music where the lines blur, hence all this allegedly 'rockist' (god, still a dumb-as-fuck, nauseatingly reductive phrase) and 'anti-rockist' rubbish flying around.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:44 / 23.03.05
I dunno, what I've always liked about that article is how SFJ manages to fight a battle on several different fronts - he basically says that these issues of authenticity are irrelevent, but since people won't shut up about them, okay, let's examine the evidence and see whether any of these assumptions about 'commercial'/'chart' pop hold up.

I don't like the term 'rockist' either - I prefer 'anti-pop'. I know there's any argument that these terms are unworkable whichever one you use, but there is a certain mindset that crops up again and again, characterised by oddly specific obsessions (eg, a: focusing on things other than the music itself and then attributing that focus to the artist in question, whereas in fact it's remarkably easy to only hear the songs of pop artists and not know anything about them; or b: claiming that pop music is forced upon 'us', whereas in fact it's remarkably easy to avoid hearing Emma Bunton songs, I kinda wish I'd heard more in my time...).
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
11:59 / 23.03.05
Using the term "poppet" here is perhaps telling.

I dunno...'Poppet', meaning (good ol' dictionary.com) 'A Darling', with the added pun on the 'pop' aspect. A pop darling. It somehow feels more honest than referring to her as a 'musician'.

However, if you generally believe that vocalists should not be given credit for recordings they neither write nor produce, that's an unusual point of view, at odds with the shorthand most people use when talking about popular music, and more sympathetic to certain traditions of popular music than others, but still - if it's a consistently held point of view, that's all well and good.

Credit in what sense? Credit on the sleeve notes as the singer/artiste, of course. But a record is a huge combination of people pulling their weight to make a hit, and over-attributing 'responsibility' to the bod on stage is a journalistic conceit. Especially in the case of factory pop, where the artiste is drafted in from a number of options to suit the flavour of the moment, their willingness to contribute, and the best marketing potential. After all, most of the tracks on 'Justified' were written for Michael Jackson, who passed on them all to work with Rodney Jerkins, and probably is deeply regretting it, in between courtroom appearances. 'Toxic' was passed on by Kylie, who Cathy Dennis penned it specifically for, and snapped up by Britney, who went straight to number one with it, while Kylie's lame R&B schtick sank without a trace. Would Kylie have made 'Toxic' a hit, with the same Bloodshy production? I guess we'll never know, but I suspect the answer is a resounding 'yes'. Would Annie have made 'Some Girls' a hit? Possibly, maybe from a different marketing angle since she isn't part of the FHM drool-brigade pin up scene here in the UK, which Rachel Stevens comes ready attached to.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
12:19 / 23.03.05
'Some Girls'

AKA "Strict Machine" with less good vocals.

Just sayin'.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:20 / 23.03.05
It somehow feels more honest than referring to her as a 'musician'.

Why does it feel that way to you? What makes a singer a musician, other than singing?

Now if you are saying Rachel Stevens is "not a musician whose output I consider to be of much worth", that's another thing entirely. To claim she's not a musician at all is surely much more of a conceit than anything I've said in this thread...
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:55 / 23.03.05
'worse'?

Good call. I was going to delete that sentence before I posted, funny enough, cos I knew you'd be all over it, you stickler for consistency you.

I am, rather inconsistently, using a fairly biased definition of musician admittedly. Our old friend, the dictionary, would disagree with me completely.

It feels more honest to me because she isn't really defined in her professional role by her musical prowess, but by her star-quality...She really isn't a particularly notable singer, after all, is she? She looks great, can dance, and hold a tune given enough tries, went to Italia Conti and auditioned for a group which went on to be a huge success and assumed a multiple 'entertainer' role...the TV / band tie-in thing...I dunno. Its all a bit wanky, really isn't it? Entertainer / musician, horses for courses. I'm snobbing out, in spite of myself.

I take it back.
 
  

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