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Infernal Affairs (and The Departed) [SPOILERS for both]

 
  

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Peach Pie
14:20 / 08.03.05

Has anyone else seen INfernal Affairs? What did you think of it?

I found it breathtaking: first rate acting, drama suspense, intrigue, and very thrilling. Some people call it Hong Kong's answer to The Godfather, but it has a fire about it that I don't think the Marlon Brando film matches.
 
 
Benny the Ball
21:49 / 08.03.05
Haven't seen it yet. But I do have Old Boy on DVD to watch tomorrow.

I loved the premis of Infernal Affairs, as a concept it's fantasticly simple.
 
 
PatrickMM
23:08 / 08.03.05
I loved Infernal Affairs. It's such a great concept, it practically writes itself, and the film has some great twists. It's going to be really tough for Scorcese to top it in his remake. The acting was great all around, and the score was phenomenal.

Infernal Affairs II is just as good. It doesn't have the same really tight structure of part I, but it's more epic and touches on a lot more things. Also, it really compliments part I and makes it a better film. I have III, but haven't watched it yet. I've heard it's not as good, but we'll see.

And, Oldboy's phenomenal, enjoy it.
 
 
Bear
09:06 / 09.03.05
I've heard nothing but good things about it, it's on my list of movies to buy.

I'm actually quite tempted by this -

8 Disc Boxset

But it's out of stock at the moment.

It's another on the long list that's being remade by Hollywood right?
 
 
Spaniel
09:50 / 09.03.05
Yep. By Scorsese.

Yet again Barbelith throws the issue of personal taste in my face. I would never, in a million years, compare Infernal Affairs with The Godfather. That's not to say I dislike Infernal Affairs - far from it: it's a good thriller with a strong, well executed, high concept - I just think The Godfather is a much better movie.

What do I think lets Infernal Affairs down? Well, not much, although, Patrick, I'm interested that you really liked the music - for me, that was one of the weak points. It just didn’t translate easily into a musical language I’m familiar with. For example, the score would often feel like it didn’t entirely match what was going on on the screen – too saccharine, or too overblown, perhaps. This is a difficulty I’ve had with other Asian films, and I should add that a number of my friends have, unbidden, made similar comments.

Now, what I’m quite categorically not saying is that Asian scores are crap, or wrong, or whatever, rather that Asian audiences seem to have different expectations. I’m also not saying that Asian scores are entirely alien to western ears, that would be silly. Just that sometimes they jar a little.

I probably should watch more Anime...
 
 
PatrickMM
16:07 / 09.03.05
The score was definitely very present, but I really liked the way it blended rock and more traditional orchestral influences. There's a way of using music such that it completely overwhelms what's happening on screen (look at something like Daredevil, which constantly had a 'hit' song playing at full volume), but here the music complimented the image very well, IMO.

As for The Godfather comparison, I didn't really see any similarities between IA1, but when you get to IA2, you could probably find a lot of structural connections, and also, there's the fact that it's a really great sequel, much like GF2. I actually prefer IA to The Godfather, but I don't think it even approaches TGF in terms of scope.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
07:32 / 11.03.05
I loved Infernal Affairs. I didn't think the second was quite as good - one of the things I liked about the first was the comparisons drawn between Yan and Ming, and the implication that Ming was in Buddhist hell... IA2 was a good little action film, but clashed ever so slightly with the events of the first (I'm a continuity stickler like that). Having said that, there were some nice little references to the first (the song Mary plays for Ming on her stereo, Yan snorting coke and complaining about its quality). Haven't seen 3 yet, but I'm looking forward to it a lot.
 
 
Peach Pie
13:15 / 15.03.05


*** SPOILERS***

***


***

cloud - do you think the Buddhist reference was particularly for Ming? Had not thought about it in that way. I thought the Buddhist philosophy of suffering was represented by Wong as well as anyone - he got the object at the end of the prequel that he'd thought he desired at the beginning - but with terrible consequences.

Liked all the main characters in both films, but thought Yan was a cut above the rest in part 2. Stoic, heartbroken more than once, but always purposeful and often courageous.

What did you make of Hau?
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
07:07 / 16.03.05
*SPOILERS*, probably.
goldfish - I think the reference to buddhist hell in the first was certainly applicable to Ming - if you look at what Yan and Ming have at the start of the first film, and what Ming loses (his g/f, both his bosses and his self-worth - by that I mean that he was going to "martyr" himself to do the right thing, but this was derailed), paralleled by what Yan gains - his hero's burial, his daughter, his girlfriend. I was really only referring to the first film - your point about Wong is certainly valid, although the picture of Wong and Sam as good friends in IA2 kinda jarred with their representation as enemies in the first film, for me.
Regarding Yan's character - I preferred him in the first film; he was a more tragic, and more sympathetic character, I felt - though I must admit to being a huge fan of Tony Leung, so my opinion is slightly biased there.
As to Hau...I can't comment, as I keep thinking of the triad boss from Hard Boiled (starring Tony Leung as a police mole in the Triads!), who was in a similar situation to Hau. I'll watch IA2 again and get back to you...
 
 
Peach Pie
12:13 / 16.03.05

the picture of Wong and Sam as good friends in IA2 kinda jarred with their representation as enemies in the first film, for me.

Mir auch. I think the implication was that Wong was really, really hurt by Sam's taking actions which led to Hau's shooting, and compounded by the rest of the family's slaughter.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
13:25 / 16.03.05
Hang on - I thought Wong was more or less in favour of getting Hau killed, and Sam taking over...? I took that exchange (at the start of the film) to be at least semi-serious. And, in the first film, Wong seemed somewhat warmer to Sam than Sam did to him...
As to the killing of the rest of Hau's family, it's debatable as to whether Sam wanted them killed, or whether the Thais wanted to kill them for sport, or to indicate their ruthlessness... must watch *both* movies again, when I get a chance.
 
 
Peach Pie
12:10 / 17.03.05

the impression i got was that Wong wanted Hau killed at the beginning of the film, but his perspective had shifted by the end. he wanted to see Hau prosecuted to the full extent of the law rather than be shot. if i'm right, then the murder of Wong's second partner was probably the turning point.
 
 
PatrickMM
01:22 / 11.04.05
I watched Part III a couple of days ago and was very impressed. It wasn't as good as I or II, but it was still a great film and did a really good job of tying up loose ends left over from Part I. What they do with Ming is great, and it was good to see a little more of Tony Leung. So, if you liked the first two, definitely check out the third one.
 
 
Peach Pie
10:36 / 01.10.05
Just seen part 3.

I noticed the music in a more negative way this time, perhaps because the looser structure prevents you from getting quite so caught up in the story. I didn't understand the ghost thing until relatively late in the film,and kept wondering if it was some weird continuity anomaly.

Didn't warm to Yan so much this time round - don't find him quite as credible as a 'jokey' character. Avery sad film, I think.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
08:40 / 04.10.05
Must get #3 real soon.
Oh, and if you enjoyed Infernal Affairs, I'd definitely reccomend trying to find The Mission, one of Anthony Wong's finest moments, and a huge influence on Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
08:44 / 04.10.05
Oh, and Good Grief - Scorcese's version. I can kinda see how it might work - pretty-boy DiCaprio for Andy Lau (Leo couldn't play this role, IMHO - can't do pathos, for me, 'cos I can't stand the bugger), Damon for Tony Leung, Nicholson for Anthony Wong - though I think I'd prefer someone a little more understated in this role... having seen the original, what do y'all think?
 
 
Peach Pie
14:50 / 07.10.05
Good lord- thanks cloud.

I agree pretty much with you on the casting. I feel Leo's 'sulky' mode will be insufficient for the subtleties of the characterisation- i hope he proves me wrong.

I think maybe an unknown might have been better in the Wong role. we shall see.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
15:26 / 07.10.05
Well, Nicholson playing Wong's character might be wrong...he might play Eric Tsang's character (Sam, wasn't it? The Triad boss?), which would be...pretty ok, possibly. And Charlie Sheen would probably be Wong's character, which could also work. Who Marky Mark and Ray Winstone are playing is anybody's guess...
 
 
PatrickMM
19:20 / 29.07.06
Here's the trailer for Scorsese's The Departed. It looks like it sticks pretty closely to the original. If it really does follow exactly, most of the enjoyment from this film would probably come from watching Nicholson's performance. I'll definitely check it out, but this is a case where I'd rather see Scorsese take the material in a slightly different direction and not strictly follow the original.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
09:18 / 04.08.06
Cheers, Patrick. I must say... I do like the soundtrack. Well, Gimme Shelter and the cover of Comfortably Numb from the trailer, anyway. And the Jack Nicholson. I'm not altogether sure who Marky Mark and Ray Winston are supposed to be, though... anyone know who's playing Keung (the gangster guy who knew how to tell when someone was an undercover cop) and the other mole in the police who popped up at the end?
 
 
PatrickMM
15:54 / 08.10.06
I saw The Departed yesterday and loved it. I'd even give it the slight edge over the original because it's just full of energy, a totally enjoyable viewing experience. I would say about a third of the film is taken directly from Infernal Affairs, but the rest is Scorsese developing the concepts in his own way and expanding on stuff inherent in the original. I'm really glad he went this route because it makes the two films complimentary, sort of like the Ghost World book and the Ghost World film.

The thing that makes the film really stand out are the performances. Nicholson is a force, dominating every scene he's in with some pretty strange stuff going on. The highlight is the opera/coke scene. Mark Wahlberg and Alec Baldwin also steal every scene they're in, the film is really funny, though, like in The Sopranos, one could take issue with the constant stream of hate speech. But, I think it's an accurate depiction of how these people talks so it works.

Things certainly aren't dulled down, the violence is heavy, and even knowing the basic idea of what was going to happen, some of it was still pretty shocking. I've got issues with a lot of Scorsese's most acclaimed films, and this is actually my favorite of all his films, because it's got so much energy, everyone's working at the top of their game and it's thoroughly enjoyable to watch.
 
 
Spaniel
16:49 / 08.10.06
Gonna see it on thurs.

I want to love it.
 
 
Rev. Orr
08:42 / 11.10.06
SPOILERS INCLUDED FOR 'THE DEPARTED' BELOW:

Saw 'The Departed' last night and realised that I'm turning into Comic Store Man. Credits roll, my friend turns to me and asks me what I thought and five minutes later, when he managed to get a word in edgewise, was moved to ask if I'd enjoyed anything at all about the last two hours. I was a little startled because I had thought it was a better than average film overall and I'd had a good time. So why was everything I had to say about this film so negative?

I think the answer is that had I not seen the original first then I would have felt that this was solid Scorsese film, not one of his best, best still better than many out there. There was much to admire, but in the end he was let down by a weakly structured script and a curious belief that DiCaprio has the acting chops of a young DeNiro. There were some entertaining one-liners, Baldwin, Whalberg, Damon and Nicholson were having a ball and Ms.Schoonmaker was on fine form. On the other hand, I have seen the original and this greatly coloured my appreciation of this film. As a remake, I found it impossible to react to the Departed purely on it's own merits.

Am I being unfair to expect more from Scorsese than a straight re-make with American actors and English dialogue? The fact that entires scenes appeared to have been lifted shot for shot from the original jarred me out of the film (the lift doors closing on DiCaprio's body for example). It wasn't quite Van Sant's 'Psycho' but it felt close in places and where it did deviate from the plot - Costello is also a mole, two people know the identity of the undercover cop, e.t.c. - the changes seem only to weaken the story and leave plot holes and loose ends.

As the two leads, Damon seemed to offer a much more nuanced and complex reading than DiCaprio. Where Damon played a man pulled in two directions by his twin roles, conflicted and genuinely drawn to both lives, DiCaprio seemed to rely on facial hair and scowling as a substitute for character. Whalberg was great but just dissapeared until that what-the-fuck ending that seemed tacked on and destroyed what would have been a much more interesting ending for Damon's character. And, in contrast with Patrick, I loathed the opera scene. It seemed to have been lifted from a completely different film and came across as the result of a studio note:

"Marty, Sweetcakes. We've finally got you to do another gangster film and we're all really excited by the first cut. Love it. Just one thing - it's all a little Irish. That mob boss. We love Jack, but test audiences think he's a thug not a proper gangster. Could you have him going to the opera or eating more pasta? And maybe a giant pile of cocaine. We loved it when you did that in 'Scarface'. Thank you.

P.S. What the fuck are you thinking letting Matt live? He's a bad guy. What is this, some artsy Euro-flick? Black hats don't walk. Sort this now!"

Maybe my expectations were too high. I wanted to Scorsese to take the plot hook and spin his own world around it, make it his; not just re-film something that worked fine as it was. It was almost like a Scorsese pastiche - some first time director who'd pitched it to the studio as 'a Hong Kong action thriller as directed by Scorsese'. Either that or he's decided to go down the Coppolla route of 'one for the studio, one for me'.

And again, I'm sounding like I hated it. I didn't. It just could have been so much more. Maybe I just need a Spleenectomy.
 
 
PatrickMM
18:38 / 11.10.06
I was actually surprised by how much was altered from the original. Yes, there were a few shots and scenes that came right out of it, but the structure was radically altered, particularly in the set up, and in the development for Dicaprio's character. Infernal Affairs was great because it was so tightly structured, there was no excess at all, this film had a lot of potentially cuttable stuff, but the fleshing out of the world gave it a more epic feel.

I guess I chose to approach it from the perspective of appreciating what was new about the work and not tryiing to view it only in relation to the original. Obviously knowing what would happened colored a lot of my viewing, but I think there was enough new material in there to make it a companion piece rather than a strict retelling.
 
 
The Strobe
06:08 / 13.10.06
What Orr said. I want to write a bit more about it, but literally, when the credits rolled, I said about as loudly as I could:

"they changed the fucking ending!"

And, as Orr basically, said, made it completely irrelevant in the process. The whole point is that Matt Damon Doesn't Die. Otherwise, Leo's line in the lift - "I am killing you. Every day." is entirely pointless.

So frustrating. There's a lot to like, but it's not the masterpiece anyone thinks, and I thought the Aviator (which I think is superior anyway) that we all hailed as "Scorcese's return to form"?

To suggest Scorcese's only on "form" making gangster pics denigrates him as a director quite a bit.

Anyhow: frustrating changes. Similarly, the whole origin-myth thing seems very tired, wheras the flashback structure of the original is very fresh and keeps the adrenalin up.
 
 
Benny the Ball
07:25 / 13.10.06
yeah, it made little sense to kill him off - that was what made infernal affairs work more, it was kind of chilling that the bad guy lived.

Also, I felt less worried for Damon in this one, it felt like DiCaprio had more to lose, and was in more danger, I remember feeling really tense in IA, that they were both in danger.

Departed felt more like Face Off than Infernal Affairs.
 
 
The Strobe
09:02 / 13.10.06
that was what made infernal affairs work more, it was kind of chilling that the bad guy lived.

I wouldn't say chilling; in IA, it's made clearer IIRC that Andy Lau's character is actually - by sheer virtue of trying to pretend to be a cop - going straighter by the day, and he wants to be left to do his job, which is why he ultimately kills his boss. There's no question that Matt Damon's going straighter; if anything, he's just more paranoid about protecting himself. But once Costello's dead... he doesn't work for anyone any more.

Andy Lau has the problem of trying to be a straight cop with all the weight of his dirty cop past on him. Matt Damon's just an arsehole, and is most likely going to turn into the Alec Baldwin character as he ages.

Still a stupid change, though.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
12:50 / 13.10.06
I saw The Departed the other day...and I really hated Matt Damon in it. His accent just really really annoyed me. DiCaprio, on the other hand, I was pleasantly surprised with. And Marky Mark's Dignam was a fun character to watch. I think Nicholson overacted too much; he viewed Costello as "the embodiment of all evil" (can't remember where I read that, will put a link up if I can find it...), and I guess Scorcese wanted Jack so much, he just let him run with it, though I found it jarring. And Ray Winston's character seemed a bit pointless. And the "Irish" guys with Scottish accents just pissed me off.
 
So, basically... yeah, enjoyed the film, but not a patch on the original.
 
 
Benny the Ball
14:13 / 13.10.06
Funnily enough Matt's accent was extremely accurate (what with him being a bostonian and all). Martin Sheens was also excellent (but he plays New England Presidents as a hobby). I couldn't work out if the scottish guy was supposed to be scottish or if they just didn't get irish or not. Ray winstones was the worst accent on show though.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
14:50 / 13.10.06
I guess Matt Damon's accent did spoil my enjoyment of his performance. To me, he seemed very smug and glib throughout pretty much the entire film, and not in the slightest bit worried about his position or his morals.
 
I think the scene where his fiancée is listening to the damning CD is a good example of this; Damon's character seems just pissed off that he was found out, and thinks he can explain it away as part of the job; Andy Lau in the original, however, knows that it's just him getting deeper into a mire from which he cannot escape.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
20:44 / 15.10.06
Just seen it and my overwhelming feeling was of opportunities missed. I thought Jack Nicholson played it superbly - he needed to be unhinged and he was. Sadly, the early scene where he suggests that di Caprio's character should consider another life is never developed into genuine affection although I sensed that it was there all the way - he never wanted to believe he was the rat.

I think Matt Damon just isn't a good enough actor to carry such a complex role, but I'm sure others have examples of better work. He failed to evoke my sympathy, either as devoted to Costello, or as so driven to succeed that he would betray everyone. I felt Wahlberg was wonderful.

Spoilers??




The series of final executions let it down, because they negated the sense that had been so carefully built that people felt obligations to each other. It just happened so matter of factly that it undermined the complexity of emotion involved before. I thought it was very very good, but ultimately a little unsatisfying. Strangely, the old boys shined (Nicholson, Baldwin) and I thought the dialogue was at times so brilliantly sharp that it was all worth it, but somehow the emotional pay off wasn't there. Beautifully flawed?
 
 
Spaniel
14:34 / 16.10.06
Cloud, as Benny pointed out Matt Damon's accent was spot on because he's a bostonian.

Weird thing to complain about.
 
 
lonely as a cloud...
09:08 / 17.10.06
Boboss - I'm just saying that his accent really annoyed me . If it is accurate, and is just what Scorsese wanted from him, then well done Matt Damon, but personally, I hated it and it made me hate Damon's performance.
 
 
Boy Racer
13:39 / 17.10.06
I saw Infernal Affairs at the cinema on it's UK release. I haven't seen either of the sequels.

I saw the The Departed last night, and I have to say that whilst good in comparison to your average Hollywood thriller I didn't think it stood up well in comparison to Infernal Affairs. At all. For many of the reasons already expressed by folk above.

At least one reviewer described this as Scorsese's best film since Goodfellas, I'm left wondering what films he's been watching.

It's very well made technically, but in it's attempts to translate the story for an American audience it loses many of the qualities - in story, character, and style - that made the original film work so well.

The script is overlong and baggy.
Leo scowls and twitches instead of acting.
The loss of empathy for Damon's character.
The shrink being with both guys.
The amount of time the big boss is on screen. (Nicolson [i]was[/i] big. But good? Appropriate?)
The loss of the shock of him shooting the boss.
The fucking end.

I really wanted to like this, and if you haven't seen Infernal Affairs I think you still might, but for me it just doesn't stand up to comparison.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
10:55 / 15.01.07
finally got to see it yesterday and liked it a lot, but hate to say it's nothing much. a cool made for tv movie at most. with top actors, a top director, cursing and a lot of violence, sure, but a made for tv / direct to dvd movie.

a friend of mine said when he watched it the final shot with that animal made the whole theater laugh their arses off and killed it for him...
 
  

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