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Why do so many people NOT believe in magic?

01:42 / 26.08.01

Often scientists ask why archaic people believe in magic, why perfectly intelligent people believe in alien abductions, and so on, when they know perfectly well that it's bunk. Well, for those of you who know it isn't, why do so many people think it is?

01:52 / 26.08.01

Becasue it cant be demonstrated at the drop of a hat with constantly repeatable effects

Lazlo Woodbine [some call me Laz]

01:58 / 26.08.01

As adults we have been taught , through out our lives, what is and what is not possible within the "so called" laws of physics.The archain is one example of what is not, aparently.

[ 26-08-2001: Message edited by: Kosh ]

03:25 / 26.08.01

Hmmm, we certainly have been taught this, but...

I'm not sure that so much in physics can be demonstrated at the drop of a hat. Quite a lot of it these days requires technology the average man can neither use, nor interpret.

But, still, you have a history of scientists who have already established a reputation for knowing what's going on.

Neither does science have constatnlty repeatable effects. In fact, things can go wrong all the time during experiments. But we very often attribute it to imperfect conditions rather than an imperfect theory.

You could say that it should have sufficiently repeatable effects, but surely magic must also if it is to be useful. I mean, if, for example, a sigil increases the probability of one type of thing happening by 20%, or thereabouts, then that ought to be observable. But if its alteration of probability is too low, then it isn't useful to use it.

00:53 / 27.08.01

Okay, I've been thinking about this and considering the aim of science. Science is all about power. Getting more money, more land, more weapons. Or it's about extending life. It rarely has a spiritual aim. Magic often does. Perhaps the kind of magic we discuss here isn't very good at acquiring power, and generally fails when set against the current methods. Perhaps.

As in, a man who can bend a spoon with his mind doesn't impress me, since I can bend it quicker and easier with my hands.

But maybe it is more effective than science for spiritual aims, or for understanding truths in the universe, rather than theories.

"A truth you can't articulate doesn't help me build anything."

What do you folks think?

05:56 / 27.08.01

Magic is more about the spirit whereas science is about the physical, agreed. On some levels the two intermingle, and there are even signs of amalgamation between the two. Both have the same aims, but ask different questions - for science it is "how," for magic and theology it is "why."

Science is easier and it's results can be seen all around us. Magic is a bit more difficult, more abstract, less direct.

We're reactionaries in an age where our beliefs are dying, being replaced by new ones. Science is magic, just a different kind, a simpler kind, an accessible kind.

Why should people believe that we can make miracles happen without proof? They see miracles being made with proof all the time by scientists.

But hey, I'm just a crackpot. What do I know?

14:36 / 27.08.01

Most people don't believe in Magick because they can't see it.Thats what they'll tell you,and anyone who claims that magick exists then has the burden of proof put on them.Which I think is quite fair.Then ,when something strange happens that they can't explain,they bury their head in the sand and only raise the topic when dinner conversation about the truth about Tom and Nicole has died down.No-one wants to entertain any notions that might explain an enigma to them for the simple reason,that they cannot accept that the world is not the same as the one that they were brought up in,and to claim otherwise is a personal affront.Also,quite right.Then you have an entirely different sub-group who were introduced to a world,that could contain more than one hypothesis for every event,none of which seem to ring true,and for whom ,due to their own investigations and experiences ,-reality is far more mysterious and strange than has ever been dreamt of before.It is insulting to people of a rational disposition,that millions of aborigines,buddhists,sufis,native americans and other kinds of 'mystics',could have a better grasp of reality than the one defined in there 'coffee table world-view'.If you want to snap these people out of it,you have to throw a fireball.(in one sense or another).

18:33 / 27.08.01

I think it's all about what people are open to at this point in their journey........I find that when you contemplate this area of life more, it comes to you more and more. When you sincerely investigate it, or find yourself fascinated by it, the teacher(s) will present themselves, be they in books, experience, friends, movies, or here on Barbelith!!

23:57 / 27.08.01

...a better grasp of reality than the one defined in there 'coffee table world-view'

None of the groups you listed have a better grasp of reality than anyone else, of course. In fact, no one has a good grasp of reality aside from what they see in front of them and what is defined by their beliefs.

People running around claiming that their computers are infected with demons and they'll have to do a shamanic ritual to cleanse the CPU of the taint of evil? Yes, I have met people who do believe that.

I've also met people who had a similiar problem and took it down to the shop to be fixed. Simpler, more reliable.

We don't have a better grasp of reality. We're all just insane hate-mongerers of what we consider mundane. I have no interest in proving anything to the masses, nor do I particularly care if they believe what happens before my very third eye or not.

But hey, I'm just an idiot. Ignore me.

08:15 / 28.08.01

I don't believe in Magic/k.
I find it fascinating, and I've had 'spiritual' experiences. But I don't believe in Magic or the spirit or anything else of a similar bent.

Aliens yes, odds are incredibly good there is intelligent life out there. But intelligent life trampling corn and kidnapping rednecks?
No.

Most of the objections seem to be based in the idea that Science is a selfish, non-spiritual, power-making discipline.
I don't agree.

What could be more spiritual than seeking understanding of the universe 'Enlightenment'.
Power? Anything can be used for evil, magicians use their 'power' for selfish and/or bad things.

The universe is no less special for me knowing that stars are burning balls of gas, rather than the scattered tears of a goddess.

Science isn't shallow or disappointing, rather the reverse to my mind.

Why don't we believe in Magic?
because it cannot be observed to work.
Its not repeatable or consistent and appears to largerly exist only in the casters mind.

08:15 / 28.08.01

quote:We don't have a better grasp of reality. We're all just insane hate-mongerers of what we consider mundane. I have no interest in proving anything to the masses, nor do I particularly care if they believe what happens before my very third eye or not.

neither do I.

quote: None of the groups you listed have a better grasp of reality than anyone else, of course.

How can you be sure?You have to do your own investigations before you can say this statement is true.That is an ongoing develpement where all things might be possible.

[ 28-08-2001: Message edited by: kobol strom ]

13:46 / 28.08.01

quote:Originally posted by Brenden Simpson:

None of the groups you listed have a better grasp of reality than anyone else, of course. In fact, no one has a good grasp of reality aside from what they see in front of them and what is defined by their beliefs.

quote:Originally posted by kobol strom:

How can you be sure?You have to do your own investigations before you can say this statement is true.That is an ongoing develpement where all things might be possible.

Nobody has a better grasp of reality than anyone else because reality is a function of the individual. Any truly objective capital-R 'Reality' that might be out there cannot be directly perceived, but is filtered through each individual's beliefs, prejudices, and perceptions.

As an example, Reality is colorless - matter doesn't have any inherent color. But it does reflect and refract light in various ways - this is translated by our eyeballs into electrical signals, which are then further translated by our brains into 'color', so that we can make some kind of sense of it. But color is not Objectively Real. It's the visual equivalent of a Japanese technical manual translated into English by a Norweigan.

It's all about the quantums, baby.

(related reading: "Reality Is What You Can Get Away With" and "Quantum Psychology", both by Robert Anton Wilson)

--Riff

[ 28-08-2001: Message edited by: RiffRaff ]

[ 28-08-2001: Message edited by: RiffRaff ]

14:49 / 28.08.01

quote: It's all about the quantums, baby.
Again,I have to say,I've not made my mind up about this either,and neither have the 'scientists'.The closer they get to answers the more mystical it seems to become.Its all about taking each other at face value and looking into all areas of interest as far as your individual functional reality will allow.But its interesting talking abut it.

[ 28-08-2001: Message edited by: kobol strom ]

01

16:05 / 28.08.01

quote: Why do so many people NOT believe in magic?

Because to most people it sounds FUCKING CRAZY. Only now, after hanging out on this board for so long and giving "magic" a chance, reluctantly delving into it, and most of all , experiencing it firsthand will I freely admit that there's something to it.

But I hate the term. It's loaded with so much cheesy connotation that most people are instantly turned off (my self included) by its very utterance. Go to any circle of "normal people" for lack of a better phrase and ask them what comes to mind when you use the term "magic". The lads at work will probably conjure up such mental images as

a. a creepy Euro-mulleted David Copperfieldesque character (or even worse David Copperfield himself) slinking around a stage with two assistants who look like they're from "The Price is Right" during the '80's or even worse some fourth rate Las Vegas Dungeon. Oh yeah, don't forget to add incredibly bad pseudo-"mysterious" synth music and white gloves. White gloves are essential. There'll also probably be a fucking mime walking around somewhere still trying to find his way out that damned invisible prison. For fuck's sakes.

b. A circle of teenagers arguing in someone's parent's basement about who's Elf with 557 hit points and class level 37th realm spells is tougher than the advancing army of undead golems, and should therefore rightly be granted one more spell advancing him to 37th+ level.
"Hey remember the campaign of '99 when we overthrew the castle of Shadow King and imposed our own fifedom on all of the puny miserable Orcs?"
"Yeah...heh heh, they sure were puny and miserable heh heh..."
Please.

c. Some '70's mountain pixie woman who plays an acoustic guitar and loves wakin' up in the mornin' and goin' horseback ridin'. And campin'.
"Did you see the mist settle over Eagle Ridge this mornin'?... It was magic..."
{pluck, pluck, strum, strum}
Ugh.

Then ask everyone what comes to mind when you throw a "k" on the end.

[ 28-08-2001: Message edited by: zerone ]

09:07 / 29.08.01

zerone, have you looked at the "proof" thread, yet? I'd be interested to hear any stories you have that led you to believe there's something in it.

09:18 / 29.08.01

A lot of people don't believe in magick because it's easier not to believe in it. They put their trust into scientists who practice "science". Actually, a lot of scientists don't practice science (i.e. the scientific method. basically experiment and figure things out.) they practice interpretation. Scientists take a result of an experiment and interpret it. conciouslly, or unconciosly they are interpreting the data to fit their own beliefs. This doesn't mean that what scientists say is false just that they're fallible, but most people don't believe that they are.

So, why don't most people believe in magick? Well, when was the last time anybody started doing real research on magick? I mean, starting from nothing? For example, if i move my hand like this does it change anything in the near vicinity and does it change anything far away? If I say this word while jumping up and down then what will happen? If I think this thought while a ball drops from the table what will it do? And what factors come into play? Nobody that i know of has been doing this. It seems too hard to do but, hell, it might be fun.

09:30 / 29.08.01

...I guess it depends on how you point the term "magic" to phenomena...I still see the magic in how my computer runs and how I can augment the healing process through means such as Reiki. Most people are closed-minded to this sort of thing. It generally requires an openess to explore and keeping things open ended to see it.

Overall, I can say that I haven't seen a spell worked out in front of me to produce an effect, but I have seen concentration warp and break things and the use of technique (martial arts) to disable an opponent by simply touching them or directing your intent. Also seen probability fluctuate due to the shear force of will.

But I think this is a language problem overall...think about how not too long ago, playing cards or throwing a ten-sided die in a catholic school was a big no-no. Games of chance = pathways to the devil...blah, blah, blah...people still agree with this since their personal experience doesn't relate to anything else. Hey, if the blinders are up, it's easy to believe or not believe in anything...

09:30 / 29.08.01

Well, when was the last time anybody started doing real research on magick?– Lionheart

Issac Bonewits' Real Magic came out years ago – the printing I have dates from 1989 – but one of the main thrusts of the book was to reconcile Magic and Science. There's a lot of fascinating shit mentioned, some of it quite prescient (the book was originaly published in 1971).

Here's a (hopefully) pertinent quote:

" 'Magic' is an art and a science for dealing with particular types of knowledge, the manipulation of which will produce results that will astound and amaze the uninformed. This sounds a great deal like quantum mechanics, cybernetics and astrophysics, as well as even more 'occult (hidden)' sciences. Where is the difference then between 'magic' and 'science'?

The science and art of magic deals with a body of knowledge that, for one reason or another, has not yet been fully investigated or confirmed by the other arts and sciences."

[ 29-08-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]

09:30 / 29.08.01

I highly recommend Real Magic.

I've heard lots of people critize Bonewitts for this or that reason but I really liked Real Magic and found that even when I disagreed with him, his processes of coming to his conclusions helped me form my own.

That in and of itself puts him a notch or two above most 'magi' writing today in my opinion.

09:30 / 29.08.01

It might be as simple as this: What we call Magick is a view of the spiritual side of things, of the metaphysical, that's not condoned by the bulk of society. If you lived in a small town where damn near everyone is a Christian, and you're a Hindu, some people will accept that you have a different worldview. Other people will decide you're nuts. None of them will believe what you believe.

Christians believe in a guy who walked on water and came back from the dead. Is that any more or less absurd than the Magickian who believes that s/he has a servitor guarding the house when s/he goes on vacation? A lot of us here just have a belief system that's not widely accepted because it's never been sanctioned by those in power and gotten the seal of approval of the mainstream. That's all.

By the way, don't interpret my remarks as a criticism of Christians, it's just that I used to be one, therefore it was easy to fish out an example from my past belief system.

No fishing puns intended.

Ok, maybe a little bit intended.

z3r0

17:20 / 29.08.01

because they have never seen it working... LIKE ME!

02:04 / 30.08.01

Ha! You've seen it working..you just didn't know it.

z3r0

17:56 / 30.08.01

I just KNEW someone would come up with this one!!