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"maybe there's a reason aliens only show up in front of stoners and hillbillies"

 
 
dj kali_ma
21:18 / 15.02.05
Hi, it's aphonia, also known as autodidactic on LiveJournal. I was more of a presence here a few years ago; I don't know if any of you would remember me.

Anyway, that's not important. What is, is that, like the bulge of Mr. Morrison's speedoes into the eye of the camera, a Grant Morrison conversation has erupted in my LiveJournal.

Basically, how it all started was with me coming across an older (September 2004) issue of ARTHUR which had a great interview with Grant in it. (I know that some of you talked about it in this thread.) I came across it at Big Brain Comics in Minneapolis, took samples from each issue I could find (ones with Jello Biafra, the Yippies, Sun Ra, etc.) and brought them back to my college (MCTC) for cataloging in the school's zine library.

Came across a quote that struck me, and posted it in my LiveJournal, upon which one of the more fascinating conversations that's ever come up in my journal just sort of spontaneously erupted.

The quote was this:

"So Chaos Magic was a kind of postmodernism for me, it taught me to look at what was actually going on, and to see it shorn of its symbolic content, and then to apply new metaphors of my own. So rather than deal with an Enochian spirit that Crowley had conjured, I would go directly to my imaginary friend from when I was age six and ask him to help, because Foxy has so immense potency for me, so much more power in my imagination and so much more strength as an idea than does. Chaos Magic is a kind of stripping away, takng magic back to the shamanic core of personal experience.

"So I became a kind of pop shaman around town: I used to find people's lost guitars and heal pets and basically do clever man stuff, but it was almost arising from circumstances. I'd be in a pub and some girl would say, 'I've just broken up with my boyfriend, will you read my Tarot cards.' And I had no idea how you read Tarot cards, I would just say 'Yes,' and then read them and it would work. The metaphors for all that were actually just getting in the way of what we were doing, which was a kind of communication and participation with the workings of the universe."


Taken from Interview with Grant Morrison
Arthur, September 2004

***

So, now that I bring it all here, I'm a little afraid of it sounding like I'm just trying to whore out my LJ, but that's where my netpresence has been for the longest time, and I'm sorry that it took this to make me check out Barbelith again, but it's definitely improved since the last time I haunted this place.

If this doesn't come off as too much of a TLR, I'd love to hear what you thought of some of the ideas that queen_skarre came up with, especially in regard to Grant's open acknowledgement of drug use.

Thanks, and hello again,
aphonia, a.k.a. autodidactic

p.s. What happened to the Barbelith Wiki on posting etiquette? It's all ads...
 
 
Chiropteran
12:49 / 16.02.05
I don't have the link handy (it's in the Comics forum, somewhere...), but I read an interview with Morrison where he said that - despite common assumptions about him, which he has admittedly done little to contradict, or even encouraged - he has actually done very little in the way of "psychedelic exploration," and then usually only under controlled conditions for a short period of time.

Of course, this could have been a much older interview - he may well have changed his tune since then.

Speaking generally, I don't think that drug use necessarily invalidates the user's experiences, but I think it can have an effect on how serious they are taken by some people. It is also an important, though not uncomplicated, factor to consider when evaluating an apparent supernatural experience. While the "maybe the aliens know" argument is actually kind of interesting, and there are plausible reasons why extradimensional or spiritual encounters might be more likely when intoxicated or otherwise compromised, in a match between "cold sober, saw aliens" and "tripping his balls off, saw aliens," I'd have to give more cred points to the witness who wasn't also seeing purple snakes in the toilet (all else being equal).

[reading back over this, I realized: I am damn wordy! Concision lessons, anyone?]

~L
 
 
diz
09:23 / 18.02.05
(i think this belongs in the Temple, not the Head Shop... mods? anyone agree?)

i seem to remember GM saying that he hadn't done a lot of drugs until well after a lot of people assumed, but i believe he's said that by now he's done a lot more.

in general, i think that many previous generations of drug users have tended to conflate enlightenment from drug experiences with the drug experiences themselves, fixating on the state itself instead of the insights that may or may not be gained from the experiences. however, i think most experienced psychonauts of this generation are better about that.

that said, i'm generally amused/annoyed by attitudes like queen_skarre's. i think that her attitude is typical of a lot of very dull naturalistic neopagans who are bound up in this very reactionary paradigm with strict divisions between natural and artificial, and a sort of Puritanical skepticism towards anything which smacks of being possibly fun and/or easier than a more traditional path. in general, i'm finding myself more and more convinced that mainstream neopagan/Wiccans are among the most conservative groups in the fringe/magic(k)al community.
 
 
---
11:48 / 18.02.05
Illegal drugs are both socially and legally unacceptable on a wide scale, but also not the hallmark of true intellectualism.

I don't think Grant really cares about true intellectualism, he's trying to open peoples minds. Yeah he's taken drugs, but I think one of his messages is that our perceptions are narrow and confined to what we are taught/told to believe and that Magick, even when used with drugs, can help to open up those perceptions again to bring about a more integrated person.

An individual can be as openminded as he or she wants about the use of illicit chemicals, and use them in as educated and careful a manner as possible, but the social and legal stigma of them still exists, and one advertises their use of such things only at his or her own risk.

Again, why should this matter? Just because these social and legal stigmas exist, it shouldn't detract from how valid his message/advice is. A lot of people are trying to get rid of these stigmas and it isn't going to be done by hiding in a darkened corner playing it safe, just so a bunch of close-minded people ridden with fear of drugs and of change can continue to push us further towards extinction.

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that these people happy to stigmatise others for taking some drugs are just afraid of what those drugs can often do : prove how connected we all really are. I'm sure that a major factor in all of this is that when it comes down to it, they fear the connection.

Yeah, so some guy took five acids and saw this big UFO man! Ok, maybe he was hallucinating, but even if he was, what I want to know is : Why did he hallucinate UFO's? What does this mean? What is this trying to tell us? And so on. I'm pretty sure it's more than the simple fact that a guy took some acid. That's only one side of it.

Even if many people are hallucinating UFO's and Aliens, there's a reason why this is happening. There's a reason why these people are seeing these things, why they are being shown them, and it's an important thing, it's something that should be looked into, not shunned because of stigma.

Grant has tried to show us, with courage that very few people have, that you can stand up and do your own thing. You don't have to worry about what these people think, and you shouldn't let your life be dictated by their limited views. You can be yourself.
 
 
Olulabelle
11:49 / 18.02.05
Aphonia, that's a excellent thread, I've just read it through.

I I think that what of Queen_Skarre is saying is entirely correct, for example:

Further, when one is already discussing a topic generally relegated to that of crackpottery, such as magic or alien intelligence, one is already toeing that fine line of being called a loon no matter how well spoken one happens to be. Why anyone wanting to be taken seriously would announce loudly to the audience in a lecture hall, "I have a head full of acid and mdma, I smoke hash daily" and then go on to lecture about how aliens are real and anyone can do magic is beyond me.

The majority of people in our society see drugs as recreational and not as spiritual tools, so if you couple the fact that you take them with a liking for magic and alien intelligence you will indeed to many people make yourself sound completely bonkers.

Having said that, society is progressively becoming more open to the use of drugs for spiritual reasons and enlightenment. Last night I watched a programme called Celebrity Detox, where a bunch of celebrities went off into the Amazon jungle and chewed Coca leaves and drunk Ayahuasca. I'm unclear on whether I think celebrities on telly undertaking drug induced Shamanic jouney's is a good thing (in that it is helping people who only see drugs as bad society-killing weapons to view them more objectively) or a bad thing because, well I'm not sure why since the world would be a very different place if everyone had taken it.

Amusingly, actress Mina Anwar said at the end of the show It is possible to be a spiritual and enlightened person without wearing purple and going to Stonehenge.

I do think that if altered states of consciousness are a vital part of your magic then it becomes almost impossible to undertake any sort of sensible conversation about the attaining those states of consiousness without making reference to the drugs you may be doing to help you get there.



And yes I also think that this should be moved to the Temple.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:28 / 18.02.05
Yeah, this should probably be moved to the Temple.

I'd agree that it doesnt do a person very many favours to announce that they regularly take shitloads of drugs, if they expect to then be taken seriously when talking about magic and bizarre entity contact experiences...

Last night I watched a programme called Celebrity Detox, where a bunch of celebrities went off into the Amazon jungle and chewed Coca leaves and drunk Ayahuasca.

What the fuck?!? Get me out of consensual reality, I'm a Celebrity? This week James Nesbitt and Eddy the Eagle Edwards share a single profound moment where space seems to fold inward upon itself and they instinctively understand that all consciousness is a single musical note reverberating through a cold universe.

It is possible to be a spiritual and enlightened person without wearing purple and going to Stonehenge.

Indeed, although I'd probably argue that it's impossible to be a spiritual and enlightened person without having a sharp three button suit and going to northern soul clubs.
 
 
Olulabelle
12:55 / 18.02.05
This week James Nesbitt and Eddy the Eagle Edwards share a single profound moment where space seems to fold inward upon itself and they instinctively understand that all consciousness is a single musical note reverberating through a cold universe.

Gypsy, you repeatedly put things quite spectacularly.

That is indeed my point about not knowing if its a good thing or not. It makes me feel uncomfy but I don't know why and I worry slightly that it might become 'hip' to go off and be 'spiritually enlightened'. Not that it wouldn't be a good thing for eveyone to actually be spiritually enlightened. Oh. You see my confusion.

Maybe we should start a thread on whether the world would change if everyone became interested in the things we are, or whether spirituality and magic would just end up going the way of Burberry, i.e. a lot of people not doing it very well.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:58 / 18.02.05
OK... my problems with that statement, I think, are probably:

1)It makes me feel uncomfy but I don't know why and I worry slightly that it might become 'hip' to go off and be 'spiritually enlightened'.

Has this not already happened? I couldn't move at college for people who had gone to India in their gap year and returned laden with enlightenment. Well, until I killed them all and put them in my fridge. Then I couldn't get my beer for people who etc.

2) "Like Burberry". You mean that chavs might start thinking about spirituality?
 
 
Olulabelle
14:01 / 18.02.05
That's so not what I meant! I meant that Burberry is so poular it has started being faked and made badly!
 
 
rising and revolving
14:43 / 18.02.05
I'd agree that it doesnt do a person very many favours to announce that they regularly take shitloads of drugs, if they expect to then be taken seriously when talking about magic and bizarre entity contact experiences...

I don't think Grants goal has ever been to be 'taken seriously' in that fashion, however. I think he likes being an icon of the trendy drug kids, and his announcements play into that.

His image is clearly enhanced, not tarnished, by his open drug use. Simply because his image is built to appeal to people who use drugs - he's not trying to pimp magic to the cold masses who will disregard him as a junkie - that's not his market and he knows it.

Besides, he doesn't care if the straights don't like 'im, so long as the cool kids do.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
14:49 / 18.02.05
Well speaking as someone who went to India in their Gap year, and took the acid, and went to the temples ( the two things often in conjunction - I was on a quest ) and sat around on a beach in Goa for about six weeks wearing a selection of prayer beads, spiritual symbols and Indian dancing tousers purchased in the local flea market for about 70p while under the influence, I didn't, sadly, see any UFOs. Nor did I come back particularly enlightened. I mean I thought I was for about ten minutes, but being strip-searched in Heathrow airport soon put paid to that notion - No true spiritual master was going to end up in the backroom just hoping to the gods that they don't get *the glove,* I was forced to conclude.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:04 / 18.02.05
Maybe we should start a thread on whether the world would change if everyone because interested in the things we are, or whether spirituality and magic would just end up going the way of Burberry, i.e. a lot of people not doing it very well.

Burberry occultism? Chava Magick? Chavospheres? Chavaotes? "Condensed Chava" and "Prime Chava" by Phil Hine? You might be onto something with this y'know.

Actually, I think in a lot of ways, the process you describe is exactly what is happening at the moment but on a smaller scale. It gets touched on a bit in the thread on Gnosis that... err... "Lucky Liquid No.1!" started yesterday. The creation of a post-chaos "pop magic" that reduces a few basic procedures to a functioning "technology" that everyone can utilise in their day-to-day life. On the one hand, it's a potentially empowering thing to give people, but at the same time, this sort of reduction sometimes touts a series of simple magical formulas that are often more marketable than they are especially accurate... and sometimes, to my mind, seem to actually drain magic of much of its beauty and mystery in the process...

I think there does seem to be a large contingent of contemporary practitioners for whom magic is a kind of plug and play activity. Something that you dip into to do a sigil here or maybe a tarot reading there, every couple of months or so. Which is absolutely fine, but it's a markedly different experience to the life of someone who lives it full-on 24/7. But to be honest, I wouldnt really wish the 24/7 thing on anyone. Not everyone can or should function and relate to their magic like this, no more than everyone can or should be a surgeon or plumber. I think there is a difference between levels of involvement with magic, which you're always going to have.

Maybe the thing to loosely work towards is not the unlikely scenario of everyone on the planet suddenly getting into practical magic, but more about everyone on the planet feeling that they have permission to have some form of spiritual life for themselves. There seems to be a lot of low level fear among people of being cast into some kind of distasteful purple gown wearing, stonehenge visiting, crystal touting, gullible hippy caricature – if you even express an interest in any of the broad areas that get lumped together as "occultism" or "magic". For instance, a lot of people visit tarot readers, but more often than not treat it as a kind of half-joke... as if they don't really believe in it, but still have their cards read fairly regularly nonetheless. I think this is quite a sad thing in many ways, because I do believe some form of "spiritual life" is a healthy thing and shouldnt be stigmatised in the way that it is. There does seem to be a hunger there for something, within the general population, and I don't think that hunger is necessarily being that well-sated by the occult community.

I think a lot of the stuff I'm always going on about with relating the practice of magic to community and the world around us is closely related to this. I try to make my magic available to people as a service, whether it's doing work for people, providing divinations, or even holding parties for the Spirits a few times a year, where I invite people along to make offerings to the Gods and commune with the Spirits through eating, drinking, music, dancing, etc – magicians and open minded non-magicians alike are always welcome. At one level, I see it as a process of normalising the idea of magic into other people's lives. Almost making it easier for people to have... I suppose... "magical experiences" and benefit from the various things that magic can provide, without them actually having to become magicians themselves to do so. Why should they? It's as much a specialised body of knowledge and skill set as something like plumbing, or IT support, or family counselling.

Interestingly, and a bit weirdly, in various friendships that I have with people who are in no sense spiritually or magically inclined, it sometimes feels as if my inclusion in their social circle (and the occasional innebriated conversations about such areas) acts as a kind of stand-in for a sense of "magic" or "spirituality" that they're not quite happy or comfortable about exploring themselves. As if going for a beer with someone "who does all of that weird stuff" somehow brings "magic" into the margins of their own life by osmosis, but in a safe way. It's very odd.
 
 
rising and revolving
17:52 / 18.02.05
One of things I find weird about this casting of occultism to the borders of the acceptable is that lots of eastern mysticism is perfectly acceptable these days. You can be into Yoga without a problem, but Tarot is a bit weird. You can go to a chakra breathing workshop on the weekend, but not a Samhain celebration.

I do think that the whole "plug and play" stuff leads to deeper insight if and where appropriate. It seems a truism that regardless of the reasons you come to magic, you end up being shown what you need, after a sense.

For some, that means embracing a 24/7 magical lifestyle. For others, not - that's always been the way since the dawn of time. ALthough there were those Jews in Spain with their spirtual colony (I can look this up later - don't have my references in front of me) - and many other colonies/groups dedicated to spirtual pursuits.
 
 
Seth
11:31 / 19.02.05
I’m in agreement with what Gypsy is saying: I’m increasingly becoming convinced that the plug and play occultism is totally valid alongside the few who want to specialise, and in a lot of ways I see it as very similar to those who seem to fairly unquestioningly join a religion. There’s a sense that these concepts and practises meet a need that people perceive themselves to have, and that not everyone has the time, energy or sanity to explore for themselves.

I think that’s probably the main reason why organised religion exists. I also think that the main problem that people have with organised religion comes from the word “organised” rather than the word “religion” (the etymology of is simply “re-linking” if I remember correctly, stop me if I’m wrong, stop me if I’m wrong), which is the same whether it’s an organised government, corporation or law system: the devaluing of the individual’s experience in favour of the consensus. I’m of the opinion that you’re an extremely naïve and hopeless idealist if you are hoping for a world without religion any time soon (look at a world map separated into religious demographics), and that by drawing a stance against it you’re robbing yourself of the chance to make dialogue and help to see things change.

So I think it’s a hell of a lot more worthwhile trying to change and influence religion (or which there are many progressive precedents) that trying to suppress it, attack it or get rid of it (of which there aren’t). And of course, you can only do that by emphasising that nothing is true, and elevating the importance of the individual’s experience, which necessitates selling the idea of uncertainty as an attractive prospect: the open curiosity and willingness to be wrong that characterises self-growth rather than rigid dogma.

I think that’s primarily why religion hasn’t been able to progress a vast amount into that area: it’s incredibly hard to sell something to that values not-knowing as an attractive concept, because the ego wants to appear to know everything in order to act as a defense (and I’m of the opinion that organisations have an ego as much as individuals do).

The more I think about the state of not-knowing, the more I think it’s one of the fundamental underlying principles of everything. Of course, I’m not 100% sure…
 
 
-
22:30 / 19.02.05
i think the drugs, magic, religion, comics, whatever, are all just systems. you can pick a system and make it work, just like you pick up the new diet book and make it work. means to an end. the quote from Grant at the top of the page is showing how he adopted a system without any specific knowledge, and made it work. from the interview at the end of the disinfo guide to the invisibles, the thing that stuck with me the most is when he described magic as basic "imagination technology". i think that's the core of it. belief in gods, practice in religion, induced altered states.

nothing is true, everything is permitted, chaos magic and such, is recognizing these various systems as different tools. it's the individual's choice as to adopt, modify, and choose which and when to use. it's about taking the best aspects of each, personalizing it, and believing it, for no reason other than it just makes sense. it just feels right.

my experience in...um, life...is one that can't be pinpointed to a specific doctrine. i can believe in guardian angels and UFOs and sigils and pink elephants all at the same time if i want. because it all boils down to the same thing. the parallels between religions and altered states through the cultural/belief lens. so by studying different systems i can find different ways to identify and interpret things as they happen. this can give me an idea of how to act in the moment while in the back of my mind in know it's all the same thing.

so the deal about advocating drug use or the less acceptable things is more about opening doors to other explanations where rigid dogma isn't satifactory. i guess even christianity went though that when it wasn't the hip thing to the romans. but with technology today, people have access to so many systems it is natural to experiment. well i don't really have a conclusion...

but the thing about the unknown, it's difficult for many people to not have a firm belief system to identify and slap a bumper sticker on their car. the idea of flexiblity, that all systems are right and/or wrong, is unsettling. how do you convince the self-righteous fanatics that kill eachother over beliefs? and how do you have a society where all beliefs are equal, without backstabbers or church burners or cannibals? guess they really did pull one over on us by giving different physical appearances, gods, and languages.
 
 
FinderWolf
10:33 / 21.02.05
speaking of drug taking people, Hunter S. Thompson just killed himself. Sad. I'd recently read an interview with him given last year on aint it cool news and he seemed ok, but of course what can an interview tell you.

RIP, Hunter.
 
 
LVX23
05:07 / 22.02.05
Just read through this fine thread. here are a few thoughts for some of the points raised (briefly)...

1) I got into magick because of psychedelics. I attribute much of my core personality to having those experiences. I don't advocate them for everybody but my experiences have been profoundly meaningful and illuminating.

2) Re: Seeing UFO's on "drugs": Synchroliscious! I just wrote this over at Key23 last night.

3) Using the term "drugs" is misleading and erroneous. Be specific. There are drug stores and drug wars, to quote somebody I don't quite recall (short-term memory loss?). Are you talking about psychedelics, amphetamine derivatives, narcotics, aspirin, DM, coffee, alcohol...?

-, great post! Summarizes many of my own feelings.

Finderwolf, yeah... fucking bummer. I'm feeling his passing more than any of the other great minds we've lost in the past 15 years or so. He was a true radical, a true individual. And in that we needed him to exist just to show us it was possible, just to remind us.

From FafBlog:
Don’t believe their filthy lies. Giblets saw the Good Doctor with his own two eyes just a few hours ago, heading north in the White Whale. He said he was headed up to heaven to shoot God. “The great bastard’s in season and it’s long overdue,” the Godfather of Gonzo said as he dusted off his elephant gun. “I have full reason to believe they will award me both the head and the tail. Expect me back by the apocalypse.”
 
  
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