BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Ancestor worship

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:25 / 15.02.05
I'm planning to write a peice on ancestor worship this year, which will mostly deal with my own experiences of bringing this practice into my magical life, my theories about it, how I've found it valuable, and why I think it deserves greater attention by practising magicians. But I've ran into a few sticking points in this general area and I'm trying to get a better understanding of ancestor worship in a historical context.

It interests me how ancestor worship is a huge aspect, if not the foundation, of many magico-religious traditions throughout the world. It's central to many African and African Diaspora religions, from the Egungun societies of Yoruba through to Haitian Vodou, Santeria, Candomble and their sister religions. It's a big part of Shinto in Japan; there's evidence that the I Ching may have originally been used for ancestor consultation; and echos of it can be seen within certain branches of Indian Tantra. Worship of the ancestors is greatly emphasised within many indigenous "shamanic" cultures, and it's fair to say that our westernised construct of the traditional shaman – along with other notions such as "journeying" and "serving community" – generally includes a component of ancestor reverence.

However, it's conspicuously absent from contemporary western magical practice, and I wonder why that is? I'd initially thought that the reason for this had something to do with the Golden Dawn. To some extent, you could argue that the way we think about magic – what it includes, and what it does not include – is something we've inherited from the Victorian occult revival. Therefore, because ancestor worship was not present in the source material of the Golden Dawn, it didnt make its way into what came afterwards, be it Thelema, wicca, chaos magic or whatever.

However, if you look carefully, you can see shadows and traces of it in other things that were going on during that broad period, such as the popularity of the Spiritualist movement and even in Austin Osman Spare's theories of atavistic resurgence. But it somehow hasnt really made it into contemporary magical practice, it seems to have been diluted out of the mix at some point along the way. Spiritualism is often scorned as either the province of mad old ladies holding seances before afternoon tea, or else the domain of predatory TV psychics earning airtime and dollars by cold reading their audience's bereavement. Similarly, Spare's ideas around atavistic resurgence are probably the least discussed or experimented with, compared to other areas of his work such as sigils, automatic drawing or the death posture. So what's going on? Why has it been edged out of serious magical practice?

I've personally found ancestor work a hugely rewarding and transformative process on many levels, it creates a sense of strength and support that feeds into all other aspects of my magical life, provides a firm foundation and grounding for my other activities, is very useful in helping to resolve family relationship issues, has helped me come to terms with bereavement, and given me practical help and advice in inumerable difficult situations. So why has it been largely excluded from the culture of contemporary western magic?

It crossed my mind that the answer might be really simple: it was never there in the first place. Maybe it hasn't made it's way into western magical practice because there was never really a tradition of ancestor worship in Europe for it to inherit? Is there actually any evidence of widespread ancestor worship in pre-Christian Europe?

I find that a bit odd in itself, if that's really the case, as it seems so prevalent and integral to the magical worldview of so many diverse cultures around the world. Why would it not be present in Europe? I was wondering if the Christianisation of Europe had gradually eradicated a culture of ancestor worship that once existed; and maybe ancestor reverence only remains integral to African and Asian magico-religious practice because evangelical monotheism reached the people of those areas comparatively recently? Or if ancestor worship was just never really present in this part of the world at all? In short, did my ancestors worship my ancestors?

Certainly, the urge to pay reverence and respect to the departed is something that we retain in our culture in a really big way. If it's been excluded from overt magical and religious practice it certainly hasnt been eradicated from our behaviour. The same mechanisms of unconscious ritual are present in places as diverse as my Dad setting out a glass of whisky "for absent freinds" on the bar of his working men's club every Xmas, to hip hop stars pouring out a little liquor for their dead homies. I think the popularity of geneology and tracing your family tree is also quite closely connected to ancestor worship, as it emerges out of the desire to know where you came from in order to better understand what you are. And you can arguably see echoes of ancestor worship in the actions of anyone who visits a deceased relative's grave on a special day each year, or wears a lucky peice of jewelry that was handed down to them, or passes on an old family recipe. All of which, at some level, are affirmations of the continuity of existence that you're the current living breathing end product of, and could therefore be considered ancestor worship.

Ultimately, whether or not a magical practice works for you, and you derive tangible benefit from it, is what counts – regardless of whether there is a historical precedent for it within your culture/s of origin or not. I'd say even the most rabid critic would have a tough time trying to level accusations of cultural appropriation at someone for worshipping their own ancestors. But I do think it's a pertinant thing to consider, and I'd like to know whether any of my own ancestors were at any point likely to practice something recognisable as ancestor worship, or if it is – like many other areas of contemporary magic – a modern construct derived and adapted from another culture.

Thoughts?
 
 
Sekhmet
12:49 / 15.02.05
Perhaps the relevance and appeal of ancestor worship has less power in societies where families are less close-knit? The modern Western world hasn't been kind to family ties, and I should think it makes it more difficult to venerate one's ancestors without having much idea who they are, or feeling a connection to them.

I don't even know my maternal grandfather's given name; the connection farther back is even more tenuous. I know more about my husband's family than my own, which is replete with divorces, out-of-wedlock births and untimely deaths.

How, then, to connect with largely anonymous, unknown ancestors?
 
 
rising and revolving
13:35 / 15.02.05
Good timing on the thread, as I've been thinking about this recently. I think there certainly *was* a Western form of ancestor worship, and it's undoubtedly faded. However, if you check out Genesis, it's pretty clear that one of it's major functions was that of praising the ancestral line. That's where all the begats come in, basically - it's a huge chain stretching back to Adam with little footnotes to cover those who especially excelled.

I'd argue that a large portion of European society was centered around the concept of clan and family right through the middle ages - but I also agree that it's gone right out these days. Why? I'm not sure, really - there's the whole monotheism angle - jealous god, so on so forth. That doesn't seem to tell the whole story, however.

Certainly I find it *surprising* that there's not a lot more ancestor worship in most peoples magical practice. For me, it's something that's very much come forward as a result of the practice - while not necessarily a road I was intentionally heading down, it's something I've been drawn to.

This may relate to the fact that I'm a child of a Jew (with a now passed Grandfather who was a Kabbalist) and a Catholic, and I mostly work in the GD system, mind you. My magical practice is intimately linked to my cultural and ancestral heritage.
 
 
LykeX
13:36 / 15.02.05
I think the popularity of geneology and tracing your family tree is also quite closely connected to ancestor worship, as it emerges out of the desire to know where you came from in order to better understand what you are.

This was the first thing that popped into my head as I was reading this, and it's probably related to what Sekhmet says. We can't very well revere someone we don't know.

Personally, I know almost nothing about my family further back than two generations. I've before thought about the idea of ancestor worship, but every time I come back to the fact that I'm not entirely sure who they are or whether they are even decent people.
For example, I have a distant cousin who blew himself up at the dinner table with a homemade bomb. Not exactly a great role-model.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:55 / 15.02.05
I've been reflecting on ancestor worship for the past several years, mostly as a result of learning more about it and its importance here on Barbelith.

It seems to be that the Catholic/Christian tradition has some hint of this, as it often refers to our relatives who have passed on and are watching over us, being our spiritual guides, guardian angels, etc., so there is some bit of this in Catholic religion/mysticism.

If we are the sum total of all the karmic, magickal and spiritual development and growth of all our ancestors who all led to us being alive and being the people we are here, now, with the families we have, being born into the part of the world and into the circumstances we were born into, that seems to me to be incredibly important, spiritually, magickally and karmically.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:06 / 15.02.05
cat yronwode has written a bit about ancestor reverence across different cultures (I might be back later with links), in connection with hoodoo. In her folkloric work she has made a rough distinction between "friendly-dead" cultures and "scary-dead" cultures (I'm totally paraphrasing), which manifest themselves through attitudes towards death and dying, certain kinds of illness, funereal practices, ghost stories, and the presence of traditions of ancestor reverence or (by contrast) necromancy.

Africa and large parts of Asia fall under the "friendly-dead" umbrella, in that the dead (or, in some cases, certain dead) can be called on for aid by their surviving loved ones and descendents.

Europe and many indigenous American cultures fear the dead - they have many stories about vengeful spirits who haunt the living. Instead of rituals to feed and honor deceased ancestors, there are rituals to cleanse areas where people have died, and to protect survivors from being dragged along by the jealous dead.

For illustration, the common African-American practice of (ritually) collecting graveyard dirt from the gravesite of a loved-one for protection makes a lot of European-Americans really squeamish. "Reaffirming a spiritual bond with a relative" versus "morbid and unsavory superstition." (A lot of European-American occult writers go so far as to say that "graveyard dirt" in African-based spells is "really" just "code" for mullein leaf.)

Of course, these generalizations are only descriptive, without suggesting why, but the "scary-dead" orientation does seem to be rooted pretty deep in European culture (speaking overbroadly - I'm sure there are notable exceptions).

~L
 
 
Chiropteran
14:29 / 15.02.05
LykeX: I know what you mean about having dubious branches on the family tree. We all have people in our family's past that we might not even like or respect, much less want to worship. The use of the word "worship," not incidentally, has been largely replaced in anthropological jargon by "ancestor reverence," which is generally more accurate - the Gods are worshipped, and the ancestors are honored, like living elders. The difference is very important, especially when considering unpleasant or hurtful family members.

The Vodou approach (as far as I was taught) offers a particularly clear example of the distinction: our ancestors love us and look after us, but they are also expected to work for us, in exchange for which we feed them. It is very much a two-way exchange of services, rather than one-way worship.

So, what to do with the less pleasant members of the family? Well, one does have the option to simply not feed unwelcome ancestors. Also, it has been said that "being dead gives one a new sense of perspective," so that people who were singularly intolerant and unhelpful in life are often happy to atone by watching over their surviving family.

A great-uncle who was angry and violent in life might be just the person to call on for "enemy work," or just to help one to be more assertive. As for family that was outright abusive (this comes up fairly often on the Vodou list I belong to), well, you are certainly justified in shunning them and starving them if you wish (there are even rituals to "exile" hateful ancestors). On the other hand (and apparently this is a common approach in Haiti, where domestic abuse is epidemic), if a person has done terrible things to you in life, then put them to work for you after they die - they OWE you, big time. Feed them just enough to keep them working off their debt. Of course, in this (as in all things), YMMV.

~L
 
 
Sekhmet
14:39 / 15.02.05
Another thought: don't the majority of the monotheistic Western beliefs maintain that once a person dies, they are no longer present; their spirit moves on to the next world, to Heaven or Hell, the afterlife, never to return? Barring the occasional haunting, of course...

The dominance of this mode of thought in the Western world might also go a long way toward explaining the absence of ancestor-oriented activity in Western trads.
 
 
Chiropteran
14:55 / 15.02.05
Sekhmet: Very possibly, because if the "good" souls go to Heaven... who's left hanging around? The "bad" souls - suicides, unrepentant sinners, witches and occultists who seek to postpone Judgement. Scary folks with ethereal axes to grind.

I checked miss cat's site, and it turns out that the article on the "Friendly Dead" versus the "Uncanny Dead" is part of the unpublished material from her hoodoo course (so I can't offer a link). She does say, in addition to what I outlined above, that no culture completely embodies either extreme - even "Friendly Dead" cultures might have trouble with the spirits of executed murderers, for instance, and "Uncanny Dead" cultures do often make exceptions for very respected loved ones. The generalizations are just that.

~L
 
 
A fall of geckos
15:21 / 15.02.05
This is something I've been considering - less from a magical pov, and more from an interest in European history, folklaw etc...

There's at least some evidence of ancestor worship in pre-Christian Ireland - in the Boyne Valley (notably Newgrange, Knowth & Dowth) there's evidence of the dual use of tombs, both as burial areas and as community areas/ritual space. I don't know if it's possible to find a connection between head cults and ancestor worship, but there's at least some evidence of head cults connected to beehive tombs and holy wells throughout the Orkneys and England (also White Tower in London).

Additionally, (if I recall correctly) the traditional English/Celtic fairyland was considered to be the land of the dead, and where we go when we dream (as it's possible to meet the dead in our dreams) as much as the land of fairies. There are also pretty strong connections between burial mounds and the traditional stories of fairyland. Although this doesn't necessitate a connection with ancestor worship, it does suggest a different perception of the relationship between the living and the dead, with sleep as a liminal zone. It strikes me that this could be an interesting area to explore, treating the English fairyland as the spirit world - accessible through dreams and trance states (and also a place associated with artistic creativity in Welsh, Irish and Breton folklaw).

Though not directly concerned with ancestor worship these articles may be of interest. They're examining the place of the Black Dog in English and Anglo-Saxon folklaw:

Black Dogs - Guardians of the corpse ways
Hellhounds, Werewolves and the Germanic Underworld
Black dogs in folklore

The hypothesis of these pieces is that the Black Dog figure is the remains of a Celtic/pre-Christian/Anglo Saxon tradition, of the dog as psycopomp. It's interesting to me as a probable case of the prophane being made sacred out of necessity - in Egypt Anubis (or Bau) is likely to have been originally accepted as a cult figure due to the impossibility of keeping the jackals out of the tombs. When it's impossible to separate the prophane from the sacred physically, it becomes necessary to combine them.

Anyway, the black dog as psycopomp could be an interesting thing to explore magically - dogs could be used as guides etc... If I recall correctly, there's some evidence (dog skulls and teeth at sacred spots) of dog cults in the London area, but I don't have my books here, so I could be wrong (I think it was in Ackroyd's London). I can think of at least one Black Dog in London -the Black Dog of Newgate, but given the general interpretation of this figure, it may be best left alone.

Excuse me if this has all been a little rambling - ultimately the thing I'm trying to say is that I'm not too sure of how much ancestor worship there was in Europe, but there was definitely a different attitude to death and the dead which is worth considering and possibly exploring.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:46 / 15.02.05
How, then, to connect with largely anonymous, unknown ancestors?

Not meaning to be flippant or anything, but... by using magic? I havent really found a lack of initial knowledge about my ancestors to be that much of an obstacle to working with them and developing a relationship with them. I don't know the name of my paternal Grandfather, and only really know anything at all about my maternal Grandparents who died during my lifetime, apart from some extremely scant and vague knowledge about a few others.

Whilst there's certainly a strong desire coming from them that I go off and do some proper research into their lives, and this would no doubt add another level of depth to my practice, it isnt really an insurmountable problem to getting started with ancestor work. All you really have to do is build an altar for them, feed them regularly, have a chat to them, and listen to what they have to say. If you get it working, it will then take on a life of its own and you might be surprised at where it takes you, much like any other practice.

Even if I knew loads about my family tree going back to the 18th century, this would still only really be a drop in the ocean compared to the ancestral tree in its entirety. At one level, I think ancestor worship is – or can be – less about the veneration of specific personalities whose lives you recall and who you know a lot about, and more to do with coming to an understanding of yourself as part of a larger process.

At least in my version of it, feeding the ancestors is a way of strengthening my link to them, my sense of connection to a bigger whole, the "family tree" perceived quite literally as one solid object stretched through time – with us as the tips of the branches reaching out into the world with the weight and support of those who have gone before behind us. I find that it actually encourages this kind of perception of myself, not as an individual soul alone in a hostile world, but as a cell in a larger ongoing process. The ancestors are an integral part of me and I'm an integral part of them, so by feeding them and nourishing them, I'm actively feeding and nourishing the roots and branches of the entity that I'm growing from, the entity that I am. The kind of results I get from ancestral practice are quite concurrent with this as well, it does feel like the foundations of my being are getting strengthened, which has the knock on effect of making the whole process healthier.

In her folkloric work she has made a rough distinction between "friendly-dead" cultures and "scary-dead" cultures

Hmmm... Not sure how far I'd agree with that distinction... the prohibitions among the Yoruban Egungun cults concerning contact between the masked Egungun dancers and the congregation contain things like if the robes of the masked dead touch anyone present, then both parties are instantly put to death along with every woman present! Which doesnt strike me as especially "friendly-dead"... Similarly, whilst European countries are largely superstitious about the cemetery and fearful of ghosts and evil spirits, there's also aspects of Catholicism that involve lighting candles for the departed, and – whilst I'm not very clued up on the subject, hence this thread – I'd be very surprised if there arent ancestor-positive traditions within Celtic, Scottish, Irish, Northern European religious practices, going further back.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:20 / 15.02.05
Hmmm... Not sure how far I'd agree with that distinction...

Well, as I said, it's a rough distinction. There are certainly notable exceptions on both sides, but broad cultural patterns can be recognized. Also, "Friendly" may not always be the most appropriate word, since even in some venerative cultures the Dead can be powerful and potentially dangerous to work with (like high explosives), but they are still honored and approached for aid (on a societal level, contrasted with a generally "Uncanny Dead" culture where a given individual might still call on a dead parent in times of need - but there aren't Day of the Dead ceremonies and family altars in every home).

Also, Europe and Africa are both large and diverse places. Generally speaking, African cultures tend towards a view of the Dead as generally benevolent (even if dangerous), and European cultures tend towards a view of the Dead as dangerous and frightening (or at least not actively helpful) - according to cat's model, which I should clarify that I am describing more than endorsing (I haven't yet sufficient knowledge or experience to verify it for myself).

Perhaps someone who has had their catechism can offer more to this, but I seem to remember reading that Catholic candles and prayers for the Dead are intended in some way to aid or ease them in Purgatory (which puts them, I would think, somewhat beyond the cultural status of the 'earth-bound' dead). I have no idea when/where I picked that up, but could someone confirm or deny?

~L
 
 
Chiropteran
16:49 / 15.02.05
Just a passing thought: I wonder if perhaps indigenous European ancestor veneration might have been particularly targeted and suppressed by the Romans during periods of conquest and occupation? The ancestors of a People can be a source of strength and a focus for both military and cultural resistance - as much or even more than the gods, because of the immediacy and intimacy of the blood relation. It would have been in the Roman interest, I would think, to destroy a conquered nation's ties to their past (via the Dead).

Does anyone (here, that is) know anything about the Roman attitudes towards the Dead? They had a mythology that included an Underworld and the spirits of the Dead, but I don't know whether the Dead were believed to intercede in the world of the living. If they were believed to act in the world, that would give the Romans an additional reason to suppress veneration among conquered people (i.e. Undead Druids).

Anyway, it might account for the contrast between the archeological evidence of possible ancestor veneration and the paucity of surviving "ancestor cults" in Europe today (aside from some scattered customs).

Or I could be full of it. This is just off the top of my head, pending research, so add salt to taste.

~L
 
 
Sekhmet
17:03 / 15.02.05
How, then, to connect with largely anonymous, unknown ancestors?

Not meaning to be flippant or anything, but... by using magic? I haven't really found a lack of initial knowledge about my ancestors to be that much of an obstacle to working with them and developing a relationship with them...


Point taken. I would consider, though, that the individual, lacking knowledge or any emotional connection to hir extended family, might not see any point or purpose in trying to connect with these unknown, deceased individuals who seem to have so little to do with hir Self. In some cases people feel so disconnected, even alienated, from their families, that the idea of working magically with their ancestors would seem at best laughable and at worst frightening.

Obviously in your practice, Gypsy, you've gotten something out of it, but I can easily see why the idea would never occur to many practicioners, or if it did, only in a theoretical way.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:46 / 15.02.05
>> an understanding of yourself as part of a larger process.

>> At least in my version of it, feeding the ancestors is a way of strengthening my link to them, my sense of connection to a bigger whole, the "family tree" perceived quite literally as one solid object stretched through time

Yes, I have been thinking of it in these terms too - like I said, both karmically and spiritually. I heard one Eastern spiritual tradition that basically says 1/3 of your lot in this life is determined by the karma of your ancestors, 1/3 from your own soul's individual karma, and 1/3 from your attitude and what you create magickally in this life for yourself.

>> Europe and many indigenous American cultures fear the dead - they have many stories about vengeful spirits who haunt the living.

Well, as far as I know, the biggest indigenous American culture of all - the Indians in North America - were big on ancestor reverence and worship.
 
 
rising and revolving
20:27 / 15.02.05
At least in my version of it, feeding the ancestors is a way of strengthening my link to them, my sense of connection to a bigger whole, the "family tree" perceived quite literally as one solid object stretched through time – with us as the tips of the branches reaching out into the world with the weight and support of those who have gone before behind us.

Gypsy, do you find this results in a pressure to breed? Because that's a lot of what I get from the sense of being at the tip of the chain - there's a lot of obligation to move it forwards.

But that could just be me.
 
 
grant
21:12 / 15.02.05
I think you also might be writing around the difference between magic and religion.

I mean, Western occultism (Golden Dawn style or whatever) doesn't really "worship" anything, does it?

Whereas Spiritualism survives to the present day as an organized religion, with churches and ministers and everything.

There are some Catholic elements that *seem* close to other ancestor worship rites, but they're not quite the same. The closest one I know is the Day of the Dead (All Souls Day), which is celebrated in Mexico with parades (and lots of skeleton kitsch) and in Germany with a day off work where everyone goes to the graveyards to tidy up the family plot.
Other than that, I can't think of any kind of "offerings to the ancestors" or formal prayers for ancestors to intercede on their descendants' behalf -- you can have a Mass said in someone's memory, but that's pretty different.
 
 
illmatic
08:19 / 16.02.05
I think you might find the following of interest, GL.

In England, even today, the wishes of the dead are respected. .. the basic principle is that a dying man’s wishes, formerly expressed, should be legally enforced as far as is socially acceptable. But we recognise that we are free to depart from the social, political, moral or aesthetic prejudice of our ancestors; indeed, it is generally taken for granted that we will do so. The pace of social and technological change is too fast for us to be able to stick to ancient ways. To that extent we live in a society that has cut off its roots in the past.

This break with the past had been assisted by the events of the Reformation, particularly the denial of purgatory, and the accompanying destruction of many of the religious foundations devoted to singing prayers to the dead. In the middle ages such prayers had been an important aspect of popular religion. Apart from the monasteries, there were the perpetual chanteries… these institutions existed to celebrate masses for the repose of the soul of the founder of the family, and their liturgy and daily routine often reflected the details of his expressed wishes… medieval wills often contained bequests to pay for the singing of special masses on the testator’s behalf. These obits, as they were called, combined the collection of alms with masses for the dead. A substantial proportion of the resources of medieval society was thus given over to ensuring the spiritual welfare of its dead members, and the practice of praying for the dead retained its vitality until the sixteenth century. In some areas such rituals lingered on after the Reformation: bell-ringing on All Souls Eve, “month days” and similar celebrations on anniversaries of deaths, offerings of money and food at funerals, “sin-eating” by scapegoats hired to take on the dead mans sins. So long as it lasted, the doctrine of Purgatory gave impressive reinforcement to the notion of society as a community between the dead and the living.

…. There was no precedent for the violence of the Reformation, the destruction of the abbeys and chanteries, and the violation of the testaments of so many dead persons, in blatant defiance of “innumerable wills, devoutly made”. Whereas medieval Catholics had believed that God would let souls linger in purgatory if masses were said for them, Protestant doctrine meant that each generation could be indifferent to the fate of it’s predecessors. Every individual was now to keep his own balance sheet, and a man could no longer atone for his sins by the prayers of his descendants. This implied an altogether more atomistic conception of the relationship in which members of society stood in relation to each other.


Keith Thomas, Religion and the Decline of Magic p. 719-721

So it seems there was very much a tradition of ancestor worship up to recent times, even though it took a form unique to the Christian Church. I’d say this atomistic conception of society is still very much with us, only much, much more pronounced, and this has combined with a lot of other factors (not all of which are totally bad things IMO), which led to the decline of ancestral veneration i.e. the almost total secularisation of society, industrialisation and the geographical displacement that accompanies it.To state the obvious, I’d say the reasons for the survival of these practices in different cultures, is that they are experiencing these processes in hugely truncated time frames whereas in the West we’ve had several hundred years to live with them.
 
 
illmatic
08:22 / 16.02.05
That should say "Catholic Church", duh!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:48 / 16.02.05
the individual, lacking knowledge or any emotional connection to hir extended family, might not see any point or purpose in trying to connect with these unknown, deceased individuals who seem to have so little to do with hir Self. In some cases people feel so disconnected, even alienated, from their families...

From the perspective of ancestor veneration, this sense of disconnection and alienation from your roots - and feelings of disconnection and alienation in general – are symptoms of having neglected your ancestors, and are very much the point of the practice. In many cultures, ancestor work begins from the position that the health and wellbeing of a person, their success in life, and general day-to-day 'luck' in things, is largely dependant on whether their ancestors are happy or not.

I think that possibly the best way for the western magician to try and understand this belief, is using the ancestral tree metaphor. Your ancestors are you. There's no distinction, you're part of the same object, and therefore their needs and yours are intimitely bound up. The way in which this tree grows could perhaps be considered as analogous to the Thelemic True Will.

You are the product of their lives, and have inherited their genetic material, habits, mannerisms, proclivities, aptitudes and probably all sorts of other shit. There are accounts in Vodou of the Lwa sometimes having difficulty in distinguishing between a Voudoisant and one of their ancestors, as if they perhaps see the whole entity communicating with them, and you as an individual appear to simply be the part currently speaking to them.

Feeding your ancestors, attending to them, listening to them, seeking their counsel and trying to get them onside with whatever you happen to be doing in the world, is perhaps a process of making sure that the entire organism is working in accordance and all the different parts more or less agree with one another.

the idea of working magically with their ancestors would seem at best laughable and at worst frightening.

Which I think is quite interesting in itself, given the importance of ancestor veneration in other non-western magical traditions. When I first started this practice, I came up against these same little barriers. The thought of involving my ancestors in magical practice was a bit weird, absurd even. I had a lot of difficulty getting my head around it, but it seemed so central to the mysteries of the cultural tradition I was attempting to work with, that I thought I'd just put aside all of these conscious objections and just go with it and see what happened.

I found the long-term results really rewarding, to the point that they radically altered my perspective on a whole range of areas, and made me think about magic, and what it's for, in a completely different way. Which to my mind, was certainly worth the price of admission.

Gypsy, do you find this results in a pressure to breed? Because that's a lot of what I get from the sense of being at the tip of the chain - there's a lot of obligation to move it forwards.

I think it's broader than that. Over the course of the five years I've been observing it, ancestor work has really made me look differently at all sorts of areas that I'd never really given much thought to before, and which I had certainly never thought of looking at through a magical lens. It gradually alters your conditioned perspectives on all the processes of human life, so you end up revising your opinions on everything from procreation, to old age, to your changing relationships with your family, to the process of death. I'd say that ancestor work doesnt so much apply the pressure to breed, but gives you a much closer understanding of the genetic impulse to breed that we have within us.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:53 / 16.02.05
A substantial proportion of the resources of medieval society was thus given over to ensuring the spiritual welfare of its dead members, and the practice of praying for the dead retained its vitality until the sixteenth century.

I think it's fascinating how the same basic procedures of interacting with the dead turn up here, but with the completely different spin of Catholicism, so it's now all about sin and purgatory. Ancestor venerence is about keeping the dead out of hell while they purge themselves of sin, rather than petitioning them for aid and involvement in earthly affairs.

But you could perhaps make a case that the two perspectives arent quite as irreconcilable as they might first appear. Ancestor worship in traditions such as Vodou is not exclusively about "getting your ancestors to do stuff for you"; I think it's more about looking after them, feeding them, lighting a candle to give them warmth in the waters below, taking care of their departed souls, and so on. Their aid and assistance is generally considered a side effect of looking after them, so the core practice of ancestor veneration in Vodou and the medieval church do seem fairly close in spirit.

As I recall from the Keith Thomas book, and it's been a while since I looked at it, one of the things that took place during the Reformation was the excising of all the "magical thinking" that had attached itself to the early church. A lot of this may have had its roots in a loose hybridisation between earlier pagan beliefs and Catholicism, that probably came about as a sideproduct of churches being built over earlier sacred sites and so on. The local church was often thought of as a "repository of magical power" and people would take things like holy water and communion wafers to use as protective amulets or even to help their crops grow. So I wonder if the popularity of ancestor veneration in medieval Catholicism may have some earlier precedent in folk belief, with the emphasis on sin and purgatory functioning as something to make it more palatable within the context of early Christianity...

It's either in 'Religion and the Decline of Magic' or the more recent book 'Cunning Folk' (don't have author's name to hand), but I remember reading that after the Reformation, when these magical elements were purged from the church, we saw the rise of the cunning folk. They came about to basically service the needs that were no longer being satisfied by the Church, and much of the magic they employed was identical to the various charms and procedures that had previously been appended to Catholicism. It makes me wonder if there's any evidence of practices that could be described as ancestor veneration within the activities of the cunning folk...

Probably not, but I think it takes us back to this post-Reformation split into two discernable 'types' of magician in England; the cunning person – who fills an aspect of the shamanic role and works practical magic for the people in hir community; and the high magician – who embarks on grand magical experiments in the manner of John Dee or the fictional Dr Faustus. Much of contemporary magical practice, from the Golden Dawn onwards, tends to take the lead of the latter current, so I wonder if ancestor veneration is another thing that slipped through the cracks and disappeared, not being readily or easily incorporated into either the reformed church, cunning practice, or high magic... All food for thought I guess.

I'm trying to think of a Greek or Latin term that I could casually missuse in order to conjure Haus into this thread. I'd be interested to know to what extent classical notions of ancestor veneration may have shaped how western culture thinks about the dead.
 
 
Chiropteran
13:19 / 16.02.05
Gypsy, you're right about the "caretaking" aspect of Vodou ancestor veneration, which I know I skimmed over above - the idea that "wow, they can do stuff for us, too!" is, I think, less familiar (and very appealing) to European or Euro-American culture, so it does get overemphasized especially among people who are drawn to Vodou from "outside" (Mambo Racine, on her elist, is constantly having to rein in people who come on posting "how do I use my ancestors to do ____??" "Well, first, we don't 'use' our ancestors for anything..."). Haitian culture does apparently have a very strong current of commerce or exchange, though, even within families (I'm drawing from Mama Lola - can anyone add to this, firsthand?), so that while the caretaking is done out of love, concrete services are definitely expected in return.

What might some of the ramifications be of re-integrating ancestor veneration into Golden Dawn-rooted "high magic" or modern Western magic generally?

~L
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:43 / 16.02.05
What might some of the ramifications be of re-integrating ancestor veneration into Golden Dawn-rooted "high magic" or modern Western magic generally?

I think the breakdown of the split between 'high magic' and 'cunning practice' is something that's ongoing and has been for awhile. Chaos magic, with its emphasis on results, did a lot to kickstart this process, whilst remaining fairly influenced by its ceremonial and high magic predecessors in certain other regards.

Based largely on how its gone in the microcosm of my own practice, I would say that bringing 'magico-religious' elements such as ancestor veneration and 'service' based deity work, into the working belief system of a post-chaos contemporary western magician does, amongst other things, invest the practical activities of sorcery and results magic with a meaning, purpose and significance that is every bit as spiritual and evolutionary as 'high magic', yet directly concerned with everyday life and the human process.
 
 
Sekhmet
13:56 / 16.02.05
Is it possible that some of the spirits being worked with by individual Western magicians might be ancestors, without being recognized as such within the context of the practicioner's system? If the given system doesn't include ancestor veneration, I wonder if such friendly spirits would simply be recontextualized as guardians or servitors? Or will ancestor spirits never approach independently, without being fed or appealed to?

This is obviously something I know nothing about, but it's fascinating; thanks for the thread, Gypsy. I'd like to learn more about it.
 
 
illmatic
14:15 / 16.02.05
Just to add a thought, taking the conversation in a different direction. I've found this sort of work very simple and direct in a way that a lot of other magical practice isn't - no need to enter "gnosis"*, perfect your yogic skills, learn elaborate symbol systems and so on. You just sit down and pray. It's also got a visceral appeal, everyone kind of "gets it" straight away. I can imagine explain it to my mum quite happily for instance. It seems to fit very much in the kitchen witch/cunning man tradition of being bloody common sense. Not that I'd always argue against complexity and intellectual effort but there's something that's immediately understandable about this practice that makes likely to appeal widely.

As to what effects its re-introduction might have - with those comments in mind, possibly the broadening of this practice from "occultism" - hidden and obscure - back to something more everyday?

*I really wonder if "gnosis" is necessary for magick to occur, much as it's part of magickal dogma these days.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:30 / 16.02.05
*I really wonder if "gnosis" is necessary for magick to occur, much as it's part of magickal dogma these days.

I've got some thoughts on that one myself, do you want to start it as a new thread?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:53 / 16.02.05
Is it possible that some of the spirits being worked with by individual Western magicians might be ancestors, without being recognized as such within the context of the practicioner's system? If the given system doesn't include ancestor veneration, I wonder if such friendly spirits would simply be recontextualized as guardians or servitors?

Funny you should say that. I had an interesting conversation the other week with a friend of mine who is a Priestess in Gardnerian Wicca, and she was telling me that various things that were a part of Gerald Gardner's original version of Wicca have slid from view in intervening years. For instance, most intriguingly, when you call the quarters in Wicca, this was apparently meant to be a call to the ancestors to be present in the circle. Not a call to the elements, which is a later hybridisation with ceremonial magic. We speculated that the involvement of ancestors may have been something Gardner picked up during his time spent in Africa, where – given his interests – he was fairly likely to have been exposed to ancestor-positive magical traditions...

Or will ancestor spirits never approach independently, without being fed or appealed to?

It depends who you speak to. There's at least one school of thought that would say it's the feeding and caretaking process of ancestor work that empowers the ancestors to come through and take an active role in things. There are very elaborate ceremonies in Haitian Vodou for "reclaiming the dead from the waters", which are considered integral to the business of ancestor worship. But other cultures handle it differently, with the dead returning in dreams and visions of their own accord, so I think it's all open to some debate.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:31 / 16.02.05
Interesting topic, Gypsy.
The term "ancestor worship" is itself somewhat problematic. It was first coined by Herbert Spencer in 1885 and used almost exclusively to describe the cultural practices of peoples that were considered at the time to be primitive or barbaric. Spencer, like many of his contemporaries, was an ardent evolutionist, and, following the influence of Hegel, Max Meuller and others, viewed comparative religion as a historical progression from the 'primitive' to the 'sophisticated' - the latter being Christianity. The general upshot of this is that "ancestor worship" as a concept tends to get applied to non-western societies, rather than "our" own religious practices.

In the early 80s I did some sociological research into how people in local village communities (around West Yorkshire) coped with grief. Interestingly enough for this thread, I found it was very common for people to visit the graves of deceased relatives to 'talk through' problems, and that quite a few people preferred to do this rather than talk to 'professionals' such as the clergy or social workers. I'd hazard a guess that there are probably a very wide range of practices relating to ancestor veneration in the UK, but that they are 'invisible' in the sense that they're not being studied or written about - hardly surprising given the taboo over discussing death/old age.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:41 / 16.02.05
talking with ancestors is incrediably important, i cant over emphasise enough the need to communicate with them.
 
 
gale
16:30 / 16.02.05
My father died eight years ago. There is a very bizarre "keep up with the joneses" mentality in the cemetery. For instance, if someone has planted an azalea bush, well, then we have to plant a bigger one. It has nothing to do with reverence and everything to do with appearances. Thus, thanks to my mother and sister, my father has ended up with a ridiculously expensive and ornate tombstone (which he would have hated) and tons of flowers, but none that he liked!

His grave isn't "him" and I feel closer to him if I just close my eyes and think about him. I keep pictures of him in the room I use for magic--but I never thought about that until now. After reading this really great thread, I think this spring I'll go plant some zinnias, because they were my father's favorite flower--my mother hates them, but they're not for her.
 
 
farseer /pokes out an i
22:02 / 16.02.05
For me, it's something that's very much come forward as a result of the practice - while not necessarily a road I was intentionally heading down, it's something I've been drawn to.
Same here, my magical practise lead me to ancestor worship. It began a while ago when I first encountered what I refer to as my HGA. At the time I knew that the HGA for me seemed to be composed of future and past ancestor-me(s). Hm, hard to put into words, I hope that makes some semblance of sense...

Geckodancing posted what I was thinking of, with dual-use tombs/POP (places of power) and the Otherworld/dreamtime.

How, then, to connect with largely anonymous, unknown ancestors?
Ancestor worship, Ancestor reverance, both terms work for me, and apply to how I think about this subject in my head. I have had the opportunity to look at the genelogical trees constructed by family members, but I've largely passed on them (other then to randomly note that I'm related to Jesse James somehow.) Through ritual, symbol, and dream work, I've developed my own connection to the nameless-before-me-ancestors.

I also see myself as a portion of the ancestor-process. I will one day be one with/become an ancestor, and interacting with them (mostly sending them some attention and listening, really) has only become easier over time.

Ack! work's out, gotta log. maybe more later. This is such a timely thread for me...
 
 
gale
15:59 / 17.02.05
The anonymous, unknown factor is why it never occurred to me to contact my ancestors.

If I were to sit down, light a candle, put out an offering of food or wine with the intention of talking to my ancestors, and then just start talking, is that enough? It seems that although I don't feel like I know my ancestors, they probably know me--I can use the parts of them that are part of me as a link.

I guess the only answer is do it and see what happens!
 
 
FinderWolf
15:23 / 03.06.05
On the subject of ancestor/family worship, Memorial Day is the birthday of an uncle who I was named after. He was killed in Vietnam at age 22, so my family's always considered it eerie and ironic that he was born on the day we honor US fallen soldiers.

So last Monday, Memorial Day, my parents go to a memorial mass for my uncle (who I never met). They then go out to a new restuarant for the first time in my home town. When their waiter shows up, they both go white as sheets. The waiter is about 18 and looks uncannily like my late uncle. They both said they saw the strong resemblance right away. They eventually told him that he reminded them of my uncle; I'm sure the kid didn't quite know what to say to that. My parents said they could never bring my grandmother to that restuarant (it's my uncle's mother) because if that waiter was there she'd be hysterical crying at the sight of this guy.

My mother, who rarely talks about supernatural/occult stuff, said she felt it was a sign from my uncle, comforting my parents and saying he's ok.

I've often done some prayers and small workings to my uncle, since I bear his name, and we all know how powerful names are in life and magick. Never had any direct visitations or manifestations by him, however, so far.
 
 
Tamayyurt
03:10 / 04.06.05
Wow, that’s pretty interesting. I’m almost tempted to say “reincarnation!” but that wouldn’t have anything to do with physical appearance, would it? Still, a cool story. Do you look like your uncle, Finder?
 
 
FinderWolf
15:04 / 04.06.05
I don't really look like him much at all; my brother looks a tiny bit more related to him than I do, but neither of us look much like him.

I just got the impression that it was a sign of people, events & circumstances being shifted into place to send a sign of comfort or awareness (or appreciation that he is still being remembered and respected) from my uncle.
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply