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Moore/Morrison: 'did you call my cousin a fanny' saga . . . -continued-

 
  

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yawn - thing's buddy
21:17 / 14.02.05
MOORE: "MORRISON! - YOU SLAG!!!"

After having to put up with GM saying Watchmen is 'boring' for a number of years, moore yobs up the ante in an online interview:

AM: Well I wasn't gonna mention any names…but yeah, I didn't really like Arkham Asylum .

DW: That's interesting, because that didn't seem to work as much as anything I've read…and I'm not sure why.

AM: Not to slag anyone off, but at the time, I met Dave McKean after Arkham Asylum came out, always a difficult time, the book's come out, by someone you know and get on with, and you don't happen to like it, then, you have to choose between honesty and diplomacy, and I remember saying to Dave McKean that I hadn't liked Arkham Asylum , I thought his art had been beautiful, lovely, but it was the story that the art was in service to…

DW: Perhaps it wasn't really a story…

AM: Well it wasn't much of a story, the story didn't really resonate for me on any level, and the fact that it had got Dave's beautiful sumptuous artwork appended to it, I said to Dave that it was like putting an exquisite golden frame – and I said your art is an exquisite golden frame, it is, it's exquisite – it's like putting that exquisite golden frame around a dog turd. I said it's not gonna make the dog turd look any better. In fact the dog turd can make the exquisite golden frame look a bit – an attempt to polish a turd. It's like, the artwork, if it's not in service to something which has depth, it can be the most gorgeous stuff in the world, and the more gorgeous it is, the sillier it will look. Because you'll be thinking: “Someone expended all this effort and created all this beauty on this story”. It's like the gap between the story and the art is vast.



sa ninteresting interview.

moore's overpowering bluster comes through loud and clear.


http://www.enginecomics.co.uk/interviews/jan05/alanmoore.htm

from linkmachinego.
 
 
diz
02:05 / 15.02.05
i can't blame Moore for finally shooting back. GM has kind of been a twat in this respect.
 
 
rabideyemovement
03:22 / 15.02.05
Not to mention, Arkham Asylum is hardly amongst Grant's best work. I really don't think Moore was trying to badmouth him, but maybe just point out that every good writer has some lackluster work.
 
 
CameronStewart
03:48 / 15.02.05
Plus, Moore doesn't think too fondly of his OWN "serious" Batman story, The Killing Joke. Perhaps it's just more an attack on the idea of trying to graft all this gravity and adulthood onto silly children's characters...
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
07:45 / 15.02.05
just before the excerpt, Moore discusses his own bat book, Killing Joke.

i recommend you read it if you would like to contextualise Moore's comments re AA.

IMO, the comments are deliberately rude.

And while moore is undeniably a good interview, he has considerably less charm than Morrison - it must be said.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:00 / 15.02.05
I've got no taste. I liked both Killing Joke and Arkham. Oh, well.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
09:24 / 15.02.05
and I said your art is an exquisite golden frame, it is, it's exquisite - made me laugh. Do you think he was gazing lovingly into McKean's baby blues at the time.
See I always thought McKean's artwork caused real dmage to 'serious' comics, and often meant piss-weak books like 'Black Orchid' (Gaiman's) got lauded when tghey were actually just boring. I think Arkham woulod look loads better drawn by Klaus Janson, or Jim Aparo - an old school Bat-artist.
What's really frustrating is that Moore and Morrison meet on so many issues, and end up saying the same thing whilst sniping at each other. Frustrating.
But, yeah gotta agree with Brother Yawn, bit rude. Morrison never called Watchmen a 'turd'. Or at least if he did, he did it with a bit more charm. Ahhh well.
 
 
_Boboss
10:08 / 15.02.05
i think arkham asylum would work better written by alan grant and drawn by norm breyfogle.

the factionalism here is silly, but fun to think about for a while: moore, gaiman and mckean represent the general broadsheet side of the late eighties adult boom - to this day they get madder props for due to the coffetable friendliness of their definitive work. they have big enough faces for weight of face alone to have got them good gigs in hollywood or on the hapless fringes of mainstream publishing. despite their preference for stratospheric environments, they have good earthy links to the selfpub/B&W domains and are constantly raving about or namechecked by millidge, talbot, grist, bissette, campbell, or sim, the truly respectable, sane, hard-working individuals who're still out there building these crazy books we call comic from the ground-up.

at the same time neil, alan and the plump, poorly-groomed david were establishing their reputations another group of brits were doing the same thing. though they 'broke' a few years after affable al and nihilistic neil, the deadline lot, the hewletts, bonds and dillons, are basically contemporary with them. their style of comics was markedly different, revelling more in its disposability and alignment with yoof-pop culture. they were basically cartoonists or designers, different to mckean in ways that hardly need describing, who were into making comics that felt like music, or music journalism perhaps. morrison and milligan were who these chaps went to when they wanted a nicely crafted story to go around their pictures of people wearing indie-ts.

nearly twenty years on these two gangs haven't really met-up much. team spirit is still very sure of who it does and doesn't imbue. the cartoonies have solid links with both mainstream comics-publishing companies and the music biz, but the photomontagiers have shitloads of movies in production. so they've both won.

so we go back to the comics, where everyone started, and where everyone's relative talents can best be measured. personally, i'll take flex mentallo or rogan gosh over sandman and probably even from hell, moore's body of work is likely to persist further, his writing connects more easily with preconceived notions of how the lexis of literature should sound.

promethea ends this week. seven soldiers seems too big to convince me that there won't be holes here and there, for kovacs and boboss to twist their breeks around, and the comics blogosphere to give a lukewarm response. moore's forthcoming albion could turn out to be perfidious indeed: he might not even write most of it himself. it's a sign of the enormous good will he's built up that the word 'nepotism' has not yet been widely used around him.

point? no, there isn't one really. remember saying a while ago 'stuck in dynamic creative tension for the good of the rest of us'. i still hold by that, the barbs are fun, turning unseemly, especially to the fans of both who see so many similarities in their work (and lives - neither have been too shy about letting us know).

[and i think arkham asylum was okay. it's been years, but i remember thinking that the jung and the tarot held together pretty well. the fact that morrison has managed to put out a lot more batmanology thn moore has helps his case here. if moore really wanted to write a classic batman joker story, he should have told the tale of what happened the next time they met up.]
 
 
FinderWolf
13:27 / 15.02.05
>> i think arkham asylum would work better written by alan grant and drawn by norm breyfogle.

apropo of nothing, I really liked Grant & Breyfogle's run on DETECTIVE and BATMAN. Totally fun, intelligent, under-appreciated Batman comics, if you ask me.
 
 
_Boboss
13:30 / 15.02.05
i like the ventriloquist. an instant batbaddie classic. alan grant, that aside, is my least favourite professional comics writer.
 
 
Spaniel
13:36 / 15.02.05
I was a fan of Grant and Breyfogle's run, but I was pretty young, and starving for decent comics.

Grant lost me forever with his Anarky mini and its amazing bibliography.

As for the ongoing whinge war between Moore and Morrison, I just find it irritating.
 
 
Spaniel
13:38 / 15.02.05
For the record, I think it was Breyfogle's art that sold the book to me. Grant's writing was pretty incidental.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:07 / 15.02.05
moore just comes across as boring in this interview.

despite it being interesting.

sadly, got a feeling his best work is behind him.

not the case with GM, IMO.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:58 / 15.02.05
'norm breyfogle' and 'bob fingeroth' (euchhh!) are the two most disgusting names in comics.
 
 
The Falcon
15:10 / 15.02.05
Not Danny Fingeroth? They always used to mis-spell it 'Fingergroth' somewhere; those UK Spider-Man compendiums? There may be two.

I really liked the Moore interview; so much so I already linked to it in the other Moore Radio 4 thread.

And highlighted the same bit; it feels like Alan taking a break from a lovely chat for a minute to say 'I'm a cock', Office style. At least Grant is funny when he's pricking beardy's balloon, and at least someone does; 'Moore ran screaming from Watchmen and took a decade to reinvent himself as me.'

Ironic then that GM's largely going the ABCesque route with Seaguy and - what I've seen of - Seven Soldiers. Having JHW III doing pencils on the bookends won't leaven that comparison, in fairness.

AA would've been better with Janson art, f'sho.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
15:42 / 15.02.05
Alan Grant brought Ace the Bat hound back, and not in a good way. I think of those as 'Batman: The grey & blue years'.

(would like to apologise for the sheer amount of typos in my previous post - too much coffee too early)
 
 
Krug
16:54 / 15.02.05
Well I love both Killing Joke and Arkham.

Moore's best work is behind him? I don't know about that, it's been a few years since he's done something interesting and I may have to check out Lost Girls even though the premise doesn't interest me but the old man's still got it.

Let 'em slag each other, it's fun.

I don't think I really care for Alan Moore's criticisms. He bashes Grant Morrison's work, Vertigo, Sandman Mystery Theatre among other things and while the dog turd line is funny, I don't agree with it in the slightest. I've found Gaiman's writing to be unreadable goth wank at times and he's never slagged Gaiman because they're mates.

I wish he'd mentioned McKean's reply.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:25 / 15.02.05
who bashed first in this 'feud'? Morrison, I think, right...?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:45 / 15.02.05
It's all a bit silly and childish, isn't it? But still, if it pushes them to work harder to prove who's best, it can only be a good thing... (kind of like when you see a band just before they split up and they all fucking hate each other and are trying to outplay each other... it's often when they're at their best).
 
 
---
17:55 / 15.02.05
I think Alan and Grant should meet up somewhere and snog eachother.
 
 
Simplist
18:21 / 15.02.05
MvM all over again... Actually I find myself agreeing with Moore re:AA specifically--I always felt it had some cool ideas, but was fatally over-the-top in its "dark" self-seriousness.

Which, come to think of it, really points out the strengths and weaknesses of both men. Morrison is at his best when he just cuts loose and lets it fly--to the extent that he tries to hue to some careful tone or structure, his work feels contrived, as I feel was the case with Arhkam asylum. Moore, OTOH, is precisely the opposite--his best work is exactly that which is most hyper-controlled, carefully planned, meticulously executed. When he then tries to "cut loose" and do a fun, silver agey kind of thing like Tom Strong, it just feels flat and contrived, as Moore, ultimately, just isn't a fun, silver agey kind of guy and is probably characterologically incapable of "cutting loose", narratively speaking.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
18:37 / 15.02.05
But would you mess with Moore?



No way!
 
 
--
18:48 / 15.02.05
I dunno, I kind of liked "Arkham Asylum" more after I read GM's script for it in the re-released edition. I loved his description of The Mad Hatter, for example. It also gave me a bit of insight as to how formidable it must be for an artist to try to turn his scripts into comics...

I really have trouble saying bad things about Gaiman, mainly 'cuz he signed my copy of "Endless Nights" and drew a big sketch of Morpheus saying "Surprise James!" Granted, I've never met the guy (my dad did: He had him sign the book for me) but at that event where the signing occured, he stayed there way past the time he was supposed to leave making sure he talked to all the fans. Bottom line, I think he's a nice guy who's a little overrated at times (of course, is it really the man's fault if the media latches on to him like a parasite?) He has weak moments but I think, for the most part, "Sandman" holds up, and I don't think I've ever met a comic fan in real life who hasn't namechecked it. If anything it was my entryway into the Vertigo universe and comics in general, and from Gaiman I went on to people like Moore and Morrison, so only good things came out of it, for me at least.

I think "Promethea", for all the good art and imagery, really doesn't hold up, character and story-wise, and I really dislike Moore's approach to occultism. I mean, that whole Daath issue, it was more like Disney land or something, not scary or alien at all, which kinda shocks me cuz Moore's a Kenneth Grant fan so you'd think he'd have more Daathian imagery to work with... Though in retropsect he was probably going for his own personal representation of Daath, which is okay, but really, I was expecting Peter Cotontail to show up. Morrison really nailed that sephiroth with the Outer Church, I think.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
20:44 / 15.02.05
Yeah, I like elements of Arkham Asylum but altogether it didn't cohere into the usual transcencendent revelation I get reading Morrison. What I found compelling was not the idea that Batman "belongs" more to Arkham's terrifying but fantastic world than the outside mundane reality, but that the Joker was actually a man who was adapting to the sensory overload of the future. That he was the kind of person humanity had to look forward to.

It's too bad Moore and Morrison don't seem to like each other's work considering that they seem to be riffing on the same themes over and over.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
20:57 / 15.02.05
Comicks have never had quite a "taste feud" like this [so common in Music], so I believe it's improving.

next: script advance increase!
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:25 / 15.02.05
Alvin and Graham are fans of each other's best work though, surely. Gervase has always been perfectly upfront about the influence Marvel/Miracleman had on Zenith for example, and it's hard to imagine Animal Man and Doom Patrol existing in quite the same way if it had not been for Aleister's post-modernist, deconstructionist take on teh superhero thing in Swamp Thing or even Captain Britain. Similarly, would Aloysius Moon have really decided to become a magickian ( which he trades off these days in all his interviews, and again quite freely admits is a major source of inspiration, ) if Grape Maven hadn't got round to doing it first ?
 
 
--
23:00 / 15.02.05
You know, do you ever just sit back and marvel about why we spend so much time caring about this shit in the first place?
 
 
Bed Head
23:18 / 15.02.05
Huh? Who’s caring? I mean, really?

i'll take flex mentallo or rogan gosh over sandman and probably even from hell

What I like about Barbelith: that no-one immediately pops up to argue against the absolute rightness of this. It’s a given.
 
 
Spaniel
08:30 / 16.02.05
Actually, I prefer From Hell.

...would Aloysius Moon have really decided to become a magickian ( which he trades off these days in all his interviews, and again quite freely admits is a major source of inspiration, ) if Grape Maven hadn't got round to doing it first ?

I'd venture, very probably.
 
 
Spaniel
09:38 / 16.02.05
Stoatie, I agree with your "silly and childish" assessment, but I'm not sure it inspires either of them to work any harder. It's pretty unlikely they spend their time worrying about what the other is doing and how to out do them.

Although Alex might disagree.

Oh and, you lot, please go and VOTE.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:48 / 16.02.05
Yeah, you're probably right. It's a nice thought though, isn't it?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
10:09 / 16.02.05
But seriously, oranges are best.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:12 / 16.02.05
i love the idea of the two writing solely for the pleasure of outdoing eachother.
gotta be a future shock in there somewhere.
 
 
Spaniel
10:24 / 16.02.05
Bollocks, ugly fruit are the champions.
 
 
EvskiG
15:55 / 16.02.05
Might as well point out that the Moore interview is from 2002 (although recently published on the Internet), so he's not really responding to Morrison's recent criticisms.
 
  

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