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I am: a semi-conservative, Bush loving bastard, but am I a troll?

 
  

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Ender
06:31 / 13.02.05
I just had my one year Barbelith birthday, no need to send gifts, I must say this has been quite the year for me here. Getting to know the nuances of the Barb was not the easiest thing for me, and developing a thick skin took a while.

I feel confident in this post.

I was swimming through the old archives, and having been called a troll a time or two, was interested to see what a troll actually was. I found that I fit the profile, I do have very different views, and I am a young man with a flare for... stuff.

I want to clear some things up, I do support government (to a point), I am a pro-choice republican, and an advocate for same sex marriages. I debate with other conservatives, lobbying for liberal views, and I spend my breaks from work reading through the Barb, and listening to what people here have to say.

Most likely, I have different views than you do. But I respect what you think, I read it, and I feel connected here, the things said on this site somehow make sense to me in a way very little else does.

I may be a liberal in waiting, I come from a long line of republicans, and have never known anything different. I have spent little time on either coast, and when I did visit, it was for short periods of time. I live in a town where Bush has a 92% approval rating, according to the local paper I work for. So, the chances for anything untraditional to come my way and influence me are low. Except for Barbelith.

Blah Blah Blah, anyway, I am just here to say, I am not a troll. I am tired of feeling like I need to be on the defensive. I feel like I know people here, after reading so many posts, I am not here to start fights with friends.
I do have valid things to say.
I plan to be more active in my posting,
I owe it to myself, and I think to you.

I am open to discussion and questions, call me a glutton for punishment.
 
 
Ganesh
08:42 / 13.02.05
I'm still not entirely convinced you're not a jokesuit. It's difficult to believe anyone could be quite this wilfully masochistic.
 
 
Spaniel
09:29 / 13.02.05
What is it that you love about Bush, Ender?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:00 / 13.02.05
Well, the general rule of thumb is that if you've never

a) posted poetry or 'stream of consciousness' fiction about how all women are bitches and whores because they won't sleep with you
b) gone on at length about how you can smell paedophiles and their gay bread
c) insisted, at length, with no proof, that Haus is conducting a whispering campaign about you

then you aren't a troll. Nothing you wrote about yourself suggests you are a troll, it suggests you may have some views that are atypical of the mainstream of the board (and perhaps not, who can tell any more?) but nothing more. So I'm surprised that you felt the need to bring it up...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:09 / 13.02.05
Oh, pish, Ganesh. Welcome to the Internet! Who cares if it a fucking jokesuit (I ask for the umpteenth time)? The real elephant-headed god wouldn't be so afraid of being laughed at.

People like George Bush because he makes them feel safe. He says, "I'm just like you, except that I'm powerful, and I'll use my power to protect you." People who are so frightened and bewildered by This Modern Life, or who have never learned to question authority, look for that sort of message.

Ender, Being a Republican is not Evil (though it is Selfish), and the Republicans have strong party discipline, which makes it appear that Bush is the consummate Republican, but in fact he is not any better for the GOP than he is for the rest of the country. He's a crazy radical being used as a stalking horse by gigantic corporations.

Ender, what are "values", and how does Bush represent or protect them? Why did we invade Iraq? Was it successful, or at least worth the cost? What do you think are the Federal Government's fiscal responsibilities--its obligation to you and me, Joe and Jack Taxpayer? And, finally, do you think John Kerry, Howard Dean or Al Gore would have been worse presidents? Why?
 
 
---
12:20 / 13.02.05
And have you seen this?

That could possibly swing a few things for you, regardless of how many people think Mikey is an annoying being.

I did originally think that Ender was without any doubt, a joke suit. Now I'm starting to think that he's real.

I am open to discussion and questions, call me a glutton for punishment.

Please try to lose the impression that people here want to ridicule or inflict punishment on you! As long as you stay truthful, honest and open minded you'll shoot any potential flak down like it never existed in the first place and/or absorb some of the wisdom that's often contained in it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:37 / 13.02.05
I don't think it's about being laughed at, necessarily, Qalyn. It's about whether to dedicate time and emotional energy to interacting with somebody who may or may not have any unique identity. See the Lewin case. Of course, it's possible that reality is not a criterion for assessing somebody's worth on the Internet, but that's quite an involved question.
 
 
---
12:48 / 13.02.05
It's about whether to dedicate time and emotional energy to interacting with somebody who may or may not have any unique identity.

Haha, I've been quite nice to Ender for a while and reading that just made me realize what an utter tit I'd feel like if I found out that he was a joke suit.

I've got my guard up a little again now, I remember how gullible I can be at times.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
14:43 / 13.02.05
OK.

Taking you as a real-suit and not a joke-suit:

Rather than talking about it in Conversation, why not head on over to the Switchboard and refute some of the points there? I have to admit that while I know a number of conservatives, I don't understand how they reconcile their "small government staying out of people's lives" belief with the rampant government interferance and governmental growth of the Bush Administration. Add to that the almost self-satiric secrecy claims by the Bush Administration, I wonder how anyone who claims Jeffersonian views can support this obviously Hamiltonesque Administration can support their philosophical views.

But this part of the board is where we talk about silly things like unicycles and ninjas.

and I KNOW Haus is the one telling my neighbors about the redhead porn I have hidden under my bed...I didn't know he was conducting a whispering campaign against me as well...the bastage!
 
 
---
14:58 / 13.02.05
But this part of the board is where we talk about silly things like unicycles and ninjas.

< ninjasuit >
Ninjas are not silly.
< /ninjasuit >
 
 
Ender
17:33 / 13.02.05
I like Bush for exactly the reason Qalyn said. I voted for him because he has good public relations people, and great speech writers, even if he cant recite them all that well. I was embarrassed by the president during the debates. At the same time, what a great tactic, (if his intense stupidity was a ploy) because it provoked Kerry to be what I thought of as an intellectual bully, stealing thought candy from a baby.

I have been giving quiet thought to some of the allegations against him. Frankly I am afraid that if I look into them too much I will find him to be a fraud. Understand that I don’t want to be supportive of a false president, but I don’t know if I can handle losing faith and finding fault with a man I have advocated so strongly. Not yet, a weakness that I must overcome. I wont be doing any Bush promoting any time soon, not until his administration stops dodging the bullet on the accusations that guys like mike and that other guy who made the 911 documentary bring out against him.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:00 / 13.02.05
not until his administration stops dodging the bullet on the accusations that guys like mike and that other guy who made the 911 documentary bring out against him.

I feel you may be waiting a long time for that.

I'd second Solitaire Rose's suggestion of going down the Switchboard; avoid coming off like one of the Republican-promoting trolls that infest the net, say honestly "this is where I come from and this is what I believe" and people will be polite and reasonable and nice and stuff.

Qalyn: do you mean Republicans are not necessarily Lawful Evil? Or Neutral Evil? They might be Chaotic Neutral? That throws my compass out of whack, you know.
 
 
ibis the being
19:36 / 13.02.05
I was embarrassed by the president during the debates. At the same time, what a great tactic, (if his intense stupidity was a ploy) because it provoked Kerry to be what I thought of as an intellectual bully

I think this is a pretty common attitude among Bush supporters, and I'm completely dumbfounded by it. Rooting for the underdog is well & good in sports games or romantic comedies, but surely not in Presidential races? I get why charming naivete is a winning quality in a sitcom protagonist, but not why it's desirable in choosing the leader of the (now quite arguably) most powerful nation in the world.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
20:21 / 13.02.05
Frankly I am afraid that if I look into them too much I will find him to be a fraud. Understand that I don’t want to be supportive of a false president, but I don’t know if I can handle losing faith and finding fault with a man I have advocated so strongly.

Why not? When Clinton was caught, I was furious with him BECAUSE I had supported him. He had so much promice and could have done so much, and instead he sold us out to the Stock Market and his own libido.

And, if I may generalize without coming off as bashing you, it's the one thing about the modern Republican movement that I don't get: the inability to admit mistakes or accept changing. Bush went into office saying he was a small government man, and he would return the surplus because economic times were so good. Then, when the economy crashed, as it always does, he changed his reasoning for the tax cut. The reason was opposite, but the result was the same.

Now that we have proof that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq (and evidence is coming out that we knew this conclusively after 1998's Desert Fox attack), there seems to be no reprocussions, and no lessening in support by the hard core of Bush people.

So, if I may ask, not to be attacking but to help me understand, why would it be bad to say "Hm....he lied to me. That bastard."?
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
21:44 / 13.02.05
Fridge, I believe the party loyalists are generally Neutral Good. Democrats are Lawful Good. The politicians themselves are another story.

Haus, the "You're probably not real, so I'm not going to waste my time!" thing is an empty snark. If you don't want to waste your time, don't waste your time.

Ender, if you will only stop getting your news from cable networks, you'll be okay. Try the BBC, which I think probably has a website somewhere.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
22:22 / 13.02.05
Solitaire Rose:
why would it be bad to say "Hm....he lied to me. That bastard."?

Ulysses Grant was a supply sergeant in the Mexican War, in which Polk oversaw the annexation of Texas. A lot of people* disagreed with the war on grounds similar to our reasons for objecting to Iraq--that it was costly, immoral, and illegal. In his memoirs, Grant says that, while he disagreed with the war, he kept it to himself because you simply can't disagree with your commanding officer if you're in the army. I think a lot of Republicans see themselves as members of Bush's army in this Culture War everyone insists on.

*Not Walt Whitman--he was a vocal supporter.
 
 
Ender
23:25 / 13.02.05
You are two for two Qalyn.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
01:00 / 14.02.05
Mmmmm, batta-batta-batta suh-WING!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:09 / 14.02.05
Haus, the "You're probably not real, so I'm not going to waste my time!" thing is an empty snark. If you don't want to waste your time, don't waste your time.

Qalyn: As ever, I can only suggest that you read what I wrote. I was explaining, not presenting. That should be pretty clear to anyone with an ounce of sense, which you have, taking a moment, which it seems you did not. If you don't want to waste my time, don't waste my time.

Personally, I have no problem with believing that there are people out there like Ender. And, as I said (in the post just above) reality may not be a valid criterion for assessing the worth of a member of Barbelith. I would, however, suggest that Ender is identifying the wrong things as the reasons some may think he is a joke suit.

Meanwhile, back on the Bush: am I alone in thinking "he has great script writers and PR people" is a really odd reason to vote for a president? The scriptwriters and PR people are not, after all, going to make poilcy, or set taxes. Does it simply mean "I am not interested in politics, so I am going to think about politics once every four years, and decide who to vote for based on presentation"? If so, how can one identify as a conservative, or a Republican, or a Democrat?
 
 
Smoothly
08:52 / 14.02.05
He's a PRublican.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:16 / 14.02.05
My apologies, haus, I should've written:

If "you" don't want to waste "your" time, don't waste "your" time.

I didn't mean, you know, you. I meant Ganesh, actually. I suck at semantics! But my point is, as it's impossible for Ender to prove to Barbelith's satisfaction that he is a real boy--note that there are many, including myself, who don't quite believe in Xyu, even though he's posted pictures--mentioning it in answer to what-appears-to-be-an-honest-question is needlessly dismissive.

On Bush: There was... I think it was Ted Rall. There was a cartoon in the Village Voice before the election about the "progressive Republicans" who don't like anything on Bush's agenda, but vote for him because they will benefit financially, and how that's, like, evil and stuff. If you're that kind of Republican, Ender, I take it back. Totally Evil.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:50 / 14.02.05
Ah, I see, Qalyn. Gotcha. I'd agree that there's not a lot of point in worrying too much about whether people are "real" or not - if you're planning on falling in love with someone and travelling to another continent to be with them then it needs a bit more thought, but round these parts "I think you are a joke suit" tends to be sympatico with "and if you a real human being, you are one for whom I feel very little affection".
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
11:02 / 14.02.05
A distinction without a difference.
 
 
Ender
13:16 / 14.02.05
No affection for me? after being your bitch for the last year?! I have cooked and cleaned for you! and rubbed your stinky ass feet! Bastard!
 
 
w1rebaby
13:21 / 14.02.05
Ass feet?

Handy if you're running away from someone and fall on your backside I suppose.
 
 
Ganesh
13:30 / 14.02.05
I meant Ganesh, actually.

To clarify, then: not "afraid", not unduly wasting my time (keeping the word-count low, anyway). Merely answering the question asked.
 
 
Sean the frumious Bandersnatch
17:03 / 14.02.05
I don't think that you're a troll, Ender. I do think that, assuming you're a real person, you have incredibly thick skin/are a masochist. A lot of people treat you as an object of ridicule, and the fact that you keep coming back amazes me.


Let me see if I'm reading your support of Bush right- you like him because of his speechwriters and handlers, you suspect that he's in the wrong but don't want to admit it to yourself, and think that it's okay for the most powerful man in the world to either act stupid in a debate or actually be stupid?
 
 
Spaniel
17:22 / 14.02.05
It really is baffling, isn't it, Sean?

I hope to God he is a Joke suit. For his sake.
 
 
HCE
18:04 / 14.02.05
Even more frightening than the thought that people voted against Kerry because he came off as too smart is the fact that they feel comfortable admitting to it publicly.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
18:55 / 14.02.05
I am also a Republican, Ender. I felt much the same as you in the beginning of the W years. I eventually came to the realization that Bush is someone I can not support anymore. The realization made me feel angry and disheartened. I am a fiscal conservative and a moral liberal, and the fundamentalist bent that W used to secure his office really rankles.

I don't think you are a troll, I think you have either a strong masochistic streak; or cannot stand the thought of someone not liking you, so you keep coming back until they do like you.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:43 / 14.02.05
Ender, I seem to remember that in a previous thread you said something along the lines of "people slagging our president makes us seem like a weak country and I don't think we should be doing that". (Bear in mind, I could be totally wrong, or it might not have been you, but I think it was).

See, I think this is your problem. Because this person's job is to look after and represent you, you don't want to undermine that. Whereas I'd say that the fact he's supposed to be looking after and representing you makes it even more worthwhile, possibly even your duty, to call him on it.

Your loyalty is not a fixed thing. If your country's acting in ways you feel it shouldn't, then you should try to stop it.

See, I think you've got patriotism (as in "love of one's country, the wish for one's country to do stuff right so it can become more lovable and can justify my love for it") mixed up with patriotism (as in "my country right or wrong").

I, too, am a republican. But it means something slightly different in the UK.
 
 
Ender
05:07 / 15.02.05
Stoatie, you hit it on the head for me. I am a patriot, and I just want things in the U.S. to work out. I am a dreamer, a wisher, and an optimist, and I know, completely out of my mind to be this way.

I did say I like Bush because of his speech writers and PR people, I said it as a self deprecating joke. Because I know that I need to change my thoughts, I know that I am behind the times. Bush is the REAL jokesuit.

What I was saying earlier is that I am not ready to deal with the big change all at once. My political views, and my blind faith in Bush, defineD me to a large degree.

I need time to pick up the pieces of who I thought I was, and reshape my political views.

Did I that I am 22 years old? I am just coming out of my cocoon, Bush ran for president the first time when I was 18, I helped my grandpa stuff envelopes with pro-bush propaganda. I felt like I was part of something, does this make sense to anyone out there?

I am here. That is a step, and as I reshape my views (sometimes clumsily). I have been fumbling around awkwardly in the dark, and instead of flipping on a light, some of you (not very many) have been complete jerkoffs, getting off, on giving me shit.

Take a look at who you are, and really think, are you so damned great that you can look down on someone else, and crush my fingers as I grasp to the edge of a cliff?

I am trying to be a better person, I am gaining knowledge and experience every day. It is easy to call me a jokesuit, so easy to disregard me as a person altogether. I am that homeless guy outside the mall, holding a sign, “I will work for knowledge” and you,… you are those people that just walk by, holding your noses. If I am lucky enough, I might hear you speak to your friend as you pass, “Bums, fuckin trash, what is our city coming to?” don’t talk to him, don’t feed his starving mind with thought, fuckin jokesuit, Steve loving fudge packing bastard.

I am calling you out, you intellectual ejaculators; -I challenge you- to treat me like a human being. Be god damned decent for week, hell a day even, you might find that the view is better when you share it.

There, that is it. To those great people who have been able to give me hand now and again, even when that hand was one correcting me onto the right path, thank you.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
09:26 / 15.02.05
I think you're being a little paranoid, dude. It's not "our" job to educate your or be friends with you. I've never seen a "Will Work For Food" sign in real life.
 
 
ibis the being
12:21 / 15.02.05
Hey, listen - this will make you feel better. When I was a ninth grader, pre-Rebellious, my parents got me totally into Rush Limbaugh. In a school debate, I argued AGAINST ANIMAL RIGHTS. To be fair, they were assigned topics and someone had to argue that side. My dirty shameful secret is that I was totally into my argument, which was largely lifted from the pages of Limbaugh's latest hardcover.

I mean, toss the justification of the Iraq war about all you want, I argued against protecting little baby bunnies from torture! *Weeps.*

Everyone - okay, scratch that, many people - go through the process of sorting out who they really are, which includes the rather painstaking endeavor to reexamine things you thought you believed, but really just assumed or accepted. It's not at all unusual to be doing that at the age of twenty-two.
 
 
w1rebaby
14:15 / 15.02.05
I was a bit of a Tory at school. Then again, I was also a bit of an arrogant little tosser.
 
  

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