BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Alexander "Sasha" Shulgin and the legalization of MDMA

 
 
grant
16:53 / 10.02.05
I thought it might be interesting to have a discussion parallel to the cannabis one about MDMA.

I got the thought because I just got this email from Ethan Nadelmann of the Drug Policy Alliance:

I am pleased to invite you to a live audio web chat on Tuesday, February 22 at 3 PM PST / 6 PM EST with myself, Dr. Sasha Shulgin, the noted psychedelic chemist and pharmacologist, and his wife Ann Shulgin, the beloved writer and therapist. Dr. Shulgin, a former Dow research chemist, is well known for his creation and discovery of new psychoactive chemicals and for his promotion in the late 1970s and early 1980s of the use of MDMA in psychotherapy. Sasha and Ann Shulgin together authored and published the books PIHKAL: A Chemical Love Story and TIHKAL: The Continuation, detailing the synthesis of and their personal experience with hundreds of psychedelics.

The Shulgins will be online to address your questions on a range of topics from the "war on drugs" to the therapeutic use of MDMA. Please email questions@drugpolicy.org before February 22 to submit questions, and don't forget to bookmark the chat address!

When: Tuesday, February 22, 2005
3 PM PST / 6 PM EST
Where: http://www.drugpolicy.org/events/shulginchat



I've been a fan of Shulgin's ever since I read PIKHAL (Phenethylamines I Have Known And Loved -- the sequel is the same, but about Tryptamines).

He's fascinating guy, as the New York Times recently revealed....

There's a story he likes to tell about the past 100 years: "At the beginning of the 20th century, there were only two psychedelic compounds known to Western science: cannabis and mescaline. A little over 50 years later -- with LSD, psilocybin, psilocin, TMA, several compounds based on DMT and various other isomers -- the number was up to almost 20. By 2000, there were well over 200. So you see, the growth is exponential." When I asked him whether that meant that by 2050 we'll be up to 2,000, he smiled and said, "The way it's building up now, we may have well over that number."

The point is clear enough: the continuing explosion in options for chemical mind-manifestation is as natural as the passage of time. But what Shulgin's narrative leaves out is the fact that most of this supposedly inexorable diversification took place in a lab in his backyard. For 40 years, working in plain sight of the law and publishing his results, Shulgin has been a one-man psychopharmacological research sector. ( Timothy Leary called him one of the century's most important scientists. ) By Shulgin's own count, he has created nearly 200 psychedelic compounds, among them stimulants, depressants, aphrodisiacs, "empathogens," convulsants, drugs that alter hearing, drugs that slow one's sense of time, drugs that speed it up, drugs that trigger violent outbursts, drugs that deaden emotion -- in short, a veritable lexicon of tactile and emotional experience.


They also point out that research in the field seems to be expanding:

Now, however, near the end of his career, his faith in the potential of psychedelics has at least a chance at vindication. A little more than a month ago, the Food and Drug Administration approved a Harvard Medical School study looking at whether MDMA can alleviate the fear and anxiety of terminal cancer patients. And next month will mark a year since Michael Mithoefer, a psychiatrist in Charleston, S.C., started his study of Ecstasy-assisted therapy for post-traumatic stress disorder. At the same time, with somewhat less attention, studies at the Harbor-U.C.L.A. Medical Center and the University of Arizona, Tucson, have focused on the therapeutic potential of psilocybin ( the active ingredient in "magic mushrooms" ). It's far from a revolution, but it is an opening, and as both scientist and advocate, Shulgin has helped create it. If -- and it's a big "if" -- the results of the studies are promising enough, it might bring something like legitimacy to the Shulgin pharmacopoeia.



Anyway, I thought y'all would

a. like to know about the chat.

b. be interested in Shulgin as a dynamic personality -- people like these are how science progresses.

c. might want to discuss more about how MDMA could be made legal someday, what kind of applications you'd like to see for it, or even if it should be legalized at all....
 
 
Axolotl
18:18 / 10.02.05
I read some interviews with Shulgin in Daniel Pinchbeck' "Breaking Open the Head" which details Pinchbeck's research into entheogens and his "shamanic" journey. An excellent book, though I have problems with Pinchbeck's use of shamanism as a model for his drug use and other various minor points.
Grant - How did you find "PIKHAL"? The impression that I got was that was a chemists'/users' guide to Phenylethlamines. . Though I have an A-level in chemistry, my biology is sadly lacking and I wasn't sure how accessible it would be.
With regard to the legalisation or further uses of MDMA I have some doubts. While I have taken MDMA and had experiences that I would call near spiritual in nature (and danced my arse off) I also had a fairly major depressive incident that I think may well have been sparked by MDMA. Accordingly I feel MDMA has to be treated with a certain amount of caution for it is a very powerful drug. However I am all for the further investigation of possible uses for MDMA.
 
 
astrojax69
01:25 / 11.02.05
this conference in san fran in may will have much to say in this regard.

also, there is some interesting work by nicholas humphrey and allan snyder on the mind states of shamans when they executed cave art, relative to an autistic state... psychopharmacologies can be another avenue to access these states - i'd be interested in your chat, grant... (have to translate the times to oz zones...)
 
 
jeed
07:12 / 11.02.05
He's a hugely interesting character, I had a brief chat to him at the 'Exploring Consciousness' conference in Bath, UK, last year (just after he'd burned off Susan Blackmore...meme that .

He's a good fella though, and certainly dedicated, it was entertaining watching him stay one molecule ahead of the DEA, and he's certainly got balls testing these on himself. He's responsible for rediscovering MDMA, and synthesising 5-meo-dmt (nn-DMT's more dark and hardcore cousin), and the 2c-x family, amongst hundreds of others. I think what's most interesting, and certainly valuable is the extremely controlled way in which he tests these compounds, and the fact a) they're tested outside the environments which these chemicals would most often be ingested (ie. clubs), and b) the fact they're taken with an eye on the objective effects instead of 'i'm soooo wasted maaaan', is really useful when it comes to brandishing stats a the 'just say no' brigade, although he doesn't ignore the spiritual aspect.

PIHKAL, and TIHKAL are both worth a read...they're both split into a semi-fictional/autobiographical section with a few trip reports and, and another which is the pretty hardcore chemistry/biochemistry section: general synthesis and dosage information. They're not inaccessible to the interested reader...I'd recommend getting hold of them, you can get both the second parts online at the psychedelic library at erowid, but i think the first half of both of them are probably the most interesting.

http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/books_online.shtml

But i think the first half of both fo them are probably the most interesting.

Anyway...hope that helps. There's also quite a few studies on the use of MDMA in counselling terminally ill cancer patients, sufferers of PTSD (there's a study being set up at the minute in Palestine/Israel), and it was used in couples' psychotherapy before it was made illegal in the 80s, make sense. It's interesting to do it outside a club or party environment, and I'd certainly recommend using a small amount of MDMA at home with a partner...it opens interesting areas (fnarr)

J
 
 
grant
15:36 / 11.02.05
Yeah, the NYT article I link up there has a pretty good summary of PiKHAL. I haven't read the sequel -- laziness, mainly. But it's a memoir on one half with a second half that's a chemical handbook, detailing each chemical with diagrams, full names, basic "how to make" (for chemists, not home cookers), dosages, effects-at-dosage and general trip report excerpts.

The trip reports made the chemical half interesting to me -- other than that, it might as well have been an appendix for all I care. I'm sure an enthusiastic chemist would have the opposite reaction, reading the memoir part as a preface that grew too big for its boots.
 
 
astrojax69
19:52 / 28.02.05
i only caught just the last minutes of the streamed shulgins chat... what else did they say? how did it go, young grant??
 
 
KING FELIX
10:32 / 01.03.05
The stream is archived here
 
 
grant
12:06 / 01.03.05
I missed the chat -- awkward time for me -- but I'll listen to that archived link soon.
 
 
grant
20:49 / 01.03.05
The link on that page didn't work for me, for whatever reason, but I was able to pull this Real Media URL out of it, and it works fine.

SUMMARY/NOTES (feel free to skip this)

First reaction: Ethan Nadelmann really sounds like I'd expect somebody named Ethan Nadelmann to sound.

MDMA to treat anxiety? That's practically a no-brainer.

He sounds really sharp for an 80-something-year-old, knows lots of the research going on.

The government has allowed Iraq soldiers to enter a Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder study using MDMA. That's pretty cool. Go Doblin!

The miking on the Shulgins kinda sucks. No, it really sucks.

They cite the MDMA/amphetamine mix-up. Seems like that was a really big deal on the research-politics front.

The politics of research seems to be another key topic. High-ranking academics are scared to do the research they want to do because they rely on federal grant money.

Future of psychedelic research, Sasha says -- get an advanced science degree in an overlapping field, get post-doc with medical researcher, then get academic position and call your own shots. No one is using human subjects, but there are researchers out there (Rick Strassman gets a mention, along with other psychiatrists.)

On to the Brain's response to music & MDMA -- they just rave about raves. "We prefer classical -- the modern Russians." Hippies. Sasha links music to dropping of barriers to use in psychiatry.

On ODs
"I don't believe there is a threat of... death from MDMA on a large scale. There are individual idiosyncratic reactions."

Those darn coroners, blaming accidents under the influence or multiple drug overdoses on MDMA alone.

Hypnosis can retrigger MDMA mental states.

Sasha won't promote other legal highs for fear that they'll be synthesized & sold on the street.

Stories about MDMA curing chronic pain (based on releasing old psychological trauma). Leading back to old research on psychedelics in psychotherapy, usefulness at "releasing blockage" and increasing "warmness."

Ann: "MDMA is really not a psychedelic at all."

Allows you to love yourself, see your faults & problems "but also that you are a treasure. This part the MDMA experience is what liberates people."

There's a mention of MDMA possibly being used as a kind of soma (although not in those words exactly). The risk of escaping into the feeling of kindness, taking MDMA every week, raising the dosage and adding new drugs.

"It should be a very important experience that you think about for weeks and months and try to assimilate what happened.... Try and change patterns you saw to be negative.... Insight itself is terribly important; looking in without negative judgement."

Ethan: "Psychedelics are wasted on the young." OooOOooo, DAD!

Ann's a total hippie, and I think I'm in love with her. She mourns the waste from banning a potentially useful "spiritual tool" because of misuse... by teenagers who are unconsciously trying to destroy themselves. The poor dears.

Around the 30 minute mark on the nose, we veer off into ibogaine as addiction cure. Sasha finds ibogaine harsh, and thinks the researchers are using really high levels of the drugs, and it does work to sort of shock people out of the compulsion. Domestic (American) research doesn't use high enough doses. It's too harsh to be habit-forming itself.

Salvinorin and ketamine are similar in "forcing" people to examine themselves (at high doses, I think he means), but K can be addictive itself, so it's not the best candidate.

At 33 minutes... Onto 2CB, Sasha's favorite. It has “the museum level” of dosage, you can go to the museum and see why painters painted. Your “erotic sense” amplified, along with all senses. Deep response curve. 10 mg, walk around, 20 mg, you better stay home somewhere safe. Profound psychedlic, short-acting.

35 minutes -- discusses DIPT, which creates auditory distortions at lower-than-psychedelic levels. Things go out of tune, without any other effects. If you can stand the weird audio, it gets psychedelic at higher levels.

Scariest experience: Fear of getting stuck in blissful state, will this ever wear off -- set and setting. Could have been any psychedelic.

This leads to discussion of hospital rooms vs. natural settings for early (and ongoing) psychedelic experiments. How awful the sterility becomes.

Which leads to the importance of babysitters and/or shamans, and the growing "shaman underground" of folks who understand the psychedelic experience.

Which leads to ayahuasca, the "queen of psychedelics."
Apparently, court of New Mexico upheld right to use ayahuasca by members of the church. This is still being fought. Sasha says 5meoDMT+an MAOi = legal "pharmahuasca".

Sasha was involved in/inspired the creation of the law banning analogs of scheduled materials. He hates the phrase "substantially similar" used to include various substances under that umbrella of illegalism.

Drug prohibition = prohibition of education -- an issue of control over your own body & mind. Other than driving (endangering others), there should be no prohibition.

%Well, that attitude is a surprise.%

50 minute mark:

The first amendment and the 10th amendment are Sasha's favorites. Not legalization, not decriminalization, but "repeal" of federal drug laws. It's a state matter, leave it to the people.

52 minutes:
Terence McKenna, on the evolutionary plus for psychedelics -- mushrooms dilate pupils, you climb a tree on shrooms, you see where the food (animals, fruit) is better than the straight hunters.


Sasha is now writing a Psychedelic Merck Index, a "massive project" he needs to get out of the way. After that, he plans a third book to follow PiKHAL and TiKHAL, called "the third book" for now.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:25 / 08.03.05
Thanks heaps, Grant for that and this thread. Woolly atm, but Phyrephox, just to say that the 'memoir' part certainly is utterly aceessible to anyone, and a wonderful read.

I loved PIHKAL, it sets Shulgin's research firmly in the times in which he was doing it/the vast change in attitude to his work. He is a wonderful demonstration of what good embedded/participant observeration can do.

In that, in PIHKAL we hear about his own first experiences with the various 'pyschedelics' that he synthesises, and then about his friends, broadening out into clinical applications and trials.

All these are linked/his awareness of his varying connections to the experiences is foregrounded usefully but he's very able (perhaps slighty over-able - discussions of their friends listening to Mozart are opposed to street uses, I understand his point about lack of regulation but he does at times use aesthetics to prove this point.) to distinguish between different types of use and to not allow personal experience to waylay analysis.

It's a difficult trick, and one he generally manages admirably

He's also probably slightly mad and very brave(as per above, S & A tested everything on themselves first)

Back later with thoughts on MDMA, but I'm very excited about those clinical/academic chinks in the War On Drugs armour. I think someone should at least be able to examine/continue Shulgin's work on the potential benefits of MDMA and the other 'empathogens' which he pioneered.
 
 
Mister Snee
14:50 / 14.03.05
I found Pihkal Book 1 online somewhere. It was a semi-autobiographical thing by Ann and Sasha Shulgin (each wrote a few chapters) and on the whole, it was emotional and rewarding. Inspirational and life-affirmin'. You know? Feel-good. w/ drugs!

Book 2 of both Pihkal and Tihkal are on erowid.org and -that- is a user's/chemist's field guide. But it's also a vault of historical and experimental information of special interest. The extensions & commentary are rewarding and educational.

See? Both books were Rewarding.

Except Book 1 of Tihkal that I've not read.

Shulgin is an excellent man and MDMA is an exceptional grace. ^-^
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
21:58 / 31.03.05
A bit of a tangent from the main thrust of the thread.

Thursday February 17, 2005 The Guardian

Ecstasy trials for combat stress.

American soldiers traumatised by fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are to be offered the drug ecstasy to help free them of flashbacks and recurring nightmares.

The US food and drug administration has given the go-ahead for the soldiers to be included in an experiment to see if MDMA, the active ingredient in ecstasy, can treat post-traumatic stress disorder.
 
  
Add Your Reply