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Thomas Pynchon, result of gene project fusing F. Scott Fitzgerald and A. Crowley.

 
 
Digital Hermes
20:42 / 09.02.05
Because I have a tendency to read the books that everyone says are impossible, I'm hip deep in V by Pynchon, and slogging my way through Joyce's Finnegans Wake. I've got Gravity's Rainbow under my belt, though I can't say I understood the whole thing, and it'll require re-reading.

If there are any Pynchon aficionados out there, begin yapping, but the floor is also open to those who seem drawn to monstrously-sized 'novels' (more like epics) by those such as D.F. Wallace, or N. Stephenson. (Or whoever else fits under this large, vague, umbrella shape.)
 
 
Alex's Grandma
01:14 / 10.02.05
As far as I know ( having not read Mason & Dixon, )Gravity's Rainbow is far and away Pynchon's most experimental novel, at least in terms of the language, so if you've got that in the bag already everything else should be a breeze, I'd have thought. Reading it ten years ago, getting to the end of Gravity's Rainbow felt a lot like completing the London marathon ( or so I'd imagine - worth it, but you wouldn't necessarily rush out and do the whole thing again, ) whereas before and after he's a bit more straightforward.

He's arguably the only really significant novelist to have directly emerged from the US Sixties counter-culture, as opposed to America in the Sixties generally - I've no idea how involved in it he actually was, but from V in 1961, through The Crying Of Lot 49 in 1966 to Gravity's Rainbow published in 1973, with Vineland debatably as the Eighties coda, he seemed to address what was going in psychedelic America ( and I know that sounds like an outtake from The Simpsons hippy episode, and I know it's a horrible phrase, but still, ) with all it's contradictions, the odd combination of Old West nostalgia, contemporary paranoia, and mixed hope and dread for the possible future better than anyone else did, even though ostensibly those weren't always the years he was actually writing about.

As far as 'whoever else fits under this large, vague umbrella shape' category I'd go for John Cowper Powys, who wrote long strange novels about rural bohemia in Thirties England from a contemporary standpoint ( A Glastonbury Romance being the best of the bunch, ) and Mother London by Michael Moorcock, which has got very little to do with teh Elric or Jerry Cornelius novels, and is a vaguely UK take on a lot of Pynchon's themes, especially those in Vineland.
 
 
Digital Hermes
01:24 / 10.02.05
This Mother London novel, can you tell me any more? Is it trying to encapsulate England and London as Pynchon may have done in V, et al?

It sounds like something in a psycho-geographical sense, discussing London almost as a character of the story.

In terms of Pynchon's breadth, this is why I feel he's so often compared to Joyce, who found a way to communicate something to everybody, through the lens of a very specific Irishman. Yet he's also been compared to Burroughs, in terms of sur-reality (is that a word?) in the narrative, taking a step away from objective realism.

One might consider instead that this is a psychological realism, in that we all can relate to his worlds and his words, though the story itself is not to be believed.

Thoughts?
 
 
Benny the Ball
17:40 / 12.02.05
I didn't enjoy Crying of Lot 49 enough to pick up the copy of V that I have had on the shelf for a while. But I'm on a good N. Stephenson trip at the moment, having just finished Quicksilver and loved it completely (and half read Cryptonomicon, but put it on hold until I finish the Baroque Cycle).
Last year I read Ulysses while working abroad on a job where nobody spoke English - wasn't sure if I enjoyed it too much, there are certainly great bits, but I'm glad I did read it. Also love Russian mostrous sized novels. But sure I will get back to Pynchon some day, when the book pile dwindles.
 
 
Mistoffelees
13:02 / 13.02.05

I started GR three times and never finished. For all those of you, who want to try again, look at this site, it´s supposed to make the book more understandable:

http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/gravity/index.html

http://www.hyperarts.com/pynchon/index.html

Anyway, at least I managed to read V and Vineland all the way through (Vineland even two times, those books are not so convoluted, more "straightforward").
 
 
sine
13:46 / 15.02.05
I love the big-ass sprawling novel. I get excited about page counts over 1000. To me, it means: "Oh boy! A real, meaty read, instead of something I'll finish this afternoon. Calloo! Callay!"

I loved 49 and V, and when I first read Gravity's Rainbow I think scales fell off my eyes as a writer (misogynist undertones notwithstanding)- but I cannot for the life of me read Mason & Dixon. I try. I really do. I start it, and get a few pages in and then - that's it. It goes back on the shelf. I can't seem to get over the hump. I dunno, did anyone else have this problem?

On the other hand, though I have read some of his stuff, just seeing DFW's author photo makes me want to punch him in the face. Go figure.
 
 
Mistoffelees
14:19 / 15.02.05
I have the exact same problem with m&d. I got the book as a birthday gift years ago, I tried many times, and last time I stopped where they meet a talking dog (page 20).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:37 / 15.02.05
My first attempt to read M&D failed miserably about 100 pages in... second time round I loved it.

The only one I've not read, strangely enough, is V... I think I may start that tonight, actually.

I leapt right in at the deep end and started with Gravity's Rainbow... it was one of those strange books which I THOUGHT I understood, then read two different sets of notes on it, both of which read as if they'd been reading a differnt book, not only from me, but from each other. It's mostly the set-pieces I remember- the interminable, socially-awkward sweet-eating scene, the immortal light bulb...

Vineland ruled, largely because Godzilla's (nearly) in it, and that wasn't something I was expecting...

Pynchon's ace. He has to write something soon, cos he must be about a million by now, and I want MORE!!!

Slow Learner (early short stories) makes an interesting read- you get some idea (only some, mind) how he evolved into this ultra-complex book-writing beast.

My only problem with him is his tendency to burst into song. I don't know WHY this jars so much with me, given all the other High Weirdness that infests his pages, but it does. I loved the talking dog, until it started singing.
 
 
Digital Hermes
17:48 / 18.02.05
I actually jumped right in with Gravity's Rainbow, too, mostly because Alan Moore had mentioned it, and I'm a fiend for anything that guy writes. I was amazed but lost, and could never find a flow for the book. Sections would blow my mind, but I couldn't hold onto the narrative. Ultimately, I wanted the book to be about Pirate Prentice, the first character we meet. That said, I reconciled myself and proceeded to enjoy it.

Since then, I decided to start from the beginning of his work. I've read Slow Learner, and am halfway through V. I've been finding these earlier works have the Pynchon flair I've enjoyed, without the sprawling nature. That said, I figure they're going to give me tools to get into GR a bit better when I come up to it again.

Has anyone got through much of Neal Stephenson's work? He almost seems like a Pynchonoid whose slipping in through the sci-fi door, but I've never read him. Any opinions out there?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
04:07 / 19.02.05
I'm kind of behind on Stephenson (I'm waiting for a chance to tackle the trilogy, whose name I forget, all in one go)- I've read "Snow Crash" and "Cryptonomicon", largely because reviewers always name-checked Pynchon while discussing them. He does have a certain Pynchonesque quality- partly because, yes, they're big and sprawling, but the similarity that gets me most is they seem both to have a very similar sort of playfulness to them. Also worth mentioning at this point is William T Vollmann's "You Bright And Risen Angels" (which to my shame I have yet to finish), which also has a similar feel, although I got a slight sense that he was being a little too self-consciously Pynchony in that one. Doesn't spoil the book at all, though.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:00 / 19.02.05
This Mother London novel, can you tell me any more ?

Well I'll try. I don't have my copy to hand unfortunately, and my memory these days is frankly a disgrace, but yeah, as set around about five or six main characters ( an actor, a journalist, a gangster, a coma victim and a couple of others, ) it's basically a sort of fictional history of London subculture from the Blitz through to the Sixties at least, and possibly taking in the start of the Thatcher years, although I'm a bit sketchy on that. It would make sense if it did though ( and on reflection it must do, ) seeing as the book's a kind of elegy for what Moorcock seems to see as on the one hand a quite dull, but on the other great city where there were all sorts of possibilities if you knew where to look. There's an excellent, if not key, scene, for example, where a couple of the characters go on a hunt for, er, power plants in the Royal Botanic Gardens, the gag being that you as the reader know exactly what's going on, but that given the time it's set in ( something like 1952 ? ) the guards and other visitors have simply no concept. It reminds in parts of the section in Gravity's Rainbow where Slothrop's wandering round Europe just after the War's finished and there's a sense that almost anything can happen because this huge weight's just been lifted, and there hasn't been time for a new one to replace it. There's that same kind of delight in chaotic times.

It's more 'realistic' than Pynchon though, there are no talking rats, dogs or anything else ( or at least I don't think there are anyway, ) and there aren't any songs ( which I'd agree are a bit of a drag - you tend to think Tom, just record them for God's sake, if you must, ) so I'd say that while it's not sadder and darker exactly, it does pack more of an emotional punch.

And I have to go out now, so 'to be continued...' I s'pose.
 
 
Digital Hermes
04:25 / 01.03.05
I look forward to hearing more on the 'Mother London' front!

Recently, a friend asked me to describe reading Pynchon, describe why I enjoyed it so much. After floundering and feeling like a moron for a little while, I jsut started thinking about what makes his writing compelling while reading it. It's not the length, or complexity, it's the yearning to come as close as possible to describing the state of our world. It's when, much like Joyce does with old Leo Bloom, Pychon's characters are described free of the gloss of romance, wistfullness, or irony. When we see people, warts and all, as art, while being described, artfully.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
00:43 / 02.03.05
Failed to read Gravity's Rainbow a few of times, needed to devote a lot more time.

...

Thomas Pynchon. Is it O.K. to be a Luddite?
New York Times Book Review 28 Oct 1984


Except maybe for Brainy Smurf, it's hard to imagine anybody these days wanting to be called a literary intellectual, though it doesn't sound so bad if you broaden the labeling to, say, "people who read and think." Being called a Luddite is another matter. It brings up questions such as, Is there something about reading and thinking that would cause or predispose a person to turn Luddite? Is It O.K. to be a Luddite? And come to think of it, what is a Luddite, anyway?
 
 
buttergun
18:17 / 18.08.05
On the Stephenson front...

He's pretty good, but a little full of himself. I've read all his books except for the Baroque trilogy, which I read the first volume of, but just couldn't be bothered to finish. Who knows, maybe someday.

First book of his I read was Snow Crash, shortly after it was published. Great book! Reviewers at the time were already comparing him to Pynchon, "Vineland" in particular. One thing very Pynchonesque about Stephenson is the goofy names he gives his characters. Snow Crash has the best of them all: Hiro Protagonist. From what I recall, this book reads very much like Pynchon writing a cyperpunkish novel.

The Big U, Stephenson's first novel, was recently reprinted. It's probably even more Pynchonesque. It used to be impossible to find; I had to get it from the library back in '97. More goofy, Pynchonesque names (Casimir Radon, Fred Fine, Yllas Freedperson, etc), and more of a satire than sci-fi. Only sci-fi angle it gets into is in the end, when the campus breaks out into an actual war.

But of course (barring the Baroque trilogy, as I haven't read it), Stephenson's most Pynchonesque book is Cryptonomicon, which I half-loved, half-hated. Funny aside -- after I read the book, I loaned it to a friend. He stuck through it till the end, then gave it back and said, I quote: "Don't ever give me another book by this motherfucker again." It seems that Stephenson's over-detail and obvious love of his own way with words just set my friend off. But yeah, large parts of Crypto just scream "I want this to be like Gravity's Raimbow!" and it can really annoy. I read somewhere once where a reviewer said Stephenson should've just published the WW2 parts with the Marine, Bobby Shaftoe. Not sure I agree, but I can see their point. Some of the book's a bit too much, with trivial details that mean nothing in the long run -- how to eat Cap'n Crunch cereal, a very long email written by the friend of one of the main characters, and lots of math problems. In fact, I saw an interview with Stephenson where he said most readers could easily skip this stuff, and still enjoy the book. So why'd you put it in there, Neal?

The Baroque trilogy seems even more Pynchonesque, just judging from the two hundred pages I read of the first volume. But that far in, I was already burned out -- couldn't imagine sticking with this overwhelming and overweighty prose for another several hundred pages.

The best Pynchonesque book out there is by Paul di Fillipo, it was published in 1997, and it's titled "Ciphers."
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
07:52 / 19.08.05
Ooh! We love Di Filippo round Canty's way. Can't wait for his run on the revived TOP TEN, but that's one for the Comics forum. Anything more you can tell us about this "Ciphers", buttergun?
 
 
buttergun
13:59 / 19.08.05
Ask and you shall receive, Canty -- just wrote up an ultra-long review/background for Ciphers here on Barbelith, right

HERE.
 
 
buttergun
14:06 / 22.08.05
In the GR department -- was at a local used bookstore this weekend, and found a near-mint copy of the Picador version of Gravity's Rainbow, with the bizarre cover. Pretty good find, especially when you consider I live in Dallas, Texas -- that book made a hell of a trip! Plus it was really cheap, under $5 US. I like the cover a lot, in fact of all the covers, it probably does the best job of summing up the novel:

Picador Cover
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
16:06 / 22.08.05
I read GR on a dare with myself.

same with Ulyssees

GR sent me down a long convoluted path of washing in and out of understanding (if the giant Adenoid that ate London didn't set the tone early on...)

Definitely didn't understand chunks of it. But I love Pynchon's way of taking characters who have their own acceptable/understandable quirkiness, throwing them together in, say, the Hotel Hermann Goering, and unleashing them on one another. The strangeness compounds itself until something like Tyrone Slothrop shows up disguised as Rocket Man. It manages to build the absurd into something chaotic, with serious consequence.

It is a beautiful treatise on paranoia.

Mason & Dixon was slow going for me. I like the bits about the Gloucester octuple and the duck.

V makes me squirm everytime: the nose job.This may very well be my favourite by Pynchon.

as for huge, sprawling novels:
The Malazan Book of the Fallen Series by Stephen Erikson. So far, he's got six novels, each over 1000 pages, in this series. It's incredible in scope - the writing's OK, but the world is rich, the cultures thorough, and the timeline consistent.

but it ain't James Joyce.

Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace

the infinite jest is on anyone who reads all the endnotes.

It by Stephen King
It's big. It's pulp. It's sprawling.

Hopscotch by Juan Cortazar
Big and huge, with alternate chapter orders in which to read it. hop hop.

then there's all those Richardson novels.

ta
tenix
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
14:54 / 24.08.05
Pynchon's superpower is the uncanny ability he has to stay out of the public eye. with all the Interweb and TV and digital cameras in people's eyeglasses, it's a wonder he's managed to avoid having his image captured.

even Salman Rushdie made public appearances while he was targeted.

speaking of which, Midnight's Children as a big, sprawling novel. Favourite bit: when the narrator extolls the virtues of manure, as it is the meaning of his wife's name, in order to appease her from her scolding him.

ta
tenix
 
 
astrojax69
01:12 / 08.09.05
some others have also had dramas reading mason and dixon. don't know what it is - when i do find the right headspace to read it, i love it and it makes explicit and wonderfully funny sense (he is surely one of the great humourists writing at the moment, no?) but i have stalled a hundred or so pages in and have 'been reading' it (ie it sits in my pile by my bed, one of anything up to twenty three books) for about eighteen months or more now.

am reading 'ulysses' at the moment, though. wow, that is a fantastic book - so full and living and impossible to follow but impossible to put down. that man's brain! his poetry and music of language! wow!


back on pynchon, i recommend anyone who has not read him to start on slow learner, if they can. but i think the way to deal with him is to plough on and let it filter in, then re-read chunks here and there and maybe reread the whole thing later. worked for me with all his other books... mason and dixon though. what is that?

but why does he not have a nobel..; what are they waiting for??
 
 
Mistoffelees
09:43 / 08.09.05
but why does he not have a nobel..; what are they waiting for??

I guess, they´re afraid, he won´t show up for the prize and his speech. He´s rumoured to be reclusive.

And the USA won 11 times since 1930. Maybe the committee thinks, they had their fair share.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
05:22 / 26.09.05
I've just begun reading V, so I'll await nosejobs with anticipation.

I'm liking it a lot, though.
 
 
nyarlathotep's shoe horn
14:18 / 26.09.05
with a protagonist named Benny Profane, what's not to love?

ta
tenix
 
 
buttergun
17:33 / 26.09.05
V. is a lot of fun. I think the only portion I didn't like was the "autobiography from Malta" section, a third of the way into the book, that Stencil reads. A bit too much, and went on for a bit too long.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:15 / 08.05.07
I'm well into V. by now, and I'm finding that the prose reads very fluidly but every time I think about it or get to a new chapter, I realize I'm not as far as I thought. At times, the novel seems to grow.

Something a friend said when were discussing the book, particularly Stencil's "quick change" chapter, is that Pynchon seems to move along through the story dropping oval capulses of description that don't feel as strongly connected to what's happening and when mired in them it seems easy to lose track of what's happening in the story's "present."

Stencil's permutations of personality intrigue me, but I'm ultimately finding that Rachel Owlglass and Victoria Wren intrigue me more (particularly Victoria in the scene with the conversing Egyptologists), and Benny Profane seems far away right now. Wondering when I'll see him next.
 
 
Digital Hermes
18:36 / 28.05.07
I've just re-dived into Gravity's Rainbow. I read Slow Learner, V, and The Crying of Lot 49, now reading him in order of progression, and boy, does it inform you're reading 'techniques' when approaching Pynchonoid writing.

After a novel of digression and re-integration like V, and with the magical realism of Lot 49, I was able to approach GR with a more tempered mind, instead of being overwhelmed by all the styles and informations that wash over you. What I find rewarding now is 'close reading' in which you can't really skip a word, which slows you down, but on the other hand, it's so beautiful you won't want to. (In more prosaic novels and stories, I can often skim-read, getting all of it, but without attention paid to each word. Pynchon requires your whole brain...)

I mused to my girlfriend the other night, that Pynchon's works, and GR in partiuclar, could be considered a titanically large poem, just due to how so much of the book rings when spoken aloud.

Off the top of my head, without the book at hand for reference:
"A million bureaucrats are dilligently plotting death, and some of them even know it..."
 
  
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