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MirrorMask: Gaiman/McKean Film

 
  

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*
04:42 / 07.02.05
I just saw this at the Sarasota Film Festival. It was the prettiest film I've ever seen, without a doubt. Critics say the plot is the weakest point, but that's not very weak all the same-- there's not much to it, no; but if it were anything less vague than the archetypal, there would have been no room for the great acting and of course the beautiful, beautiful art. There was a good balance of humorous whimsy and dark whimsy. The sound design was superb as well. And now I know that sphinxes are the size of housecats and eat books, or people if the former are not available, and that books will return themselves to the Central Library if you yell at them and make them feel unloved.

Press Release
Official Site
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:20 / 07.02.05
Oh good. It's whimsical. I was really hoping it would be whimsical.

Is there by any chance a dark undertone as well? If there is, I might just come.
 
 
Ganesh
12:52 / 07.02.05
And if there are goths in top hats with crows' wings on them, well, bonus.
 
 
*
14:48 / 07.02.05
Sadly, no goths. I saw it with a couple of punks and a theatre full of old people. Or did you mean in the film?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:04 / 07.02.05
Don't be ridiculous. Goths in a Noel Gaiman film? that's crazy talk.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:44 / 07.02.05
here we go again...passive aggressive gaiman hating...

who cares about gaiman? this is a mckean movie! yay!
 
 
Ganesh
21:27 / 07.02.05
My apologies. Allow me to rephrase myself in a more actively aggressive manner:

And if there are goths in top hats with crows' wings on them, well, that'll be predictably, irritatingly, twee.
 
 
*
21:56 / 07.02.05
Is everyone done being too radikul and revalushunnarry to risk being caught getting excited about anything with Gaiman's name on it, so your friends don't think you're one of those black-clad Morpheus-worshipping pansies who wank over their Sandman issues every night? Wouldn't want that-- they might call us nasty names. Rather run the risk of missing out on something really good than have someone call us a nasty name.

No goths in top hats with crows' wings. Hardly any goths at all. Just the evil queen, who of course looks "goffik" being as she's a fairytale evil queen.

And yes. This is not a Gaiman wank-job. The star of the show is Dave McKean and the 18 animators who worked with him on it, supported by the fine actors, and Gaiman knows it, no matter what his press-releases say.

Sorry that I have utterly failed to convey to anyone that this is worthwhile. I'm not a film student, and I haven't ventured over to barbelith for a long time, so perhaps I am failing to speak fluent enough cool to get my point across. The film blew me away, and I was never a drooling Sandman fanatic-- although I have always liked McKean's art.

I do feel bad for you if you are all too radikul to see this. It won't change your opinion of Gaiman, never fear. But it would be a shame to miss it just because you're afraid of shrinking your penis or losing 'lith points.
 
 
Ganesh
22:07 / 07.02.05
Yes, you've got me there. Much of my self-esteem is tied up in appearing "radikul", hence my inability to fully express how much I haven't loved Gaiman's work in film and television to date.

On a less snide note - in the hope of eliciting a response which also isn't snide - it's all very well pulling the "Gaiman haterzz" card, but the fact that the first post in this thread extols as virtues those aspects of Gaiman's work which actively irritate me (the whimsy, principally), it's perhaps not too difficult to see why I'm dubious about the thread-starter's glowing review of MirrorMask.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:19 / 07.02.05
Is there by any chance a dark undertone as well ? If there is, I might just come

I was thinking of asking if I could be invited along too, to watch the movie.

It was only then that I realised...
 
 
*
03:45 / 08.02.05
Touch. I chalk that up to my extreme tiredness and my continuing failure to rightly express why I liked that film. Anyway, I did; I'm not sure whether you would; if you don't it's not because there's anything objectively wrong with it but because it's not to your taste. Because it was really well put together in my opinion.

I hope you did not find my retaliatory snarkiness too irritating.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
04:20 / 08.02.05
McKean rules. That's all I gotta say. Buy the ticket, steal your friend's popcorn when they aren't looking, rent the digital video disc, buy the digital video disc, McKean rules.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:06 / 08.02.05
Is everyone done being too radikul and revalushunnarry to risk being caught getting excited about anything with Gaiman's name on it, so your friends don't think you're one of those black-clad Morpheus-worshipping pansies who wank over their Sandman issues every night? Wouldn't want that-- they might call us nasty names. Rather run the risk of missing out on something really good than have someone call us a nasty name.

It is possible not to want to see a Noel Gaiman film not because you are secretly ashamed of how much you love Noel Gaiman, but simply because you do not love Noel Gaiman, especially when he is getting another gothy child-woman to utter mysterious but whimsical comments.

So, you have apologised for telling us that the only argument for not coming at the very thought of a whimsy-whimsy double whimsy whammy is some sort of panic at the depth of our feelings for Noel, then gone on to say:

if you don't (like it) it's not because there's anything objectively wrong with it but because it's not to your taste

*Classic* statement. So, you believe, objectively, that Mirrormask is perfect? That's cool, but could we get a bit more? For example, what is the acting like, apart from great? Characterisation? Script? Most importantly, is it worth watching if one has already seen Labyrinth? How, for those of us who have not seen it, do McKean's visuals work? How do they look?
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
12:31 / 08.02.05
what I don't understand is the need for someone who clearly is NOT excited about something to come into a topic and start making fun of it? The original poster was clearly excited about something and wanted to share with some people who may be excited about it as well? where's the harm in that?

If the naysayers here had actually SEEN the film in question, and had actual problems (other than Gaiman's name on it) with the actual film, that's one thing. But it's just automatically assumed it's gonna be goth and dark and full of english fairy witticisms or something...

for the record, that was what was actually asked for by Henson's. It's suppose to be a follow-up film to Dark Crystal and Labyrinth. that was what the project was initially started as.

don't see it if you don't like the people involved.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:44 / 08.02.05
But it's just automatically assumed it's gonna be goth and dark and full of english fairy witticisms or something...

I'm not sure what your objection is to this line of reasoning.

I mean, surely the above is a perfectly reasonable assumption, given the track records of both Gaiman and McKean, together and separately, in comics, children's books (Coraline et cetera) and in film/TV (Neverwhere, for instance, though McKean only did the opening credits on that one).

It's what they do. It's their brand.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:53 / 08.02.05
Actually, Keith, I was involved in the making of Mirrormask, so I feel I have some right to take an interest in the quality of the finished product. If you'd like to talk about the finished product, please feel free to do so, but I'm not sure what you're adding by talking about me and Ganesh except the charmingly old-fashioned view that if you have anythng other than an uncritically gushing opinion of something that you, Keith, like then you shouldn't be allowed to express it..

So. Do you actually have anything of use to say about the film apart from "it's great, buy it?" Do you have any mechanism for expressing liking something apart from collecting it? Are you other than a collector?

But it's just automatically assumed it's gonna be goth and dark and full of english fairy witticisms or something...

No, you twit. It is manually assumed so as a combination of the experience of the filming, the plot, the fact that it is being written by Noel Gaiman, and the write-up so far's description of it as primarily made up of whimsy, light and dark.

for the record, that was what was actually asked for by Henson's. It's suppose to be a follow-up film to Dark Crystal and Labyrinth. that was what the project was initially started as.

Yes. I know. Hence the question, which I was hoping to be answered.

So, once again for the hard of nuance. My experience of Noel Gaiman's writing for comics, books and television suggests that there is a danger that once again his talents as a writer may be swamped by fan-pleasing, cloying whimsy and gothy childwomen who are wise beyond their years and yet also just a bit kooky. Gentlething Entity's review, sparing as it did little time for plot, characterisation, script, acting or the things that might usually be mentioned in the discussion of a film rather than a meeting of the Eltingville Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction and Role-Playing Games Society, did little to allay those fears.

Therefore, does anyone have a critical opinion of this film involving actual critical tools?

Further, rather than telling me how magical and wonderful Dave McKean's artwork is, and that I should buy the DVD, could somebody give me an idea of what it actually looks like? I understand that he drew over the cels of the film stock. How does this look? Is it comparable, for example, with Ralph Bakshi's Lord of the Rings?

And finally, is it as good as Labyrinth?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:15 / 08.02.05
Jack: I was thinking mainly of Gaiman rather than McKean - admittedly, Gaiman/McKean collaborations have tended towards the gothic, but McKean has always been following a brief - which is, by the way, why it seems a tad unfair on both Dave McKean and Noel to suggest that this is really all about the McKean...
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
13:43 / 08.02.05
haus, I'm a little confused. you were involved in the making of the film, but haven't seen it and don't know what mckean's process was? could you elaborate on this?

and "twit?" really? my statements make me a twit in your eyes? Drat.

i think you are under the impression that I think Gaiman is infallible. Which really isn't true. I like him, but I don't think he is instantly spectacular or consistently interesting. I agree with your assessment that he tends toward the same pandering style that made him famous.

my whole issue in this discussion is that, from what i can tell, no one here except for the original poster (sorry, can't remember name) has seen this finished film. and they were excited about it and liked it. What's wrong with that?
 
 
*
14:16 / 08.02.05
especially when he is getting another gothy child-woman to utter mysterious but whimsical comments.

I may be gothy, and possibly a youngster, but I'm not a woman. Just wanted to make that clear.

So, you have apologised for telling us that the only argument for not coming at the very thought of a whimsy-whimsy double whimsy whammy is some sort of panic at the depth of our feelings for Noel

Yes. Because I hate saying shit like that but it seemed like it might be an effective tool. That is, most of the respondents were being snarky and mismatching so I wildly overexaggerated snarky to see if anyone might get civilized in response.

So, you believe, objectively, that Mirrormask is perfect?

No. I believe that objectivity has limited utility in critiquing art and film, and that utility, limited though it be, is certainly not served by dismissing out of hand everything which might be described as whimsical or dark by those poor fools with no other vocabulary with which to describe something they are, at present, excited about. Not liking things which can be described as whimsical is certainly valid, but it's not objective; therefore my comment.

I hope very much that someone with a head for critiquing film does offer a review of MirrorMask in this thread; that would fulfill my purpose in starting it (besides to gush about something I was excited about, and my evident masochistic tendencies in ever, ever talking about something I just simply LIKE on 'lith).

Okay. Here's what I thought was effective about the movie.

I actually liked that the plot was really simple and we'd seen it all before. It's a fairytale. All fairytales are basically alike. Since the point of the movie is for it to be a fairytale, I couldn't expect any radical departures from the hero quest/vision theme. It also gets Neil neatly out of the way so the artists can work-- if he'd tried to do anything original it would have left more Gaimanism all over.

The lead is pretty good. I think the actor is convincing in portraying the character exactly as she is meant to be portrayed. (If you despise the "child-woman" portion as much as the "gothy", you'll probably hate her, so nevermind all this. She's a female teenager, which I think is the definition of child-woman.) She is much less hateable than that brat in Labyrinth, that's for damn sure. The acting in general departs from realism, of course, while the action takes place in the dream-world. I didn't have a problem with this; it didn't interrupt the experience for me.

McKean's visuals are, of course, what sold me. It is most likely do to my inexperience, but on first watching I couldn't tell what was his animation and what was puppetry. Of course, it didn't occur to me to look. The animation blends seamlessly with the actual footage, more so than his usual photomanipulation work-- thank the hordes of animators for that, probably.

I found the script to be pretty good. The dialogue that is supposed to be believable is believable, and the dialogue that is supposed to be surreal is appropriately surreal.

What I thought was ineffective:

I don't like the uncritical use of duality. I realize that Gaiman's use of this trope is meant to represent it AS a trope; I still think he could have done more with that.

The characters in the dream world are archetypes. Again. They're supposed to be. But the one character who is supposed to depart from the archetype isn't really; he's acting out a different archetype. There's probably a point to that, though.

One of the characters at one point sees a future action of his and its consequences. Later, he departs from that action as a result of having seen its consequences. This happens in a split second. I was about to say I'd rather have seen this slightly more obvious, but then I realized I wouldn't. Forget that last thing then.

The reason why I was suggesting that this movie is all about McKean is because I think he put more work into it than Gaiman did; I think Gaiman wrote himself into the background a little by making the plot a simple fairytale (which, again, is what Henson asked for) and by keeping his Gaiman flourishes to a minimum. For instance, most of the movie takes place in dreams, but never once does anyone even approximating the Endless show up. Isn't that nice to know? McKean and the animators worked for months before they had a completed shot. So, it sounds to me like McKean put more of himself into it. On the other hand, McKean had animators.

How is it different than Labyrinth? All the acting was shit in Labyrinth, and the main character was written as a grotesque parody of teenagerhood. The story in Labyrinth is one of "childlike fantasy-living girl goes into fantasy world and learns fantasy sucks, decides to be a proper adult female homemaker for rest of life." The story in MirrorMask is "girl stuck living someone else's fantasy hates it and enters a more fantastical world, decides real-world fantasy isn't so bad." There's no relationship between Labyrinth's Sarah and her family explored at all; MirrorMask is all about that exploration.

I think that's all I have to say for the minute, which is probably a relief to everyone.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:28 / 08.02.05
Thank you. I very much appreciate you taking the time to exlain this further, especially after the heated tone the discussion had taken. Just for the record:


I may be gothy, and possibly a youngster, but I'm not a woman. Just wanted to make that clear.


I was referring to the character played by Stephanie Leonidas rather than yourself.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:44 / 08.02.05
There's no relationship between Labyrinth's Sarah and her family explored at all

I wouldn't say that, mind - we learn that Sarah has a stepmother with whom she doesn't get along, and that she has abreacted to her parents' divorce by refusing to "grow up" - choosing instead to retreat into a fantasy world. At the end, she has had to realise the limits of that fantasy - she has turned down the opportunity to get loved up by the hot fairy king, essentially, because of her responsibility as a carer - and has realised that the things she has been clinging onto as signs of her youth (and her glamorous but subtextually flighty mother) cannot provide her with any further insulation from the world.

But the end of Labyrinth sees her partying _in her room in the everyday world_ with the monsters from the Labyrinth, whom she has admitted she needs. So, is it a rejection of fantasy, or an acknowledgement of the need to mediate a relationship between the inner and outer worlds? For that matter, the words she uses to defeat Jareth (and thus to fulfil her duty to her family and foil the otherworldly labyrinth) are taken from the play she was rehearsing (on her own) - that is, the tools to escape the world of fantasy come not just from the toosl she was using to escape reality, but also from the theatricality of her absent mother.

There's a lot to Labyrinth...
 
 
madfigs #32, now with wasabi
16:02 / 08.02.05
Last night I had a dream that I met Neil Gaiman at the mall, then went over to his house for dinner. Afterwards, I was going for a walk along the seashore and fell into the ocean. I went back to the house and tried to find a place to change my clothes, but there were people in all the rooms. Then I woke up and I was late for work.

So the moral of this story is, don't read Barbelith and watch Monty Python right before bedtime. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:56 / 08.02.05
There's a lot to Labyrinth...

Yes, but is there a thread on it? We need a thread on it.

Also, (when) is Mirrormask coming out in the UK? I'm insanely excited about the idea of a third movie in the Dark Crystal/Labyrinth... um, trilogy? Mould? Arena? Whatever.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:51 / 08.02.05
You're right. We so need a thread on Labyrinth. I don't know what kind of crack I am on not to have realised this need. It. Must. Happen.

Keith: I'm an extra - may or may not be in the final cut. May or may not have an ibis head.
 
 
*
02:42 / 09.02.05
Thanks for the clarification, Haus.

Yeah, you're probably right about the balance between fantasy and everyday life in Labyrinth; I misremembered me the party scene at the end. However, I still think in light of the fact that there's almost no interaction between Sarah and her parents in the movie, it doesn't do as much with that relationship as there is in Mirrormask. The relationship between Sarah and her stepmother seems more simplistic to me, as if there's less to it or it's just not explored in any depth. Of course, that may be because I haven't explored it in any depth myself. I can't find Sarah likable at any point in the film; I just want to beat her with things. Whereas Helena definitely has issues but I don't find myself wanting to beat her with things as much. I think that's my extremely limited measurement for a decent protagonist-- if I want to beat them throughout the whole movie it's a bad sign.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:15 / 09.02.05
You probably want to avoid Blakes 7.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
00:57 / 10.02.05
Blake's 7? Now THERE's a thread worth reviving!
 
 
+#'s, - names
20:22 / 10.02.05
this might be considered threadrot, but is there any information about the wide theatrical release of this film? as in, when can i go see it?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
13:16 / 11.02.05
Give Neil a call, I figure he'll be willing to watch it again with you.

And that's my way of saying direct to video release. I am right on that, right?
 
 
Jack Fear
14:25 / 11.02.05
That would be why the website says COMING SOON TO THEATERS in big fuck-off letters, then, eh?

Christ, does nobody bother to follow the links anymore?
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
16:16 / 11.02.05
Was this board EVER fun to come to?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:59 / 11.02.05
Sometimes I wonder that myself, son.
 
 
Triplets
22:10 / 11.02.05
Woah, the snark, the dissertation-esque replies. Haus, entity is like a younger you, viewed through a Nail Gaiman cut-out mask.

He's your MirrorMask, and I claim my £10 pounds.
 
 
*
00:29 / 15.02.05
Thanks for that extremely simplistic and utterly puzzling summation, TRIPLETS.
 
 
Warewullf
17:49 / 16.06.05
New trailer here.

So, does this look a bit crap to anyone else?

I thought the thinking behind this was to create a movie in a similar vein to "Labyrinth" and "Dark Crystal." Both of those movies had a very solid, "real" feel to them. This looks, well, like CGI on a green-screen. None of it looks "real" or feels like it has any weight to it. When I heard it was a Henson production, I was hoping for "Farscape" style effects and monsters, not slightly out-dated looking CG models.

But hey, I hate to judge something before I actually see it so who knows, it might be good! (I really hope it is!)
 
  

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